vpFREE2 Forums

Strategy for WHA (White Hot Aces)?

As I indicated earlier, I ran TP+ on VPSM and for now use that. If you do
not have VPSM or Frugal then as I indicated earlier, 9-5 DDB will be the
closest. I do not consider it ethical to transmit a VPSM or Frugal
generated strategy. I know that "vpfree" has the basic strategies for many
games based on VPSM.

···

[Original Message]
From: traveler60657 <traveler60657@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 12/5/2003 5:31:42 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Strategy for WHA (White Hot Aces)?

Thanks everyone. Howard, I'm going to Harrah's in E Chicago and will
give the WHA a try. Since I don't have my own generated strategy, any
thoughts on which major strategy would give me the best return. Thanks.
Aaron

> > I
> >

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Howard Stern wrote:

As I indicated earlier, I ran TP+ on VPSM and for now use that. If you do
not have VPSM or Frugal then as I indicated earlier, 9-5 DDB will be the
closest. I do not consider it ethical to transmit a VPSM or Frugal
generated strategy. I know that "vpfree" has the basic strategies for many
games based on VPSM.

snip

I couldn't agree more, Howard, and so I hope you noticed that when Harry Porter said in an earlier post that he _assumed_ that I would be replying with a strategy prepared from either VPSM or FrugalVP, as soon as I read it I posted a reply that doing so would be a violation of the software license agreements. In other words, not only would it be _unethical_, it would probably also be illegal in the sense of violating intellectual property rights, and I am a staunch defender of a developers rights to the fruit of his/her labor. As an attorney and judge, I am acutely aware of such legalities. So, other than posting fragments of a program's data or display for purposes of discussion, it is definitely improper to use either of those programs to generate strategies for public dissemination, either for free or for a fee, without the permission of the program's author. In fact, FrugalVP is rather specific in prohibiting any such distribution of any strategy derived from the program, _EVEN_IF_TWEAKED_ by the user. And I seem to recall a recent announcement that there will soon be 'Frugal Strategy Cards'; I don't know if they are merely the printout from FrugalVP or if they have been tweaked. Obviously, if they are just printouts, then Jean Scott and Jim Wolf surely don't want other people competing against them with their own charts. And then when I see an announcement for a new book (or 'booklet') that was recently announced here (can't recall the fellows name) ... which is supposed to contain 7 strategy charts in a book which is priced at less than $7.00, I have to wonder to myself where those charts came from. ... Because I personally know how much work it takes to produce one, and there's no way I'd be selling them that cheap.

For those reasons, and because I am not entirely satisfied with the accuracy of either VPSM or FrugalVP, my strategy charts are based solely upon my _own_ personal calculations, and I have the files to backup my claim. And the fact is, the strategy produced by both of those programs isn't really much more than a 'list' of hands with little, if any, logical rearrangement to condense data and facilitate their use. This is not criticism of either of those programs; it is simply a fact that they both produce 'optimum' strategy, whereas I am striving for 'perfect' strategy, although I haven't decided for certain if that's the best way to go. I can see pros and cons for each. However, I have succeeded in combining _SIX_ (6) different paytables for JoB (so far it is for short-coin only) onto a _SINGLE_ pocket-sized card, using both sides, which measures about 3" x 5.5" and which is _100%_ accurate; i.e., it contemplates _every_ single penalty situation, no matter how small. Now, I'm going to have to eat one hell of a lot of crow if I'm wrong after posting this, but I'm that confident that I'm going to risk it. And despite that there are six different paytables on one card, I think it's still arranged in a simple and easy to use format. Very readable, too, even without my reading glasses.

Anyway, as soon as possible, I'm going to post a complete chart on a website as a sample, so folks can see what they'll be getting. I will announce when I finally get it posted, and everyone will be free to examine it to see if they can make be eat crow. :wink:

Cheers.

Bill Velek

Bill Velek wrote:

I couldn't agree more, Howard, and so I hope you noticed that when
Harry Porter said in an earlier post that he _assumed_ that I would
be replying with a strategy prepared from either VPSM or FrugalVP,
as soon as I read it I posted a reply that doing so would be a
violation of the software license agreements.

I erred in making far too broad a statement. Software rights must be
considered.

···

------

The vpsm Help file makes it clear that the software is not to be
shared. While sharing of output isn't specifically addressed, it's
not unusual that rights are extended to any proprietary product of a
program, even if modified.

I sense that Tom Ski might not object to "person to person" sharing,
particularly if purchase of the program is urged strongly. However,
broad distribution via a player group is very likely to be frowned on.

In any case, nothing should be presumed and written authorization
should be obtained, as I'm sure has been the case where stratgies have
been reproduced on some websites.

--

FrugalVP's documentation makes no bones about it. Strategies output
from the software are not to be shared in any form.

------------------------

Bill,

As an aside, I'm always interested in seeing details about the
analytic analysis someone surfaces. That's not to say I want to
compromise any intellectual "property" of that person, but a brief
description of the approach taken (VERY BIG PICTURE) is always
valuable in gaining insights into the game and how to think about it.

Not specifically referring to anything that you've put forth in the
past, I get a little frustrated when there's no background
justification for a response from which to evaluate it's accuracy.

Tongue-in-cheek example:

Q: "What's the answer to the universe?"
A: "42"

(Oops, I haven't violated any copyright protections there, have I? :slight_smile:

------------

Bill, I'm running a bit aside there but there have been two things on
which I'd love it if you'd briefly share some background on your approach.

The first is your work to determine an ER for Multistrike when played
optimally.

The second is your initial approach in developing your own game
strategies.

I'm not asking you to share anything that you consider truly personal
property for which you'd compromise the value if shared to any extent.
Just a peak in the door to get a sense of what direction you went in
each case.

Mind you, I'm talking just a PEAK -- for my sake. Give me just enough
so that I can grasp the basics and if I have any further questions,
leave them for me to ask. LESS is MORE here.

Can you take this and run with it (on a short leash :)?

- Harry

Bill and Harry. I agree that sharing strategy charts may be unethical,
but I wonder about the "illegal" part. After all the charts are derived
by a straightforward mathematical process, and so are the multiplication
tables that we all learned from and memorized in the fourth grade. Of
course the strategy charts are a hell of a lot more complicated, and you
undoubtedly need a computer to develop them, but any ten computer savvy
wizards should be expected to independently develop identical charts
because the math is identical.. Now as a non-attorney and a deplorable
computer person, I can't help but wonder what the difference is between
memorizing multiplication tables, and passing the knowledge onto your
children, and memorizing strategy charts and passing the knowledge on to
your friends. Thanks for listening. Dick Mck.

Harry Porter wrote:

Bill Velek wrote:
> I couldn't agree more, Howard, and so I hope you noticed that when
> Harry Porter said in an earlier post that he _assumed_ that I would
> be replying with a strategy prepared from either VPSM or FrugalVP,
> as soon as I read it I posted a reply that doing so would be a
> violation of the software license agreements.

I erred in making far too broad a statement. Software rights must be
considered.

------

The vpsm Help file makes it clear that the software is not to be
shared. While sharing of output isn't specifically addressed, it's
not unusual that rights are extended to any proprietary product of a
program, even if modified.

I sense that Tom Ski might not object to "person to person" sharing,
particularly if purchase of the program is urged strongly. However,
broad distribution via a player group is very likely to be frowned on.

In any case, nothing should be presumed and written authorization
should be obtained, as I'm sure has been the case where stratgies have

been reproduced on some websites.

- Harry

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Richard Mckenna wrote:

I agree that sharing strategy charts may be unethical,
but I wonder about the "illegal" part. After all the charts are
derived by a straightforward mathematical process, and so are the
multiplication tables that we all learned from and memorized in the
fourth grade.

Dick, I'm not so nearly concerned about potential illegality as I am
my own basic respect for the wishes of a software developer.

I value their efforts immensely -- particularly someone like (not to
be a sycophant) Jim Wolf who has demonstrated himself as particularly
anxious to benefit users by going beyond the basic efforts necessary
to develop appealing software.

About the multiplication table analogy: A strategy chart clearly
represents intellectual property. Developers have introduced unique
changes in their game charts, relative to more commonly found charts,
as a consequence of their own analysis which revealed strategy
refinements that improve expected return.

That's an effort that does merit credit and protection of rights.

- Harry

Doggone it Harry, I knew you'd shoot my theory all to hell.....sulk.. D
Mck.

Harry Porter wrote:

Richard Mckenna wrote:
> I agree that sharing strategy charts may be unethical,
> but I wonder about the "illegal" part. After all the charts are
> derived by a straightforward mathematical process, and so are the
> multiplication tables that we all learned from and memorized in the
> fourth grade.

Dick, I'm not so nearly concerned about potential illegality as I am
my own basic respect for the wishes of a software developer.

I value their efforts immensely -- particularly someone like (not to
be a sycophant) Jim Wolf who has demonstrated himself as particularly
anxious to benefit users by going beyond the basic efforts necessary
to develop appealing software.

About the multiplication table analogy: A strategy chart clearly
represents intellectual property. Developers have introduced unique
changes in their game charts, relative to more commonly found charts,
as a consequence of their own analysis which revealed strategy
refinements that improve expected return.

That's an effort that does merit credit and protection of rights.

- Harry

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Richard Mckenna wrote:

Doggone it Harry, I knew you'd shoot my theory all to hell.....sulk..

Don't sweat it, Dick. I knew sooner or later I'd manage to hit
something other than my own foot ... (which, of course, has put me at
severe hazard at times, given it's occasional proximity to my mouth).

- H.