The real question is whether casinos should be able to bar players or discriminate against them simply because they are skillful. The cleanest legal answer would be for the gaming Commission to institute a rule against it. I think I will call staff and ask about it.
···
----- Original Message -----
From: John F. Thomas, Jr., Esq.
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 8:06 AM
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Stations Taking More Anti-advantage player measures?
>Are you saying that just because a casino is a business you are
>visiting that they can ignore all privacy issues? Hmmmm.
Nope. I'm saying that because you know you're being monitored in a casino,
and that there's no reasonable expectation of privacy in what you're doing
out in the open on the casino floor (i.e., a casino could, if they wanted
to, simply train an "eye in the sky" on you and your machine, videotape you,
and analyze your play later based on what you were dealt and what you held.
They've been doing this to blackjack players for years and years).
Furthermore, there's no reasonable expectation of privacy using their
equipment. It's their machine, why should your use of it be secret to them?
Does that mean that they can listen in on the phone calls you make from your
room, or have a camera on you when you're in the shower? No, because you've
got a reasonable expectation of privacy when you make a phone call or when
you're in your hotel room, and you're not told you're under surveillance.
But I don't think that holds water when you *know* you're under all sorts of
surveillance on the casino floor.
And I don't think it changes the analysis to move the onus to the machine
manufacturers. They'll make them however the casino wants them (at least,
within the boundaries of the law, for the reputable ones) to provide
whatever data the casino wants for its tracking systems. If it's not an
invasion of privacy for the casino to monitor you, why would it be an
invasion of privacy for IGT to build a machine that allows the casino to
monitor you?
>> monitor your coin in and coin out and play time for that -- WHICH
>> THEY ALREADY DO,
>Well not everyone uses a players card and some folks have been known
>to remove their cards at appropriate times. Hence, your assertion is
>false.
Just because some players take methods to attempt to thwart a casino's data
gathering does not mean that the casinos are not gathering data. Hence, my
assertion is true -- they are certainly trying to gather that data.
And if you call yourself an "advantage" player (that term just makes me
snicker) you're using a slot card, because you're not going to squeeze every
last coupon for two-for-one senior citizen buffets on Tuesday out of the
casino that way. So not using a card isn't germane to this discussion.
>Well, if I were running a casino I'd care a lot. If it's just luck I
>want to keep inviting the person back. I know I'm going to make more
>future money off bad players than good players. In fact, this is
>really what the discussion is all about. In the past there hasn't
>been enough information available for casinos to make that trade-off.
>If the information to track your skill level was actually "easy" to
>obtain then the casinos would use it to their advantage. It would
>increase their "hold" so why wouldn't they?
Because, again, why would they bother to go through a lot of rigamarole to
track theoretical strategies when they can consider actual returns, and get
the same information.
Let's say player X has visited the casino 10 times. He uses his player
card, and plays $0.25 VP. He tends to play 4 to 5 hours a session, 300
hands an hour, and tends to play 9/6 JoB. Based on his coin in and coin out
during each of his sessions, the casino determines that on average, he's
playing at a 96% return level.
Now let's say player Y has also visited the casino 10 times, and has the
same play as player X. However, player Y's coin in and coin out determine
that, on average, he's playing at a 91% return level.
After 10 visits, you can conclude that player Y is more valuable to the
casino than player X. You can also conclude that player X is probably more
skillful a player than player Y. But since player Y loses more, he's going
to get more offers.
It's all about the average losses. And they don't need "advantage player"
strategy tracking to track average loss -- all they need is coin in and coin
out.
vpFREE Links:
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