vpFREE2 Forums

Stations bounceback at Sunset

#1

As reported elsewhere on this board re Texas (the other Stations
that has the 1% bounceback promo), Sunset specifically excludes
EVERY decent machine in the house from the bounceback promo. It is
still worthwhile to play, say, 9/6 DDB for $5000 coin-in with a
triple (or better) points coupon, given that the bounceback turns
the game into breakeven.

The bounceback is available at 3 AM the next day (so you can't play
until midhight, then grab the bounceback).

They were announcing EVERY SINGLE $20 winner who got hit with that
random cash bonus they are offering. This was about every five
minuts or so. All I know is, when they have to announce their $20
winners, something's wrong....

The only positive VP in the joint is some .25 FPDW and a bank of 10
machines, five of which are .25/.50/$1 10/6 DDB and the other five
which are .25/.50/$1 and have 10/7 DB, 10/6 DDB, and 15/8 Loose
Deuces.

#2

So you would expect them to provide > 101% opportunities so they could look at the bottom line and remove all FP VP. I applaud their decision to exclude these machines. I wish Coast had excluded all FP VP from double points and kept them.

And you might consider that they also have FP DB and DDB stand-alone machines.

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At 12:01 PM 04/06/2003 +0000, you wrote:

As reported elsewhere on this board re Texas (the other Stations
that has the 1% bounceback promo), Sunset specifically excludes
EVERY decent machine in the house from the bounceback promo. It is
still worthwhile to play, say, 9/6 DDB for $5000 coin-in with a
triple (or better) points coupon, given that the bounceback turns
the game into breakeven.

The bounceback is available at 3 AM the next day (so you can't play
until midhight, then grab the bounceback).

They were announcing EVERY SINGLE $20 winner who got hit with that
random cash bonus they are offering. This was about every five
minuts or so. All I know is, when they have to announce their $20
winners, something's wrong....

The only positive VP in the joint is some .25 FPDW and a bank of 10
machines, five of which are .25/.50/$1 10/6 DDB and the other five
which are .25/.50/$1 and have 10/7 DB, 10/6 DDB, and 15/8 Loose
Deuces.

#3

So you would expect them to provide > 101% opportunities so they

could look

at the bottom line and remove all FP VP. I applaud their decision

to

exclude these machines. I wish Coast had excluded all FP VP from

double

points and kept them.

Bill, you just don't understand (and, amazingly, neither do they).
First, casinos make MILLIONS on "fullpay" machines. Look over any
random person's shoulder who is playing, let's say, 10/7 DB. From
A73 of hearts, K9 of spades, are they holding A73? It's the correct
play, but not one in a hundred players does it. And so on, and so
on. The cumulative errors made by the vast majority make these
THEORETICALLY beatable machines quite profitable. Keep in mind that
every single blackjack game they deal is theoretically beatable, but
you don't see them chopping the tables into kindling.

Therefore, the recent moves you see by Coast and Stations are a
misguided attempt to defend the bottom line, based on a delusion.
It's not unlike a department store RAISING all its prices in a time
of slow sales! What makes these fools think they are immune to
normal market forces? If Stations had included ALL of its machines
in the promo, it wouldn't have pissed off X number of people, who
arrived to play their favorite game only to find it had been
excluded. It also wouldn't have the ring of dishonesty that comes
with blaring out (BONUS GONZO MEGABOUCEBACK CASH!!!!) and then
whispering (but only on the machines that stink).

And you might consider that they also have FP DB and DDB stand-

alone machines.

There may be one or two .25 standalone 10/7 DB in the men's room or
someplace; I didn't check the whole casino. No doubt any such
machine would have had the exclusion placard on it as well. And if
they have 9/6 DDB, so what? I did mention that this game would be a
way to play the promo at a mildly positive return, so I suppose the
promo is a boon for chronic DDB players.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <billc140@m...> wrote:

#4

Sorry, Kevin but you are wrong. I am perfectly happy to play with an advantage of either .17% (DB -- yes, I know I don't make that standard) or .7 (I do play well enough). But Sunset would be not only cutting their own throats but mine as well if they included these machines with a 1% CB. First, I would never be able to get a machine, as certain people would play many, many cards at $1 10/7 at 101.17% return. Second, the casino would lose a significant amount of money and pull the machines. But put 5 pros on the machines at $45 or $50 / hour day after day and you are losing over $1000 / day per machine (>800 hands * $5 * .0117). Still not a lot of money but $5000 (5 machines) * 30 days would be $150,000 plus whatever you would have won from your normal customers. Not a good deal.

Since these machines are exempt from the extra 1%, with the normal comps via points and off-points this is not an attractive enough play for the pros. Ordinary people will play at ordinary rates ($7.50 / hour for 25c DW and around the same thing for $ DB). Stations correctly does not care about the few individuals who play well enough to achieve these totals, it cannot impact the bottom line.

I repeat that Coast would have been smart to retain all their machines and simply make them ineligible for 2X points. Most of us would not argue with the fairness of that decision. Yes, I like to get more than .25% but I also like to keep the machines that are profitable in the casino.

Simple economics; shear the sheep, don't slaughter them. And I have no problem at all barring pros who only play the really good plays or the significant progressives, especially those who play in teams. They only harm the recreational player and feed the paranoia of the Michael Gaughan's and George Maloofs of the world.

Kevin, your point is correct within certain bounds. .5% on top of built-in advantage can be significant and Gaughan was right in trying to eliminate it but acted in a counter-productive way. 1% is guaranteed to kill the goose.

B

···

At 09:02 PM 04/06/2003 +0000, you wrote:

Bill, you just don't understand (and, amazingly, neither do they).
First, casinos make MILLIONS on "fullpay" machines. Look over any
random person's shoulder who is playing, let's say, 10/7 DB. From
A73 of hearts, K9 of spades, are they holding A73? It's the correct
play, but not one in a hundred players does it. And so on, and so
on. The cumulative errors made by the vast majority make these
THEORETICALLY beatable machines quite profitable. Keep in mind that
every single blackjack game they deal is theoretically beatable, but
you don't see them chopping the tables into kindling.

#5

Oh, yes I forgot to correct your misapprehensions. They have 6 stand-along 10/7's and a bank of 10 10/6 DDB's (or at least I think they still do). And, yes, not being fools these are excluded. They are giving you a choice, you can play a low 99% machine and add 1% to it or play a 100%+ machine without the bonus. What can possibly be wrong with that?
It is fair to both player and casino to let the player have a small advantage if he or she can. How can any rational person get angry with this?

···

There may be one or two .25 standalone 10/7 DB in the men's room or
someplace; I didn't check the whole casino. No doubt any such
machine would have had the exclusion placard on it as well. And if
they have 9/6 DDB, so what? I did mention that this game would be a
way to play the promo at a mildly positive return, so I suppose the
promo is a boon for chronic DDB players.