I have just joined this esteemed group - wanted my first email to be good, but this is a killer! The 9/7 and 10/6 super JOB at Stratosphere all read 8/5. Please don't shoot the messanger. George and i were there today and put money in without even reading the glass, took it for granted until the credits didn't add up. There was a giant clinking sound from our machines.
Bonnie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mothra wrote:
I have just joined this esteemed group - wanted my first email to be
good, but this is a killer! The 9/7 and 10/6 super JOB at
Stratosphere all read 8/5.
Now this should be good for the drama of the month ... watching the
dialogue on this report play out and waiting for confirmation.
Surely the Strat is considered the holy of holies when it comes to the
mecca of full-pay video poker. If it can be defiled than surely no
venue is sacred!
- Harry
Did anyone ever notice I'm prone to hyperbole from time to time 
- H.
Aw Harry, get your tongue out of your cheek, and boo-hoo along with
me! Those "medallion" machines are my holy grail these days,
especially since I finally got "hosted" at the Strat.
Please just tell me that the 10/7 DB and White Hot Aces are
intact. . .
Marsha
--- In vpFREE@y..., "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...> wrote:
Mothra wrote:
> I have just joined this esteemed group - wanted my first email to
be
good, but this is a killer! The 9/7 and 10/6 super JOB at
Stratosphere all read 8/5.Now this should be good for the drama of the month ... watching the
dialogue on this report play out and waiting for confirmation.Surely the Strat is considered the holy of holies when it comes to
the
mecca of full-pay video poker. If it can be defiled than surely no
venue is sacred!- Harry
Gee, Marsha, those were TRULY heartfelt sentiments!
- H.
mcuddington wrote:
Aw Harry, get your tongue out of your cheek, and boo-hoo along with
me! Those "medallion" machines are my holy grail these days,
especially since I finally got "hosted" at the Strat.
There's a report on the Vegas newsgroup that Strat's 9/7 and 10/6 JOB is gone but not forgotten. They now read 8/5 according to the post which had not been confirmed.
----- Original Message -----
From: mcuddington
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:57 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Stratosphere JOB
Aw Harry, get your tongue out of your cheek, and boo-hoo along with
me! Those "medallion" machines are my holy grail these days,
especially since I finally got "hosted" at the Strat.
Please just tell me that the 10/7 DB and White Hot Aces are
intact. . .
Marsha
--- In vpFREE@y..., "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...> wrote:
> Mothra wrote:
> > I have just joined this esteemed group - wanted my first email to
be
> good, but this is a killer! The 9/7 and 10/6 super JOB at
> Stratosphere all read 8/5.
>
> Now this should be good for the drama of the month ... watching the
> dialogue on this report play out and waiting for confirmation.
>
> Surely the Strat is considered the holy of holies when it comes to
the
> mecca of full-pay video poker. If it can be defiled than surely no
> venue is sacred!
>
> - Harry
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Did the machines still have the "over 100%" medalion above them? If
they did, that's some major false advertising, or you might have been
playing their 8/5 bonus machines. If there was no sign, was the
bonus, double bonus and deuces games still over 100%? If these
machines have been removed, I see no reason to go back to the strat.
Thanks for the info -Russ
--- In vpFREE@y..., "mothra" <Mothra@l...> wrote:
I have just joined this esteemed group - wanted my first email to
be good, but this is a killer! The 9/7 and 10/6 super JOB at
Stratosphere all read 8/5. Please don't shoot the messanger. George
and i were there today and put money in without even reading the
glass, took it for granted until the credits didn't add up. There was
a giant clinking sound from our machines.
Bonnie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On the subject of "over 100%", there are MANY such signs in various
casinos where the sign is wrong. It seems that they add the slot card
or progression rate to get to that figure. Gaming seems to look the
other way.
On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:43:50 -0000, you wrote:
Did the machines still have the "over 100%" medalion above them? If
they did, that's some major false advertising, or you might have been
playing their 8/5 bonus machines. If there was no sign, was the
bonus, double bonus and deuces games still over 100%? If these
machines have been removed, I see no reason to go back to the strat.
Thanks for the info -Russ--- In vpFREE@y..., "mothra" <Mothra@l...> wrote:
I have just joined this esteemed group - wanted my first email to
be good, but this is a killer! The 9/7 and 10/6 super JOB at
Stratosphere all read 8/5. Please don't shoot the messanger. George
and i were there today and put money in without even reading the
glass, took it for granted until the credits didn't add up. There was
a giant clinking sound from our machines.Bonnie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
vpFREE Home Page:
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Elliott L. Shapiro wrote:
On the subject of "over 100%", there are MANY such signs in various
casinos where the sign is wrong. It seems that they add the slot
card or progression rate to get to that figure. Gaming seems to look
the other way.
While I won't argue that it may be somewhat misleading, labeling a
99.5% base game with a 1% progessive rate as "over 100%" is accurate.
This certainly is not intuitive. The best way to arrive at this
conclusion is to look at the case where you are the lone player on
this progressive.
Let's say that you begin playing with the meter at reset and the
return is 99.5%. From then on, 1% of each wager is added to the
progressive until you hit the jackpot. An analogous way to look at
this play is that $.99 of each dollar played is wagered on the game
and $.01 is deposited in the progressive jackpot for "withdrawal" when
you hit it. Looked at this way, the jackpot remains unchanged and you
are now wagering a reduced amount toward it, yielding an improved
return that is slightly 1% over the base 99.5% return.
Not convinced? What more can I say?
- Harry
<<<
While I won't argue that it may be somewhat misleading, labeling a
99.5% base game with a 1% progessive rate as "over 100%" is accurate.
Not convinced? What more can I say?
You are more or less correct, but your view assumes that
the player will stay until the RF is hit. If he plans to play
for, let's say 2 hours, he loses roughly 95% of the money he
feeds to the meter. Since most players do leave within 2 hours,
it makes no sense to credit them with all the money they put into
the meter. I don't believe they should be allowed to be called
over 100%. This is a strange paradox, because the casino would
clearly lose money if all players played perfectly.
Suppose you sit down at a quarter NSUD prog at reset
and bet $1.25. Suppose the meter is 0.8%, which means
the meter rises to $1000.01. It also means the game plus the
meter are easily over 100% return. Nevertheless, you do NOT
have an advantage. To see this, just assume you ONLY play
this machine immediately after the RF is hit. After 40,000
or so such hands, you rate to wind up with 1 RF and one extra
penny from the meter, and about a 99.7% return on investment.
This just means that your current edge is a function of the current
meter position and the rate of movement has no bearing on your
current edge. It will, of course, help your edge increas faster
as you play more hands. So, that over 100% return sign reflects
the OVERALL return for the house, but does not address the issue
that individual players who elect to play the game near reset do
not have an edge unless they play until the RF is hit.
QZ
Damn, QZ, your example takes on philosophical implications. You can
have two players sitting side by side playing the exact same game, the
exact same way, but with different EV's depending upon their
intentions for play.
If they intend to play a limited session, they must exclude the meter
progression rate from their EV. If they intend to play until they hit
the royal, come hell or high water, they can include the meter rate.
Gee, imagine the player who's a little wishy washy and varies between
quitting on the next hand and playing until that royal hit. The
switch in state between each change of intention would take quantum
mechanics to properly quantify.
And of course, with your NSUD prog example, if we came upon a player
and didn't know his intention for play we wouldn't know whether to
chastise him for negative play or commend him for a positive find
(with some concern for the elasticity of his bladder).
Hmmm, I think there's thesis material for someone at UNLV here ...
- Harry
Quad Zilla wrote:
Suppose you sit down at a quarter NSUD prog at reset
and bet $1.25. Suppose the meter is 0.8%, which means
the meter rises to $1000.01. It also means the game plus the
meter are easily over 100% return. Nevertheless, you do NOT
have an advantage. To see this, just assume you ONLY play
this machine immediately after the RF is hit. After 40,000
or so such hands, you rate to wind up with 1 RF and one extra
penny from the meter, and about a 99.7% return on investment.
This just means that your current edge is a function of the current
meter position and the rate of movement has no bearing on your
current edge. It will, of course, help your edge increas faster
as you play more hands. So, that over 100% return sign reflects
the OVERALL return for the house, but does not address the issue
that individual players who elect to play the game near reset do
not have an edge unless they play until the RF is hit.QZ
At any rate, if a machine produces an expected payout in excess of
100% of wagers (with perfect play) so that technically it's a negative
game for the house, then I'm content with the house labelling the game
"over 100%" at all times -- irrespective of whether at a given moment
the EV for a player is in excess of 100%. (And so long as the EV is
over 100% for our hypothetical player who is going to sit and play
until that royal comes along, that 100%+ statement is just fine by me.)
- Harry
From Christmas through New Years will be our first lengthy stay in vegas.
We've NEVER been there longer than 4 days but we go at least 5-6 times per
year. For our typical 3 day trip we bring $3K+ and sometimes darn near lose
it all playing .25 FPVP.
We've NEVER come home ahead so nevermind the profits we hear from some
people. Mind you, in 6+ years of going that often between both of us we have
ONLY 4 royals, so that doesn't help.
I was wondering from everyone who's been there longer than a week, what do
you think the bankroll should be to last that long, given our horrible bad
luck???
This is for playing .25 FPVP, either DW, DB or lastly JOB depending on
what's available. We play with strategy cards to help us keep the edge.
Any playing advice to either smooth out the swings or help the bankroll last
longer (other than not playing) would be grateful. We do plan on actually
seeing some sights to help reduce the bad luck factor.
Thanks all
Richard
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My wife and I go for 7-night stays with a combined bankroll of
$300/day for 25c VP. We have been lucky, hitting RF's last week on
FPDW and on 10/7 DB. But we also racked up a LOT of break-even time
(and points) on 9/6 JOB. We stayed at Orleans and on bad days spent a
lot of time chasing the progressive RF's on the nickle machines
outside Sazio's (10/7 DB). Most days, one or the other of us will run
out of money, but usually not both.
We used to keep our $150/day each completely separate but that has
changed. On 11/11 (a 2X point day) my wife lost her allotment but I
was up a little late in the day. I "loaned" her $60 and she proceeded
to hit a RF and then two $200 AAAA's to get back $1400! Pretty good
investment if I do say so myself!
I can't relate to your experience of consistently losing $3k in only
3 days of playing 25c VP - that seems beyond the bounds of mere bad
luck. I guess if that happened to me I would be inclined to step back
to nickle play for the first day or two, trying to preserve enough
bankroll for some 25c play later on. Hopefully you're due for some
RF's to catch up to the averages (OK, I know it doesn't work that way
but you should at least have a reasonable expectation of "normal"
luck in your future sessions).
--- In vpFREE@y..., Richard Boston <rboston@o...> wrote:
From Christmas through New Years will be our first lengthy stay in
vegas.
We've NEVER been there longer than 4 days but we go at least 5-6
times per
year. For our typical 3 day trip we bring $3K+ and sometimes darn
near lose
it all playing .25 FPVP.
We've NEVER come home ahead so nevermind the profits we hear from
some
people. Mind you, in 6+ years of going that often between both of
us we have
ONLY 4 royals, so that doesn't help.
I was wondering from everyone who's been there longer than a week,
what do
you think the bankroll should be to last that long, given our
horrible bad
luck???
This is for playing .25 FPVP, either DW, DB or lastly JOB depending
on
what's available. We play with strategy cards to help us keep the
edge.
Any playing advice to either smooth out the swings or help the
bankroll last
longer (other than not playing) would be grateful. We do plan on
actually
seeing some sights to help reduce the bad luck factor.
Thanks all
Richard
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Good try but still VERY misleading.
You and I KNOW its 99.5% ( or whatever).
We would KNOW what the meter rate was (if we clocked it)
The rest of the world have NO CLUE, and you know it. They would
depend on the sign. And that is MISLEADING
On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:04:02 -0000, you wrote:
Elliott L. Shapiro wrote:
On the subject of "over 100%", there are MANY such signs in various
casinos where the sign is wrong. It seems that they add the slot
card or progression rate to get to that figure. Gaming seems to look
the other way.While I won't argue that it may be somewhat misleading, labeling a
99.5% base game with a 1% progessive rate as "over 100%" is accurate.
This certainly is not intuitive. The best way to arrive at this
conclusion is to look at the case where you are the lone player on
this progressive.Let's say that you begin playing with the meter at reset and the
return is 99.5%. From then on, 1% of each wager is added to the
progressive until you hit the jackpot. An analogous way to look at
this play is that $.99 of each dollar played is wagered on the game
and $.01 is deposited in the progressive jackpot for "withdrawal" when
you hit it. Looked at this way, the jackpot remains unchanged and you
are now wagering a reduced amount toward it, yielding an improved
return that is slightly 1% over the base 99.5% return.Not convinced? What more can I say?
- Harry
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The Hard Rock has NSUD on a progressive marked as over 100 %. At
reset, I defy you to come up with the shortfall.
The Frontier has such a sign on their 6 coin 9/6/4 Jacks or better.
It takes many $100's of dollars to approach 100% but their sign says
otherwise.
On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:53:11 -0000, you wrote:
At any rate, if a machine produces an expected payout in excess of
100% of wagers (with perfect play) so that technically it's a negative
game for the house, then I'm content with the house labelling the game
"over 100%" at all times -- irrespective of whether at a given moment
the EV for a player is in excess of 100%. (And so long as the EV is
over 100% for our hypothetical player who is going to sit and play
until that royal comes along, that 100%+ statement is just fine by me.)- Harry
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Elliott L. Shapiro wrote:
The Hard Rock has NSUD on a progressive marked as over 100 %. At
reset, I defy you to come up with the shortfall.
The Frontier has such a sign on their 6 coin 9/6/4 Jacks or better.
It takes many $100's of dollars to approach 100% but their sign says
otherwise.
I won't drone on about this topic. It does hold a certain
intellectual fascination, but from a practical standpoint I'll concede
that one should wait to play a progressive until the current meter
represents a 100% EV game without consideration for the meter rate.
However, if a game is on a casino floor on which it stands to pay out
in excess of 100% of coin-in should it be played "perfectly", isn't it
reasonable for the casino to label it as "over 100%"? I think so,
since theoretically any person can step up to the machine at any time
with the expectation that if they play until they hit a RF that they
will see a positive return on average. After all, we're talking
expected theoretical return -- not a guarantee of actual return.
Nonetheless, I'm sure you disagree and I've got no problem with that.
- Harry
Sorry for the confusion.
Standard 9/6 JoB.
Sixth coin qualifies for quad starts at $100
Sixth coin qualifies for ST Fl starts at $250 and the Royal which
starts at $2500.
These are all progressives.
Yesterday, Royal @ $4186 STFl @ $290 Quad as high as $104.
On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 20:24:49 -0600, you wrote:
Elliott L. Shapiro wrote:
snip
The Frontier has such a sign on their 6 coin 9/6/4 Jacks or better.
snip
What is that game? I think I can understand the 6 coin part; I assume
it means that you need to play 6 coins, instead of the usual 5, to
qualify for the larger JackPot. But what does the 4 represent in the
above, other than the usual 4 for a straight that all JOB's that I've
ever seen already pay? In other words, is this just simply 9/6 JOB that
requires 6-coins for the full JackPot?Cheers.
Bill Velek
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