Does anyone have a simple, high level list of the most significant strategy adjustments for this game vs regular bonus poker?
Strategy adjustments for A-C-E-S Bonus Poker?
It's a difficult game to analyze, because most analyzer programs use the
fact that order doesn't matter as a short cut in their calculation.
Obviously this is not the case for this game.
I never took an interest in this game, but if I did, I would look at certain
situations where the aces are "in position." For example, I would look to
see if I'm dealt two pair, with two aces in position, do I break that or do
I hold? If you create such a list, I believe there would be very few such
cases, and from there you can use vpgenius.com to help you analyze which
hold is better.
BTW - if my memory serves, you're more likely to get a royal than an ACE$.
Which is part of the reason why I was never a fan of this game.
Hope this helps.
···
On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 10:02 AM, caribou321 <caribou321@yahoo.com> wrote:
Does anyone have a simple, high level list of the most significant strategy
adjustments for this game vs regular bonus poker?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The only adjustment I know of for that game is to hold three positional Aces
over a full house. I do not think any other adjustment is needed.
That is based on the 8-5 version.
···
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
Jason Pawloski
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 12:42 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Strategy adjustments for A-C-E-S Bonus Poker?
It's a difficult game to analyze, because most analyzer programs use the
fact that order doesn't matter as a short cut in their calculation.
Obviously this is not the case for this game.
I never took an interest in this game, but if I did, I would look at certain
situations where the aces are "in position." For example, I would look to
see if I'm dealt two pair, with two aces in position, do I break that or do
I hold? If you create such a list, I believe there would be very few such
cases, and from there you can use vpgenius.com to help you analyze which
hold is better.
BTW - if my memory serves, you're more likely to get a royal than an ACE$.
Which is part of the reason why I was never a fan of this game.
Hope this helps.
On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 10:02 AM, caribou321 <caribou321@yahoo.com <mailto:caribou321%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
Does anyone have a simple, high level list of the most significant
strategy
adjustments for this game vs regular bonus poker?
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
See message #94399 for the start of a thread discussing this. Message #94529 in the thread, by doghand21, contains the exact strategy. Picking 3 correctly positioned aces over a full house is about it.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "caribou321" <caribou321@...> wrote:
Does anyone have a simple, high level list of the most significant strategy adjustments for this game vs regular bonus poker?
It's not quite exact. With an ace in a right spot, a ten, a king, queen, or jack, and at least one 6, 7, 8, or 9, none of which are suited with the ace, the ace is the best play.
···
----- vidi0t <vid@geocities.com> wrote:
See message #94399 for the start of a thread discussing this. Message #94529 in the thread, by doghand21, contains the exact strategy. Picking 3 correctly positioned aces over a full house is about it.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "caribou321" <caribou321@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone have a simple, high level list of the most significant strategy adjustments for this game vs regular bonus poker?
>
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This, of course, assumes that the jack, queen, or king is in one of the spots that the sequential aces needs.
···
----- Tom Robertson <007@embarqmail.com> wrote:
It's not quite exact. With an ace in a right spot, a ten, a king, queen, or jack, and at least one 6, 7, 8, or 9, none of which are suited with the ace, the ace is the best play.
----- vidi0t <vid@geocities.com> wrote:
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>See message #94399 for the start of a thread discussing this. Message #94529 in the thread, by doghand21, contains the exact strategy. Picking 3 correctly positioned aces over a full house is about it.
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> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "caribou321" <caribou321@...> wrote:
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Also, an ace with a flush penalty beats 3 to a straight flush with no high cards, one gap, and a straight penalty. The strategy in message number 94529 even has the error of putting 3 to a straight flush with no high cards, one gap, and a straight penalty above an ace without a flush penalty, which is wrong even without any extra pay for sequential aces.
···
----- Tom Robertson <007@embarqmail.com> wrote:
It's not quite exact. With an ace in a right spot, a ten, a king, queen, or jack, and at least one 6, 7, 8, or 9, none of which are suited with the ace, the ace is the best play.
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>See message #94399 for the start of a thread discussing this. Message #94529 in the thread, by doghand21, contains the exact strategy. Picking 3 correctly positioned aces over a full house is about it.
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> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "caribou321" <caribou321@...> wrote:
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Many thanks for all the corrections.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <007@...> wrote:
Also, an ace with a flush penalty beats 3 to a straight flush with no high cards, one gap, and a straight penalty. The strategy in message number 94529 even has the error of putting 3 to a straight flush with no high cards, one gap, and a straight penalty above an ace without a flush penalty, which is wrong even without any extra pay for sequential aces. ...
Besides the 4 A-C-E-S having to be in order, there can be no gap. Which means that the 4 A-C-E-S have to be in either the first four positions or the four last positions. There are 120 positions that 4 Aces can be in, 5X4X3X2X1 = 120. Only 2 positions will will yield the big payout. So the frequency for making 4 A-C-E-S, without strategy adjustments, is 5,106.325 X 60 = 306,379.5. With royal odds at 40,234.18, you'll make about 7.6 royals per 4 A-C-E-S.
And this reminds me of a Laughlin story. The Edgewater had a several machine bank of dollar 7/5 A-C-E-S Bonus Poker. There was a big fat meter on the 4 A-C-E-S, I don't remember exactly how strong it was, but it was really strong. In the spring of 2002, that meter got really high, above $80,000. But the play was way to big for my bankroll. I figured that the bank would get monopolized by a big bankrolled Vegas team but it never happened.
I remember discussing the play with a friend of mine, "Ray." Ray had come to Laughlin as a substitute school teacher, but wound up dealing blakjack at the Golden Nugget. And then he wound up getting quite an education in advantage play. And then he got a 6 figure inheritance. He was the biggest bankrolled player on the river that I knew. He was also wrapped up tight. No leaks.
Ray wound up cutting a deal with a friend/collaborator to do a $20,000 saver on the 7/5 A-C-E-S play. They were both busy on other plays on the river. So they decided to shoot at the play in their spare time, but they didn't necessarily have to be playing at the same time. They used the points on the card to verify to each other how many hands they each had run.
Ray's friend eventually hit the 4 A-C-E-S when the meter was up around $110,000.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Jason Pawloski <jpawloski@...> wrote:
BTW - if my memory serves, you're more likely to get a royal than >an ACE$. Which is part of the reason why I was never a fan of this game.
I love your stories, Mickey, but sometimes their accuracy sucks. That play, unless it got up again when you said it did, which is extremely unlikely because I played it a lot after the time it got way up, was in the summer and fall of 2000. I played it heavily, including on election night. It (or, more accurately, "they," since there were 2 meters, which, after going months without either of them hitting, both got hit on the same day, the first for $83,000 and change by the person you described early in the morning, and the second, the backup meter, for $69,000 and change, in the afternoon) got hit within a few weeks after that. There are some interesting, and expensive, strategy changes at those numbers, such as keeping 2 aces in sequence over a full house. The cycle with that strategy is around 260,000 hands. I was surprised at the lack of professional play, also. With the royal also progressive, it was frequently a 4% advantage and more. I later hit it for around $22,000, possibly around the time you described. Elliott Shapiro hit it in the first 4 cards dealt for around $46,000, probably a few years later. The Circus Circus still has a progressive bank, but the meter movement is tiny.
It was great to hear you on Frank's show last Thursday. I was expecting you to sound like a raving lunatic, so I was surprised at how normal you sounded!
···
----- mickeycrimm <mickeycrimm@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Jason Pawloski <jpawloski@...> wrote:
>
> BTW - if my memory serves, you're more likely to get a royal than >an ACE$. Which is part of the reason why I was never a fan of this game.
>
>
Besides the 4 A-C-E-S having to be in order, there can be no gap. Which means that the 4 A-C-E-S have to be in either the first four positions or the four last positions. There are 120 positions that 4 Aces can be in, 5X4X3X2X1 = 120. Only 2 positions will will yield the big payout. So the frequency for making 4 A-C-E-S, without strategy adjustments, is 5,106.325 X 60 = 306,379.5. With royal odds at 40,234.18, you'll make about 7.6 royals per 4 A-C-E-S.
And this reminds me of a Laughlin story. The Edgewater had a several machine bank of dollar 7/5 A-C-E-S Bonus Poker. There was a big fat meter on the 4 A-C-E-S, I don't remember exactly how strong it was, but it was really strong. In the spring of 2002, that meter got really high, above $80,000. But the play was way to big for my bankroll. I figured that the bank would get monopolized by a big bankrolled Vegas team but it never happened.
I remember discussing the play with a friend of mine, "Ray." Ray had come to Laughlin as a substitute school teacher, but wound up dealing blakjack at the Golden Nugget. And then he wound up getting quite an education in advantage play. And then he got a 6 figure inheritance. He was the biggest bankrolled player on the river that I knew. He was also wrapped up tight. No leaks.
Ray wound up cutting a deal with a friend/collaborator to do a $20,000 saver on the 7/5 A-C-E-S play. They were both busy on other plays on the river. So they decided to shoot at the play in their spare time, but they didn't necessarily have to be playing at the same time. They used the points on the card to verify to each other how many hands they each had run.
Ray's friend eventually hit the 4 A-C-E-S when the meter was up around $110,000.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I love your stories, Mickey, but sometimes their accuracy sucks.
Well, excuuuuuuuuusssssse, meeeeeeeee!!! I DID get the name of the town right! Take it easy on a poor old casino hustler, Tom. You know, they say the first thing to go is, well, never mind that one.
"Mickey's memory is goin' boys, and it ain't comin' back"
SUNG TO THE TUNE OF "MY HOMETOWN" by BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN
Tom Wrote:
That play, unless it got up again when you said it did, which is >extremely unlikely because I played it a lot after the time it got >way up, was in the summer and fall of 2000. I played it heavily, >including on election night. It (or, more accurately, "they," since >there were 2 meters, which, after going months without either of >them hitting, both got hit on the same day, the first for $83,000 >and change by the person you described early in the morning, and the >second, the backup meter, for $69,000 and change, in the afternoon) >got hit within a few weeks after that.
You've actually been a big help here, Tom. Events and times can run together in my mind. My memory had put it at about the time of the Laughlin Biker Shootout. I was interacting quite a bit with Ray (real name not Ray but does start with an R) at that time. But it appears, with your added information, that it occurred a couple years before that. I remember Ray telling me that his buddy had hit the hand. As for the number it hit for, well, my memory was way off on that one. And the conversation must have taken place before the backup meter got hit, which I know suspect was hit by Ray.
Tom wrote:
There are some interesting, and expensive, strategy changes at those >numbers, such as keeping 2 aces in sequence over a full house. The >cycle with that strategy is around 260,000 hands. I was surprised >at the lack of professional play, also. With the royal also >progressive, it was frequently a 4% advantage and more. I later hit >it for around $22,000, possibly around the time you described.
I remember Ray telling me of the pain of throwing away the lower pair when the two Aces were in position. I appreciate the time and ability it takes to calculate the strategy changes in a game like this. It just goes to show the lengths real pros go to.
Tom wrote:
It was great to hear you on Frank's show last Thursday. I was >expecting you to sound like a raving lunatic, so I was surprised at >how normal you sounded!
I probably had a lot of vpFREEer's fooled here. Or, maybe, sometimes there accuracy in judgement sucks! Take care.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson wrote:
7/5 bonus poker , with or without ACES is a horrible game. Yeah, we like to talk about that lucky stiff who hit it for $75,000 - but what about those couple of hundred suckers who blew $1000 while chasing ?
For my money the best ACES were the 8/5 progressive ones at the Palace Station. Gone now, but these were almost always positive.
regards...Tom
···
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:34 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Strategy adjustments for A-C-E-S Bonus Poker?
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson wrote:
I love your stories, Mickey, but sometimes their accuracy sucks.
Well, excuuuuuuuuusssssse, meeeeeeeee!!! I DID get the name of the town right! Take it easy on a poor old casino hustler, Tom. You know, they say the first thing to go is, well, never mind that one.
"Mickey's memory is goin' boys, and it ain't comin' back"
SUNG TO THE TUNE OF "MY HOMETOWN" by BRUCE SPRINGSTEENTom Wrote:
That play, unless it got up again when you said it did, which is >extremely unlikely because I played it a lot after the time it got >way up, was in the summer and fall of 2000. I played it heavily, >including on election night. It (or, more accurately, "they," since >there were 2 meters, which, after going months without either of >them hitting, both got hit on the same day, the first for $83,000 >and change by the person you described early in the morning, and the >second, the backup meter, for $69,000 and change, in the afternoon) >got hit within a few weeks after that.You've actually been a big help here, Tom. Events and times can run together in my mind. My memory had put it at about the time of the Laughlin Biker Shootout. I was interacting quite a bit with Ray (real name not Ray but does start with an R) at that time. But it appears, with your added information, that it occurred a couple years before that. I remember Ray telling me that his buddy had hit the hand. As for the number it hit for, well, my memory was way off on that one. And the conversation must have taken place before the backup meter got hit, which I know suspect was hit by Ray.
Tom wrote:
There are some interesting, and expensive, strategy changes at those >numbers, such as keeping 2 aces in sequence over a full house. The >cycle with that strategy is around 260,000 hands. I was surprised >at the lack of professional play, also. With the royal also >progressive, it was frequently a 4% advantage and more. I later hit >it for around $22,000, possibly around the time you described.I remember Ray telling me of the pain of throwing away the lower pair when the two Aces were in position. I appreciate the time and ability it takes to calculate the strategy changes in a game like this. It just goes to show the lengths real pros go to.
Tom wrote:
It was great to hear you on Frank's show last Thursday. I was >expecting you to sound like a raving lunatic, so I was surprised at >how normal you sounded!I probably had a lot of vpFREEer's fooled here. Or, maybe, sometimes there accuracy in judgement sucks! Take care.
That machine hit was a newsworthy event. It was reported that it hit for $75,957 in May 2004. I don't anything about any hits earlier than that. I tried that game a few times looking for lightning to hit, but that game was just too rich for me.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson wrote:
>
>I love your stories, Mickey, but sometimes their accuracy sucks.
>
>
Well, excuuuuuuuuusssssse, meeeeeeeee!!! I DID get the name of the town right! Take it easy on a poor old casino hustler, Tom. You know, they say the first thing to go is, well, never mind that one.
Mickey's got a great voice and a great ability to tell oral stories or just engage in plain old conversation, which is somewhat of a dying art. Frank should get him on his show more often and Mickey should be putting some stuff down on cassette tape and trying to get on this radio show:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/432/know-when-to-fold-em
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:
>Tom wrote:
>It was great to hear you on Frank's show last Thursday. I was >expecting you to sound like a raving lunatic, so I was surprised at >how normal you sounded!
I probably had a lot of vpFREEer's fooled here. Or, maybe, sometimes there accuracy in judgement sucks! Take care.
I was just about to play when the backup meter had been hit. I recall it being hit by a lady whom I didn't recognize.
Memories sure do run together. My first recollection of anything on television is JFK's funeral, which I picture myself as watching in Alabama, although I know I was in Seattle.
···
----- Mickey <mickeycrimm@yahoo.com> wrote:
You've actually been a big help here, Tom. Events and times can run together in my mind. My memory had put it at about the time of the Laughlin Biker Shootout. I was interacting quite a bit with Ray (real name not Ray but does start with an R) at that time. But it appears, with your added information, that it occurred a couple years before that. I remember Ray telling me that his buddy had hit the hand. As for the number it hit for, well, my memory was way off on that one. And the conversation must have taken place before the backup meter got hit, which I know suspect was hit by Ray.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That machine hit was a newsworthy event. It was reported that it hit for $75,957 in May 2004. I don't anything about any hits earlier than that. I tried that game a few times looking for lightning to hit, but that game was just too rich for me.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hamstockman" <AB6PQ@...> wrote:
********
I too gave my donations, in $20 trip/lightening strikes increments, playing those white cabinet slant-tops. I never knew there were back-up meters. I do remember Elliott Shapiro stating that he hit the ACE$ either on this board, the Laughlin group or maybe privately, after I commented that it was hit.
So hamstockman, how did you find that $75,957 hit for May 2004?
********
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@> wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson wrote:
> >
> >I love your stories, Mickey, but sometimes their accuracy sucks.
> Well, excuuuuuuuuusssssse, meeeeeeeee!!! I DID get the name of the town right! Take it easy on a poor old casino hustler, Tom. You know, they say the first thing to go is, well, never mind that one.
********
Mickey, over on videopoker.com you have a long story thread. According to my notes, I too was staying at the Pioneer Hotel & Gambling Hall that Mon/Tues (April 22-23) nights right before the 2002 River Run- Harrahs gang shootout event. You were waiting for the new Acres slot card system/Double Time Jackpots promo to kick-in. I was oblivious to the possibilities. But I can confirm what you were doing that week of April 2002.
BS
We will indeed get Mickey back on to talk about some more targeted stories. This last time Bob wanted to focus on his FRB romp in Laughlin.
Next time I wanted to talk more about his overall career, what led him to it, and what lessons he can share to save us all from having to learn it the hard knocks way.
~FK
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote: Mickey's got a great voice and a great ability to tell oral stories or just engage in plain old conversation, which is somewhat of a dying art. Frank should get him on his show more often and Mickey should be putting some stuff down on cassette tape and trying to get on this radio show: