vpFREE2 Forums

Stations no-mails after Gaming complaint

#1

Unless your error rate is VERY high or you are playing with a very low edge (under 0.5%) you will make MORE money playing fast even if you make more mistakes. If you do something like remove your hands from the buttons to take a second look, your speed will probably go down by 30-50%. But mistakes just don’t cost that much. Most errors that involve making the slightly wrong play cost well under $.50 on a dollar game. So in an hour, your errors might add up to $2-$3, but probably not more. But if the play is worth $25 an hour (Such as a dollar game with 1000 hph and 0.5% total edge) and you decide to address errors in the manner suggested, you wind up with an actual edge of between $12.50 and $17.50 an hour. But allowing the mistakes to happen still leaves you with $22 - $23 an hour. Even a $5 an hour error rate is better than slowing down by 30%.

Optimization is rarely about perfection. The same kinds of arguments can apply to the strategy one learns as well. In a great many cases, the time required to look on your phone app to see the right play will cost MORE than the “error” of making the second best play. Some folks also fatigue a lot more if the strategy they employ is too complex, which is about the surest way to create an unacceptably high error rate and may even cause you to play less despite having an edge, which clearly has a large impact on your daily expected value.

QZ

#2

There’s an experiment you can do, I haven’t done it in a while so maybe someone else can fill in the details. I think all the major vp simulators can do it. What you do is shut off error reporting on each hand and instead have it log a session. Now play a hundred hands as fast as you possibly can, don’t cheat yourself, just play fast and try not to spend any time thinking about each individual hand. At the end of a hundred hands, check your time and also check the error log and see how bad your error rate was. Repeat with another hundred hands and so on until you’re completely burned out on vp. Maybe try a complicated game like All American (USA poker) or 2 pair or better joker poker. Try it with annoying teeny and boy band music playing loudly over cheap speakers like in a casino. Try it with alcohol. See how fast you can possibly go and also see if you can figure out the fastest speed where your error rate is reasonable. This exercise can also be used to improve your in-casino play rate, with enough practice you may be able to challenge the fastest vp player in the world: Frank Kneeland. I think he was clocked at 3000 hands per hour or something like that and he claimed he never made a mistake. When they used to have speed tournaments in Vegas, he won every one. He was also good at endurance tournaments, I think I remember him winning a 48 hour one once.

#3

Saying something doesn't necessarily mean it's true. He also claimed his VP team was polite and would give up their seats willingly to others. I never ran into a VP team that acted like that. Frank seems like a nice fellow but his claims often sound like embellishment and a romanticizing of the past.

···

On Jul 12, 2017, at 2:13 PM, nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com [vpFREE] <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

the fastest vp player in the world: Frank Kneeland. I think he was clocked at 3000 hands per hour or something like that and he claimed he never made a mistake.

#4

James,

Do you normally find plays with more than 0.5% edge and no limit on how much action you can put through? Congratulations if you have those or better plays available. I have not found a play like that in a long time. Almost all my advantage plays involve playing a specific amount based on free play generated and/or earning entries for promotions. There is no need for speed so accuracy increases the profit. I think the day when fast play generated more money is long gone for most of us.

#5

The problem is that button press errors tend to be very large errors. Dropping a king from KKK42 is a pretty big error. In 9/6 JOB, that is about a 14.8 coin error.

Once you learn the basics of a game, the strategy errors are a small part of your EV loss. A single button press error will drawf your speed or strategy errors.

#6

Re: Frank Kneeland. Not locking up all the seats is a survival technique used by some teams. Ploppies that play when the meter is low can get mad and complain when they can’t get a seat when the meter is high. That can draw attention and heat to the team.

#7

I thought I’d add a few things here:

  • When the incident occurred, my friend was told that slot personnel could pay her if the amount in question was under $500, but any amount over $500 required management approval.

  • The Red Rock slot shift manager who made the initial “no pay” decision was Frankie Aragonez, who I understand had a fairly player-hostile reputation when he worked at the Suncoast. Having said that, I believe this is a Station policy rather than Mr. Aragonez’s personal decision. This is because she was no-mailed even in the second month after the incident despite her host presumably going to her defense and because she was also no-mailed at the Palms. I doubt seriously that Mr. Aragonez is making decisions for the Palms.

  • Her free play wasn’t free. It was presumably given to her because she had put in a lot of play on negative games in the past and was expected to do so in the future. Did she have an advantage play after factoring in the mail? I don’t know. I don’t know how much coin-in she had, her error rate, etc. But if she had an advantage, it wasn’t much of one, and if not, the casino may very well have done her a favor by cutting her mail off.

  • Slowing down play, carefully verifying holds, wouldn’t have helped here. According to her she did verify that the correct cards were held. One of the buttons popped loose when she pressed the Deal/Draw button.

  • Surveillance video would only help if the camera was pointed at the machine. Casinos are usually interested primarily in theft (mostly by employees) and cheating at table games, not machine malfunctions. I suspect the cameras at the bar were pointed at the cash register, not at the machine. While a request for video is reasonable in a case like this, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if the casino had none.

My friend’s personal situation is that she is a wealthy older woman. The $8000 is not going to change her life in any way. Why spend time, effort, and emotional energy pursuing something that is meaningless to her when she hasn’t got all that many years left, when she can just walk away from the whole thing? She actually got on an airplane to go visit her grandchildren and will miss the deadline to ask for a hearing. I think for her situation that was the right decision. But I still think this discussion has been worthwhile because it may help others in a similar situation.

I still think Stations made a really dumb business decision here. I talked to my friend on the phone yesterday and suggested she could recover her money by buying RRR puts! She got a good laugh out of that. I don’t think she will be buying any RRR puts. But I’m wondering if maybe I should!

#8

I believe this is a Station policy rather than Mr. Aragonez's personal decision. This is because she was no-mailed even in the second month after the incident despite her host presumably going to her defense and because she was also no-mailed at the Palms. I doubt seriously that Mr. Aragonez is making decisions for the Palms.

If you are no mailed by any Stations property you are automatically no mailed at all. I was originally make DNI by Wild Wild West. When they merged their card with Stations I became no mailed at Stations and Fiestas too. When Palms merged their card I was then DNI there also. When I tried to plea my case at Palms,I was told I wasn't allowed to speak to slot club supervisors.

···

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 16, 2017, at 5:02 PM, rickdrickd2002@yahoo.com [vpFREE] <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

#9

Vegasvpplayer said: If you are no mailed by any Stations property you are automatically no mailed at all. I was originally make DNI by Wild Wild West. When they merged their card with Stations I became no mailed at Stations and Fiestas too. When Palms merged their card I was then DNI there also. When I tried to plea my case at Palms,I was told I wasn’t allowed to speak to slot club supervisors.

A different friend of mine was no-mailed at Stations a long time ago. When Stations took over the Palms she was no-mailed there also. She spoke to her host at the Palms and the host agreed to try to get her mail turned back on.

Oddly, the next month she got a Station mailer, but has not gotten Palms mailers since.

I wouldn’t get my hopes up but it can’t hurt to try with your host at the Palms.