vpFREE2 Forums

Strat Question for MS STP JOB

#1

The STP multiplier only affects one line not all four. Divide the 6-4-2 rule by the multiplier to get the adjustment to normal values.
Ex: A 3x on the first line changes the 6 unit (30 coin) adjustment to 2 units (10 coin) for use with a strategy program.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: Harry Porter
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 11/7/2007 11:47:02 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Strat Question for MS STP JOB

bigfuspoker wrote:

I have a pretty accurate 9/6 JOB MS strat, but my question is this:
What kind of strategy adjustments to make for a HUGE multiplier.
Say, like 40X? I'm wondering if you revert back to the strategy
adjustments you make on the bottom line, if you don't have much to
draw to.

Say you are dealt Kh, Js, 2d, 2s, 6c

Hold the 2's? or the (2) unsuited high cards? Or always hold the
perfect strat play, which is obviously the 2's?

I'm interested in getting some opinions so I can decide what I'm
going to do in these situations. With the lower multipliers, I can
pretty much figure it out based upon the MS strat, but the huge ones
are a quandary.

If I understand this correctly, the game you're referring to is
MultiStrike - Super Times Pay ... where the STP feature is combined
with the standard MS game. The STP multiplier varies from 2x-5x,
which when combined with the MS top line 8x multiplier, can make for a
compound single hand multiplier of 40x.

The two multipliers actually impact strategy independently -- and the
STP multiplier calls for no strategy change because it uniformly
adjusts the ER of all 4 lines ... in other words, the STP multiplier
acts as a constant. Consequently, strategy for MS-STP is identical to
that of standard MS and no adjustment is necessary, even when the 5x
STP multiplier rears its head.

- Harry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

howard.w.stern:

The STP multiplier only affects one line not all four. Divide the
6-4-2 rule by the multiplier to get the adjustment to normal values.
Ex: A 3x on the first line changes the 6 unit (30 coin) adjustment to
2 units (10 coin) for use with a strategy program.

You're absolutely on target, of course, Howard. (and I should hold
off on distracted replies to questions of this sort before I embarrass
myself further :wink:

I don't have first hand play experience with the game, AC paytables
being weaker than I desire. Still, it should have been a no-brainer
that the STP multiplier changes current line EV , altering the optimal
strategy that maximizes the expected win for the current line combined
with the additional EV from level advancement.

The consequence is that for each level, optimal play strategy would
potentially vary for each of the 4 possible STP values.

From a practical perspective it would suffice to make the following
adjustments (in the interest of simplicity -- without giving up too
much EV). For Catherine (bigfuspoker):

Bottom line (Level 1) STP multiplier:
- play Level 3 strategy for 2x or 3x STP multiplier,
- play Level 4 (normal) strategy for 4x or 5x.

Second line (Level 2) STP multiplier:
- play Level 3 strategy for 2x STP multiplier
- play Level 4 strategy for 3x/4x/5x.

Third line (Level 3) STP multiplier:
- play Level 4 strategy.

Howard, give me a sanity check on this, ok? :wink: Thanks.

- Harry

#3

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:

howard.w.stern:
> The STP multiplier only affects one line not all four. Divide the
> 6-4-2 rule by the multiplier to get the adjustment to normal

values.

> Ex: A 3x on the first line changes the 6 unit (30 coin)

adjustment to

> 2 units (10 coin) for use with a strategy program.

You're absolutely on target, of course, Howard. (and I should hold
off on distracted replies to questions of this sort before I

embarrass

myself further :wink:

I don't have first hand play experience with the game, AC paytables
being weaker than I desire. Still, it should have been a no-brainer
that the STP multiplier changes current line EV , altering the

optimal

strategy that maximizes the expected win for the current line

combined

with the additional EV from level advancement.

The consequence is that for each level, optimal play strategy would
potentially vary for each of the 4 possible STP values.

From a practical perspective it would suffice to make the following
adjustments (in the interest of simplicity -- without giving up too
much EV). For Catherine (bigfuspoker):

Bottom line (Level 1) STP multiplier:
- play Level 3 strategy for 2x or 3x STP multiplier,
- play Level 4 (normal) strategy for 4x or 5x.

Second line (Level 2) STP multiplier:
- play Level 3 strategy for 2x STP multiplier
- play Level 4 strategy for 3x/4x/5x.

Third line (Level 3) STP multiplier:
- play Level 4 strategy.

Howard, give me a sanity check on this, ok? :wink: Thanks.

- Harry

Changing to normal strategy too soon. I have not had to worry about
generating strategy charts yet as this game is not available in the
Chicago Area. Unless I am willing to play for $100 per hand the Five
Play in my area is short pay so I just play single play which has the
99.96% version of DBDW. You may want to use VPSM, Frugal or VPFW to
run all the charts following my previous suggestion and then pare
them down for simplicity. I would not due that until you find a
playable game. Unless the free-ride frequency is adjusted upward, the
STP feature actually hurts the overall EV.

···
#4

Thank you Harry and Howard for your replies. So it seems the higher
the multiplier, the further towards perfect strategy you go.

Ex: Never holding Suited A, High, little, T anywhere but the top
line, but if you have 20X Multiplier on the 3rd line -- you hold
three to the RF. Makes sense.

It is such a fun game. I'm going to indulge myself for a session or
two. I really appreciate your replies. I just want to be in the
ball park of optimal play, especially at the top lines with a nice
multiplier.

Thanks again. - Catherine

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "howardwstern" <howard.w.stern@...>
wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@>
wrote:
>
> howard.w.stern:
> > The STP multiplier only affects one line not all four. Divide

the

> > 6-4-2 rule by the multiplier to get the adjustment to normal
values.
> > Ex: A 3x on the first line changes the 6 unit (30 coin)
adjustment to
> > 2 units (10 coin) for use with a strategy program.
>
>
> You're absolutely on target, of course, Howard. (and I should

hold

> off on distracted replies to questions of this sort before I
embarrass
> myself further :wink:
>
> I don't have first hand play experience with the game, AC

paytables

> being weaker than I desire. Still, it should have been a no-

brainer

> that the STP multiplier changes current line EV , altering the
optimal
> strategy that maximizes the expected win for the current line
combined
> with the additional EV from level advancement.
>
> The consequence is that for each level, optimal play strategy

would

> potentially vary for each of the 4 possible STP values.
>
> From a practical perspective it would suffice to make the

following

> adjustments (in the interest of simplicity -- without giving up

too

> much EV). For Catherine (bigfuspoker):
>
> Bottom line (Level 1) STP multiplier:
> - play Level 3 strategy for 2x or 3x STP multiplier,
> - play Level 4 (normal) strategy for 4x or 5x.
>
> Second line (Level 2) STP multiplier:
> - play Level 3 strategy for 2x STP multiplier
> - play Level 4 strategy for 3x/4x/5x.
>
> Third line (Level 3) STP multiplier:
> - play Level 4 strategy.
>
> Howard, give me a sanity check on this, ok? :wink: Thanks.
>
> - Harry

Changing to normal strategy too soon. I have not had to worry

about

generating strategy charts yet as this game is not available in

the

Chicago Area. Unless I am willing to play for $100 per hand the

Five

Play in my area is short pay so I just play single play which has

the

99.96% version of DBDW. You may want to use VPSM, Frugal or VPFW

to

run all the charts following my previous suggestion and then pare
them down for simplicity. I would not due that until you find a
playable game. Unless the free-ride frequency is adjusted upward,

the

···

STP feature actually hurts the overall EV.
>

#5

Yesterday I received a card from Silverton, telling me I have extra FP twice this month, one of which is today or tomorrow! Talk about last minute - don't they know not everyone checks their mail every day!!!!

My amount of extra FP for each extra pickup period is $75, the same as my regular FP amount. I also got a coupon for $50 in food credit.

···

________________
Jean $�ott
The new " FRUGAL VIDEO POKER
SCOUTING GUIDE" and other frugal
products are available at my Web site,
http://queenofcomps.com/.

#6

Yesterday I received a card from Silverton, telling me I have extra FP twice
this month, one of which is today or tomorrow! Talk about last minute -
don't they know not everyone checks their mail every day!!!!

---I thought you once said..."A day without casino mail is like a day
without sunshine!" Be happy! LOl!

Scot

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
Jean Scott
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:01 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Silverton IMPORTANT ALERT

#7

<<I thought you once said..."A day without casino mail is like a day
without sunshine!" >>

Yes, I have said that many times. I wasn't referring to myself when I said it was short notice. We DO check our home mailbox every day, but many other people have private mailboxes that they might not check every day.

···

________________
Jean $�ott
The new " FRUGAL VIDEO POKER
SCOUTING GUIDE" and other frugal
products are available at my Web site,
http://queenofcomps.com/.

#8

I was kidding, but I think we all often get mail too late sometimes and end
up throwing away good offers from time to time. I have to laugh about it.
But there have been times when I have taken in a good offer to a casino
after receiving it late in the mail and they honor it. So you could try that
too!

Scot

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
Jean Scott
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:50 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Silverton IMPORTANT ALERT

<<I thought you once said..."A day without casino mail is like a day
without sunshine!" >>

Yes, I have said that many times. I wasn't referring to myself when I said
it was short notice. We DO check our home mailbox every day, but many other
people have private mailboxes that they might not check every day.
________________
Jean $�ott
The new " FRUGAL VIDEO POKER
SCOUTING GUIDE" and other frugal
products are available at my Web site,
http://queenofcomps.com/.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

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5:55 PM

#9

I was kidding, but I think we all often get mail too late sometimes

and end

up throwing away good offers from time to time. I have to laugh

about it.

But there have been times when I have taken in a good offer to a casino
after receiving it late in the mail and they honor it. So you could

try that

too!

I rarely throw away mail until it's past the expiration date of the
offer. I can only tell you how many times I've broken that rule,
because I just know I'm not going to be in that market that
week/month/whatever, when my close personal friend Mr. Murphy shows up
on my doorstep with a letter detailing a juicy offer from that market
which I just knew I wasn't going to be in, but now am making last
minute plane reservations for. You just never know.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Scot Krause" <krauseinvegas@...> wrote:

#10

<<But there have been times when I have taken in a good offer to a casino
after receiving it late in the mail and they honor it. So you could try that
too!>>

Good suggestion. I have done that MANY times.

···

________________
Jean $�ott
The new " FRUGAL VIDEO POKER
SCOUTING GUIDE" and other frugal
products are available at my Web site,
http://queenofcomps.com/.

#11

The strategy for this game has been discussed here, but I wonder what the ER is, for example, for 9/6 Job. Depending on the base game, MS or STP adds about .2 or .3 of ER. Do you add those two ER's when they are both on one of these combo games?

···

________________
Jean $�ott
The new " FRUGAL VIDEO POKER
SCOUTING GUIDE" and other frugal
products are available at my Web site,
http://queenofcomps.com/.

#12

Per Bob's article with MS pay schedules (http://www.igtproducts.com/IGTproducts/GameReview/MultiStikePoker/MultiStrikePoker.htm), 9/6 JoB MS returns about 99.79% when 4 hands are played.
   
  Per wizardofodds.com (http://wizardofodds.com/videopoker/tables/super-times-pay.html), add a factor of 1.00278.
   
  So I get about 100.067% for the ER of 9/6 JoB MS STP.

  JD

···

Jean Scott <queenofcomps@cox.net> wrote:
  The strategy for this game has been discussed here, but I wonder what the ER
is, for example, for 9/6 Job. Depending on the base game, MS or STP adds
about .2 or .3 of ER. Do you add those two ER's when they are both on one
of these combo games?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#13

The strategy for this game has been discussed here, but I wonder what the ER
is, for example, for 9/6 Job. Depending on the base game, MS or STP adds
about .2 or .3 of ER. Do you add those two ER's when they are both on one
of these combo games?
________________

NO, according to Larry Demar or LED Gaming, only about one of these is applied.
Here's what he told me to a similar inquiry:

"I wish I could say that the combined effect is +.6. Actually, it
is about the same benefit as either gimmick alone.

For example, 9-5 Jacks goes up to 98.79% on MS-STP
(from 98.45 standard). In our combination, the
STP feature is neutral and the Free Ride is adjusted
to give about the same return. STP is 1 in 10 games,
with values from 2X-5X and an EV of 3X."

#14

<<NO, according to Larry Demar or LED Gaming, only about one of these is
applied.
Here's what he told me to a similar inquiry:

"I wish I could say that the combined effect is +.6. Actually, it
is about the same benefit as either gimmick alone.

For example, 9-5 Jacks goes up to 98.79% on MS-STP
(from 98.45 standard). In our combination, the
STP feature is neutral and the Free Ride is adjusted
to give about the same return. STP is 1 in 10 games,
with values from 2X-5X and an EV of 3X." >>

My "gut feeling" was that this would be the case! And Larry would be the ultimate expert on this game since he invented both, I believe. I know he invented MS.

···

________________
Jean $�ott
The new " FRUGAL VIDEO POKER
SCOUTING GUIDE" and other frugal
products are available at my Web site,
http://queenofcomps.com/.

#15

99.81, give or take .01 or so. In general, expect the ERs to be
similar to the MS (w/o STP feature) ERs.

And Larry, if you're reading this, you have mail.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:

<<NO, according to Larry Demar or LED Gaming, only about one of these is
applied.
Here's what he told me to a similar inquiry:

#16

Jean Scott wrote:

<<NO, according to Larry Demar or LED Gaming, only about one of these
is applied.
Here's what he told me to a similar inquiry:

"I wish I could say that the combined effect is +.6. Actually, it
is about the same benefit as either gimmick alone.

For example, 9-5 Jacks goes up to 98.79% on MS-STP
(from 98.45 standard). In our combination, the
STP feature is neutral and the Free Ride is adjusted
to give about the same return. STP is 1 in 10 games,
with values from 2X-5X and an EV of 3X." >>

My "gut feeling" was that this would be the case! And Larry would be
the ultimate expert on this game since he invented both, I believe.
I know he invented MS.

This suggests that the two game effects are indeed additive. However,
if I understand, the average STP multiplier has been reduced from 4.05
of the original game to 3.0. Further, Free Ride values have been
tweaked. This reins in the return boost otherwise expected from the
MS-STP format.

- H.

#17

tomflush wrote:

NO, according to Larry Demar or LED Gaming ...

For example, 9-5 Jacks goes up to 98.79% on MS-STP
(from 98.45 standard). In our combination, the
STP feature is neutral and the Free Ride is adjusted
to give about the same return. STP is 1 in 10 games,
with values from 2X-5X and an EV of 3X."

I'm tossing out one additional thought here thought I hope not too
overly belabor (I'm making that an unpleasant habit):

Coming from Larry, the 98.79% MS-STP 9/5 Jacks ER would represent an
optimized strategy. Recent discussion has suggested that this would
be something other than the "6/4/2" adjusted paytable strategy by
which existing MS-savvy players might approach the game. This means
that short of a strategy change, a player will see something short of
98.79% (possibly an ER south of what they would expect on the standard
version).

Optimizing a strategy is tricky for, as noted, each multiplier could
call for a different strategy that differs from standard play
strategy. But since a multiplier is hit on just 10% of hands, more
significant is that basic strategy also shifts.

The possibility of a multiplier on the levels above the one you're
playing increases the EV of those levels by 20%. (For a single line,
the multiplier appears 1 in 10 hands. Over 10 hands, that's 9 hands
with 5 credit EV plus 1 hand with 15 credit EV = 60 cr EV ... vs 50
otherwise.) That added EV results in an optimized strategy shift --
you have greater incentive to advance.

The adjusted strategy can be found through the same method as the
"6/4/2" method ... you just increase the values by 20% (i.e. for the
30/20/10 5-coin paytable increments, you instead add 36/24/12). This
yields a strategy that optimally plays 90% of the game hands -- those
on which a multiplier doesn't appear on the current line in play.

With much less precision, I suggest that when a multiplier does
appear, that you shift strategy up a level. (e.g. when playing Level
1 and a multiplier appears, you play a Level 2 strategy). But that's
something which can be refined much further, as earlier discussion
would suggest. It's offered as a simple suggestion of a means by
which to readily play a little more optimally.

- Harry

#18

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:

Jean Scott wrote:
>
> <<NO, according to Larry Demar or LED Gaming, only about one of

these

···

> is applied.

*************************************************************

> > This suggests that the two game effects are indeed additive.

However,

if I understand, the average STP multiplier has been reduced from

4.05

of the original game to 3.0. Further, Free Ride values have been
tweaked. This reins in the return boost otherwise expected from

the

MS-STP format.

- H.

***********************************************************
Right.

Now, if the STP been cut to 3.0, does it now add .15 to return ?
(25% reduction) or my math too simple ?

Harry, do you have an idea what the MS now adds to the return with
the changes ?

NSUD still might be positive . SDB, BPD maybe not.

M J

#19

mklpryy24 wrote:

Now, if the STP been cut to 3.0, does it now add .15 to return ?
(25% reduction) or my math too simple ?

Not too simple ... just is missing some info.

The original STP feature increases ER by a multiple of 1.00278. This
number comes from the fact that a multiplier averaging 4.05x appears
once every 15 hands on average. On a game with an underlying ER of
100%, that translates to the expectation of a payout of 90.25 coins
for every 15 hands played (90 coins wagered). (90.25/90 = 1.00278)

For MS-STP the multiplier values and frequency are changed so that you
expect a multiplier averaging 3x once every 10 hands. For a 100% ER
game, that equates to a payout expectation of 60 coins for every 10
hands played (60 coins wagered). 60/60 = 1 ... it's a neutral
feature, until you take into account the impact on MS strategy.

Harry, do you have an idea what the MS now adds to the return with
the changes ?

NSUD still might be positive . SDB, BPD maybe not.

What I've previously indicated is that it's to be expected that under
a truly optimized MS-STP strategy, expected game return should be
roughly equal to its non-STP MS counterpart.

However, I look for Free Ride frequencies in a MS-STP game to be
reduced from those of the regular MS counterpart. If so, the
consequence is that if one doesn't optimize strategy specifically for
MS-STP, but instead plays a regular MS strategy, you'll end up with a
sub par expected return.

I may calculate this at a later point, but my guess is that playing
MS-STP with standard strategy from MS will cost you about .2% ER.

- Harry

#20

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:

mklpryy24 wrote:
> Now, if the STP been cut to 3.0, does it now add .15 to return ?
> (25% reduction) or my math too simple ?

Not too simple ... just is missing some info.

The original STP feature increases ER by a multiple of 1.00278.

This

number comes from the fact that a multiplier averaging 4.05x

appears

once every 15 hands on average. On a game with an underlying ER of
100%, that translates to the expectation of a payout of 90.25 coins
for every 15 hands played (90 coins wagered). (90.25/90 = 1.00278)

For MS-STP the multiplier values and frequency are changed so that

you

expect a multiplier averaging 3x once every 10 hands. For a 100%

ER

game, that equates to a payout expectation of 60 coins for every 10
hands played (60 coins wagered). 60/60 = 1 ... it's a neutral
feature, until you take into account the impact on MS strategy.

> Harry, do you have an idea what the MS now adds to the return

with

> the changes ?
>
> NSUD still might be positive . SDB, BPD maybe not.

What I've previously indicated is that it's to be expected that

under

a truly optimized MS-STP strategy, expected game return should be
roughly equal to its non-STP MS counterpart.

However, I look for Free Ride frequencies in a MS-STP game to be
reduced from those of the regular MS counterpart. If so, the
consequence is that if one doesn't optimize strategy specifically

for

MS-STP, but instead plays a regular MS strategy, you'll end up

with a

sub par expected return.

I may calculate this at a later point, but my guess is that playing
MS-STP with standard strategy from MS will cost you about .2% ER.

- Harry

Unless the free ride frequency is adjusted upward, the STP feature
reduces the overall ER from standard MS because the play of some
multiplied hands will go against the normal MS get to the next line
strategy.

The accounting for the STP multiplier is important in the strategy
so I think close to the optimum strategy would be to use the
36/24/12 strategy indicated earlier and divide that by any STP
multiplier on the current hand. unforetunately that requires some
work so I am waiting for a playable version to appear in my area (I
will not hold my breadth!).

···