vpFREE2 Forums

Stations Taking More Anti-advantage player measures?

#1

Have to disagree here. It's not an arduous chore. Once it's programmed in,
it's another daily report or screen alert that goes to management that is
ignored. In another industry, I used our database software to produce reports like
this 25 years ago on minis that were much slower than today's PCs.

For skill assessment, the report doesn't have to be comprehensive. The play
history doesn't need to be stored. All it needs to store is a tickler list by
game of the errors stratified into minor, moderate & major, the number of plays
and plays/hr. I'm pretty sure it's already here or they're just a small step
away.

The reason these reports are ignored hasn't changed. It's a common habit to
reward people by promoting them out of a job where they were fully competent to
a higher job without providing the training. Thus 2 new opportunities are
created.

NB I don't work in the casino industry so I haven't seen the software. From
talking to casino staff whenever a new system is put in, I've been able to get
a rough outline of the elephant. Many new systems are fraught with
interoperability problems that were common 25 - 230 years ago when vendors could force
you to swallow their proprietary software because there were few choices. Also
the software is often user-unfriendly which encourages you to bypass it
whenever possible. (This is our best hope -- the credibility of reports are inversely
related to the number of manual overwrites.) It sounds like casinos either
have a similar lack of choice or IT departments are able to push their own
agenda for eventual casino-wide control by being the only ones to use the network.

In a message dated 3/11/2004 7:50:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,
vpFREE@yahoogroups.com writes:
<<< Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:06:26 -0000

...
VP skill assessment is coming. As amply pointed out, it's hardly
rocket science. But it's a arduous chore to implement from the
hardware and software perspective and if clumsily done (and is there
any doubt about that? :slight_smile: it's likely to cause havoc and lost revenues
among the far larger non-advantage population.>>>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

From: "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Stations Taking More Anti-advantage player measures?

#2

TedChee wrote:

Have to disagree here. It's not an arduous chore.

I use arduous only to suggest that there isn't a turn-key
implementation at hand and isn't likely immediately forthcoming. In
getting from machine play to player reports there are a number of
independently developed cogs in the wheel.

Pulling it together is very feasible but my point is that casinos have
a lot more broadly applicable items in their house to put in order
which are more pressing and cost effective.

- Harry

#3

Have to disagree here. It's not an arduous chore. Once it's

programmed in,

it's another daily report or screen alert that goes to management

that is

ignored. In another industry, I used our database software to

produce reports like

this 25 years ago on minis that were much slower than today's PCs.

For skill assessment, the report doesn't have to be comprehensive.

The play

history doesn't need to be stored. All it needs to store is a

tickler list by

game of the errors stratified into minor, moderate & major, the

number of plays

and plays/hr. I'm pretty sure it's already here or they're just a

small step

away.

Your msg seems to indicate that the casinos have the ability to
track our play down to our accuracy of playing against thier defined
data base of correct play??

I cant imagine that untill recently there would even be a perceived
need for this, since the amount of skilled players is still very
small compared to the total universe of VP players that dont have a
clue.

Jim

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, TedChee@a... wrote:

#4

Not so quick, the "once it's programmed in" comment bears further
analysis. That's where it gets "arduous". Unless all information
about every hand played on every machine is communicated to a central
server, the only place skill levels can be managed is within the VP
machine itself. It really makes sense within the VP machine since
each hand can be analyzed and the only data stored could be the
player's overall skill level for the session. But if it's not done
there, you have a "arduous" programming job.

Now the big question is whether IGT, Ballys, etc. want to get into
this quagmire. I wouldn't if I were them. I'm not even sure it's
legal. Just the potential for a class action lawsuit about privacy
issues could make any VP machine manufacturer keep away.

Even if we give up our privacy rights when we sign up for a player's
card it may still be a problem. Not everyone uses a card. Bill Velek,
what do you think?

Dick

Have to disagree here. It's not an arduous chore. Once it's

programmed in,

it's another daily report or screen alert that goes to management

that is

ignored. In another industry, I used our database software to

produce reports like

this 25 years ago on minis that were much slower than today's PCs.

For skill assessment, the report doesn't have to be comprehensive.

The play

history doesn't need to be stored. All it needs to store is a

tickler list by

game of the errors stratified into minor, moderate & major, the

number of plays

and plays/hr. I'm pretty sure it's already here or they're just a

small step

away.

The reason these reports are ignored hasn't changed. It's a common

habit to

reward people by promoting them out of a job where they were fully

competent to

a higher job without providing the training. Thus 2 new

opportunities are

created.

NB I don't work in the casino industry so I haven't seen the

software. From

talking to casino staff whenever a new system is put in, I've been

able to get

a rough outline of the elephant. Many new systems are fraught with
interoperability problems that were common 25 - 230 years ago when

vendors could force

you to swallow their proprietary software because there were few

choices. Also

the software is often user-unfriendly which encourages you to

bypass it

whenever possible. (This is our best hope -- the credibility of

reports are inversely

related to the number of manual overwrites.) It sounds like casinos

either

have a similar lack of choice or IT departments are able to push

their own

agenda for eventual casino-wide control by being the only ones to

use the network.

In a message dated 3/11/2004 7:50:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,
vpFREE@yahoogroups.com writes:
<<< Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:06:26 -0000
   From: "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
Subject: Re: Stations Taking More Anti-advantage player measures?

...
VP skill assessment is coming. As amply pointed out, it's hardly
rocket science. But it's a arduous chore to implement from the
hardware and software perspective and if clumsily done (and is there
any doubt about that? :slight_smile: it's likely to cause havoc and lost

revenues

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, TedChee@a... wrote:

among the far larger non-advantage population.>>>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5

rgmustain wrote:

Now the big question is whether IGT, Ballys, etc. want to get into
this quagmire. I wouldn't if I were them. I'm not even sure it's
legal. Just the potential for a class action lawsuit about privacy
issues could make any VP machine manufacturer keep away.

I'm not sure that analysis of player play selections is any more
protected than other player data so long as not disseminated
externally. - a layman's opinion, of course. (With a myriad of
high-zoom cameras surrounding me I've long abandoned any sense of
privacy :slight_smile:

Analysis of play at the individual machine level would be the way to
go, with packets of summary data periodically transferred to the
central server. Commercially I expect that IGT, et al, would be very
interested in offering a product provided they could draw a profitable
revenue from it.

But as I've questioned, I have doubts that pursuing general advantage
vp play rates quite that high on casino agendas at present and expect
casinos will hesitate to accept the additional overhead until they
have broader issues better managed.

- Harry

#6

rgmustain wrote:

Now the big question is whether IGT, Ballys, etc. want to get into
this quagmire. I wouldn't if I were them. I'm not even sure it's
legal. Just the potential for a class action lawsuit about privacy
issues could make any VP machine manufacturer keep away.

Even if we give up our privacy rights when we sign up for a player's
card it may still be a problem. Not everyone uses a card. Bill Velek,
what do you think?

For something to be illegal, it must violate an established law, e.g., federal or state constitution, federal or state statutes, regulations of federal or state agencies, court orders, or principles of common law (in 49 states) or Napoleonic law (I think that's how they refer to it in LA). Your guess is probably as good as mine as to whether any particular state has enacted laws that would cover this, and since Arkansas -- where I am licensed -- doesn't have casino gambling, I'm hard pressed to even make any sort of a comparison. What I can say is that I don't believe that the U.S. Constitution would, by any stretch of the imagination, make this sort of a thing illegal as between casinos and their customers, because the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights in particular, governs the relationship between the _Government_ and the people. When we see the Constitution invoked in issues such as privacy in abortion rights, for example, it is because in those instances it is the _Government_ that allegedly violated privacy by making private medical decisions illegal, etc. When we see the government intervene in business dealings between people on the basis of something like racial discrimination, people often think that this is based upon the Constitutional right to equal protection -- but it is actually based upon statutory provisions rather than the Constitution (e.g., the Civil Rights Act). Now, that is not to say that it is absolutely impossible to somehow characterize this as a constitutional matter, because this is a seat of the pants opinion given gratis with no research and hardly any thought, but I would be highly surprised. Rather, _IF_ it is illegal for any reason -- including for purposes of protecting privacy -- I think it would be so only if a state (or perhaps by county or city ordinance) prohibited it. That is entirely possible. In some states, it is perfectly legal to tape record your own conversation with another person without informing them; in other states it is not. I'm sure that in many if not most states, it is perfectly legal to take photographs of anyone out in public, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that California might have a law to prohibit papparatzis (hell, I can't spell that). Anyway, all that I've just discussed is "criminal" violations, and of course you also mentioned the possibility of a lawsuit, which is another matter all together and has nothing at all to do with whether something is criminal.

So, as for the possibility of someone being sued for an alleged violation of their right to privacy, I think they'd have a tough time with that sort of a claim, but one thing is just about certain -- ANYone can sue ANYone else for ANY thing in this country, but whether they win is another matter. The other thing that is just about certain is that there is no telling WHAT a jury might do in this country. We've seen judgments against gun manufacturers who lawfully manufactured firearms, and committed no acts of negligence that _I_ can find; people are suing the fast food industry for making them fat; I figure it's just a matter of time before the drug companies get sued for making Viagra because some old fart will turn into a rapist or get some girl pregnant, which he would never have been able to do without Viagra, etc.

Bill Velek

#7

Bill,

Thanks for the update. And the education.

Now does anyone know if Nevada (or elsewhere) has any laws regarding
the type information casinos can collect.

Dick

...snip

Your guess is probably as good as mine as to whether any
particular state has enacted laws that would cover this, and since
Arkansas -- where I am licensed -- doesn't have casino gambling,

I'm

hard pressed to even make any sort of a comparison.

...snip

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:

Bill Velek

#8

I don't understand how you could call monitoring a person's playing
style an invasion of privacy. If a casino wants to monitor a
blackjack player's every hand to find out if he is counting cards or
using basic strategy, it is perfectly legal and not all that
impractical to do so. To protect their bottom line, the casino can
easily bar the player (for counting cards), or be far less generous
in granting comps(for playing basic strategy). I don't see how or why
a casino could not bar a video poker player (for playing 100%+ games
with perfect strategy) or be far less generous in granting comps &
cashback (for playing -100% games with good strategy).

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@a...> wrote:

Unless all information about every hand played on every machine is
communicated to a central
server, the only place skill levels can be managed is within the VP
machine itself. It really makes sense within the VP machine since
each hand can be analyzed and the only data stored could be the
player's overall skill level for the session. But if it's not done
there, you have a "arduous" programming job.

Now the big question is whether IGT, Ballys, etc. want to get into
this quagmire. I wouldn't if I were them. I'm not even sure it's
legal. Just the potential for a class action lawsuit about privacy
issues could make any VP machine manufacturer keep away.

Even if we give up our privacy rights when we sign up for a
player's
card it may still be a problem. Not everyone uses a card. Bill
Velek,
what do you think?

#9

I have never indicated it was a privacy issue for the Casino to
monitor someone's play. If you take a closer look at what I wrote it
has to do with the VP machine manufacturer monitoring your play and
then passing this information on to the casino.

Does this change the issue? Probably not, but it is a different
situation. Also, since state laws govern the VP machine differently
than casinos it would be possible for a state to make it illegal.

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "djmcosmo" <djmcosmo@y...> wrote:

I don't understand how you could call monitoring a person's playing
style an invasion of privacy. If a casino wants to monitor ... snip