vpFREE2 Forums

Stations and Fiesta

#1

A friend called me to ask if I had received my monthly mailers (I had)
because he had not. When he learned that mine had come through, he
called his contact at Station and was told that they had developed an
"advantage player" list, that he was "on it" and therefore would no
longer be getting the free play or multiple point coupons. In fact he
would no longer be getting ANY mail.

Has anyone else had this experience. The individual involved had been
at President level although, of late had played far less than that
requirement and apparently played deuces wild (for the most part)

#2

videopoker@joimail.com wrote:

A friend called me to ask if I had received my monthly mailers (I had)
because he had not. When he learned that mine had come through, he
called his contact at Station and was told that they had developed an
"advantage player" list, that he was "on it" and therefore would no
longer be getting the free play or multiple point coupons. In fact he
would no longer be getting ANY mail.

And how is being an "advantage player" determined? Most likely by using the computer to track strategy errors and determine the skill of the player. Simply selecting players who have made a profit would not be wise because that will include some horrible players who have just been lucky, and I would think that the casinos would definitely want them to return so that the casinos could get a shot at recovering its money in the long term. There was recently a similar discussion in the ACVPP YahooGroup, where I said that tracking player skill would be so easy to do and so beneficial to the casino, that I would be surprised if they were NOT doing it (tracking our play).

I hope that what has happened is not a sign of things to come throughout the industry, but I'm afraid that it is. I think that the days of the professional vp player are numbered; I just hope it doesn't become so bad as to completely ruin it even for skilled recreational players (which I think _most_ of us are). Personally, I have never thought in terms of how much money I can "earn" on an hourly basis by playing vp, and I think it is precisely that professional approach that is killing good play opportunities (but I'm not suggesting that folks should not have taken advantage of opportunities, because I sure would have -- but not day after day). Rather, what I am saying is that I have always been satisfied with a slightly negative return that I realize is costing me money each visit -- even in the long term -- in exchange for my recreation and a few comps that I earn. I always figured that if a weekend cost us a couple of hundred, it was still money well spent. I don't know whether the casinos view me as a profitable customer, but I can't imagine that I'm viewed as a liability or risk in the same sense as a pro. Unfortunately, when the casinos have the ability to easily look at the bottom line in individual cases and to sort mailings with their computer, it might be just as likely that a skilled recreational player will lose his/her $20.00/month mailing as it is that the pro will lose his/her $200.00/month mailing -- if the computer tells the casino that it will save money in both cases. Anyway, I think that this is just what happens when folks kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

Bill Velek

#3

It has been reported that someone who the Stations think is an advantage
player has been put on a "no-mail" status.

B. Velek on VPFree said: <<And how is being an "advantage player"
determined? Most likely by using
the computer to track strategy errors and determine the skill of the
player.>>

My latest information is that there IS software available to do this on the
market, offered by several companies, including one system called Mariposa
(sp?). However, I have seen no reports in casino management magazines, etc.
that any casino has actually installed it. Barona MIGHT have it - and the
Hard Rock MIGHT be set to install it in the future. Those are the only
casinos in the world being mentioned in the literature. This is a very
expensive software system - most casinos don't have enough good games in the
first place to even worry about advantage players.

I think Coast and Stations are over-reacting - and it may backfire - it is a
publicity nightmare for a casino when they get the reputation that they
don't want people to even have a chance to win. When/if someone verifies
this about the Stations, I am going to do my part in helping cause this
casino nightmare by publicizing it in Frugal Fridays. I tell it like it is:
When the Stations sent me a nice letter telling me in advance about having
to cut the points on full-pay VP machines, I didn't like the news but I
thought they were fair in the way they gave advance notice, unlike the
Coasts who did their slash-and-burn in the worst possible way as far as
publicity. When a casino starts cutting off people from mailings, etc. with
no polite advance notice - and according to a very subjective judging - they
are setting forth on a road of bad publicity!!!!!

More likely the Stations is just looking at the machines players are
choosing. So this is not an error-free system. Someone who only played
FPDW would definitely be suspect - but this would not distinguish between
those who have just heard that this is the best game to play (and God knows
I have been drumming on this for years) but haven't learned the correct
strategy and those who play accurate strategy. If they factor in with this
observation whether the person has won or lost, it might be a more accurate
observation IF they go back far enough in the person's play history. If
they go back for just a short period, this still would not be an accurate
judging.

If they look at players who only choose 10/7 DB, they are REALLY going to
make a lot of mistakes. VERY FEW people will be playing this accurately
enough to ever be long-term winners.

Cutting the points for good VP seems to me to be good enough for the
Stations. Barring players or cutting them off from mailings seems to be
more of a personal vendetta - like they are insulted by the fact that even a
very few people could ever manage to become long-term winners. This seems
to be the case at the Coasts. I thought Stations were smarter than this.
YOU NEED A FEW WINNERS TO KEEP THE MULTITUDES OF LOSERS PLAYING AT YOUR
PROPERTY.

(I think there are Station executives reading this lists - I certainly hope
so!!!!!)

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
for VP software and strategy cards; "frugal" books;
and the NEW "Tax Help for the Frugal Gambler."

#4

Barona must have some pretty sophisticated software. I used to receive mailings from Foxwoods which seemed pretty generic, but Barona's are completely customized. They told me, "people who play Double Double Bonus Video Poker also play ..." and they listed other games they think I might like.

[RANT]
A few things keep me away from Barona casino from now on:
1) the auto-hold feature. You can't turn it off and every single video poker game (except Big Split poker) had this feature turned on. I feel like a drone just pressing "DEAL/DRAW" over and over again, except when I disagree with the auto-hold feature. Multistrike's auto-hold does follow different strategies for each level, although I haven't compared it to what is published.

2) They announce all jackpots over $1000. There doesn't seem to be a tremendous amount of them, but too many to announce. You hear over and over again, "Ladies and gentlemen, Barona Valley Resort and Casino would like to congratulate it's latest lucky jackpot winner. We just had a $1125 winner on our 25 cent triple 7s machine. Congratulations from all of us at Barona Valley Resort and Casino…good luck!" I wonder why they even have music playing because you never get to hear even half of a song without being interrupted with one of their jackpot, "best blackjack in California" (hardly), or "best player's club in America" announcements (what crack are they on???). I used to get comps at $1 for every $80 coin-in at Foxwoods (1.25%) – they don't even come CLOSE to that at a paltry $1 for every $1000 coin-in (.1%).

3) They don't serve alcohol and the people walking around with carts serve flat soda and sour juice.
[/RANT]

Thanks for listening. Just wanted to make a few comments that I'm also sending along to Barona Casino.

I'll be in Vegas this weekend and have been studying!

--johnnyb in San Diego

[Jean Scott said...]

  My latest information is that there IS software available to do this on the
  market, offered by several companies, including one system called Mariposa
  (sp?). However, I have seen no reports in casino management magazines, etc.
  that any casino has actually installed it. Barona MIGHT have it - and the
  Hard Rock MIGHT be set to install it in the future. Those are the only
  casinos in the world being mentioned in the literature. This is a very
  expensive software system - most casinos don't have enough good games in the
  first place to even worry about advantage players.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5

My latest information is that there IS software available to do

this on the

market, offered by several companies, including one system called

Mariposa

(sp?). However, I have seen no reports in casino management

magazines, etc.

that any casino has actually installed it. Barona MIGHT have it -

and the

Hard Rock MIGHT be set to install it in the future. Those are the

only

casinos in the world being mentioned in the literature. This is a

very

expensive software system - most casinos don't have enough good

games in the

first place to even worry about advantage players.

I think Coast and Stations are over-reacting - and it may backfire -

it is a

publicity nightmare for a casino when they get the reputation that

they

don't want people to even have a chance to win. When/if someone

verifies

this about the Stations, I am going to do my part in helping cause

this

casino nightmare by publicizing it in Frugal Fridays. I tell it

like it is:

When the Stations sent me a nice letter telling me in advance about

having

to cut the points on full-pay VP machines, I didn't like the news

but I

thought they were fair in the way they gave advance notice, unlike

the

Coasts who did their slash-and-burn in the worst possible way as

far as

publicity. When a casino starts cutting off people from mailings,

etc. with

no polite advance notice - and according to a very subjective

judging - they

are setting forth on a road of bad publicity!!!!!

More likely the Stations is just looking at the machines players are
choosing. So this is not an error-free system. Someone who only

played

FPDW would definitely be suspect - but this would not distinguish

between

those who have just heard that this is the best game to play (and

God knows

I have been drumming on this for years) but haven't learned the

correct

strategy and those who play accurate strategy. If they factor in

with this

observation whether the person has won or lost, it might be a more

accurate

observation IF they go back far enough in the person's play

history. If

they go back for just a short period, this still would not be an

accurate

judging.

If they look at players who only choose 10/7 DB, they are REALLY

going to

make a lot of mistakes. VERY FEW people will be playing this

accurately

enough to ever be long-term winners.

Cutting the points for good VP seems to me to be good enough for the
Stations. Barring players or cutting them off from mailings seems

to be

more of a personal vendetta - like they are insulted by the fact

that even a

very few people could ever manage to become long-term winners.

This seems

to be the case at the Coasts. I thought Stations were smarter than

this.

YOU NEED A FEW WINNERS TO KEEP THE MULTITUDES OF LOSERS PLAYING AT

YOUR

PROPERTY.

(I think there are Station executives reading this lists - I

certainly hope

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@f...> wrote:

so!!!!!)
________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
for VP software and strategy cards; "frugal" books;
and the NEW "Tax Help for the Frugal Gambler."

-------------------------

Wow! I wonder how good this software is if the so-called "advantage
players", from the casinos point-of-view, decided to give up or
sacrifice some change (say $5 to $20) of their winnings each time by
playing the worst vp machine on the floor before calling it a day!?

Wouldn't that be one way of getting back to telling the casino(s)
that "yes I play the FPDW or 10/7 DB BUT, I also play your 6/5 JoB
(for example)".

#6

gilbert_616 wrote:

snipped stuff about casino software being able to identify advantage players

Wow! I wonder how good this software is if the so-called "advantage
players", from the casinos point-of-view, decided to give up or
sacrifice some change (say $5 to $20) of their winnings each time by
playing the worst vp machine on the floor before calling it a day!?

Wouldn't that be one way of getting back to telling the casino(s)
that "yes I play the FPDW or 10/7 DB BUT, I also play your 6/5 JoB
(for example)".

If I paid a programmer what the casinos are probably paying, I'd expect to know, at any given time -- and particularly at time of any mailings or requests for discretionary comps -- a complete breakdown of a player's play. Therefore, it you had a coin-in of $10,000.00 on an advantage machine, played with 99.9 percent accuracy, which is expected, long-term, to cause the casino to lose money, and then put in what can easily be seen to be mere 'token play' on a negative machine -- let's say $100.00 coin-in which is only 1 percent of your play on the advantage machine -- it wouldn't make a bit of difference to me. You're still a pro in my book. Now, if you lost as much on the negative machine as you are expected to win long-term on the positive machine (long-term via win/loss records and/or statistical projections), then I'd probably figure you were a good player having a good time, but not a pro. I play with high accuracy, but invariably I end up at the bar where the games are not so good but there seems to be more comfort and fun ... at least for me. I would expect a casino to think that I am a bad player, or at least not a pro, and therefore my perks will probably (I hope) remain intact, although without costing me an arm and a leg.

Cheers.

Bill Velek

#7

Now, if you lost as much on the negative

machine as you are expected to win long-term on the positive

machine

(long-term via win/loss records and/or statistical projections),

then

I'd probably figure you were a good player having a good time, but

not a

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:

pro. >
Cheers.

Bill Velek

-----------
Pardon me here Bill but, I'm confused!? >:
How can you be a good player if you are losing a lot on a negative
machine and still having a good time (after losing much)???
Sounds like you're saying that a pro is a good player not having a
good time...hmmmm if I was a pro and winning...i'll be having a good
time all the time!

#8

gilbert_616 wrote:

  Now, if you lost as much on the negative
> machine as you are expected to win long-term on the positive
machine
> (long-term via win/loss records and/or statistical projections),
then
> I'd probably figure you were a good player having a good time, but
not a
> pro. >
> Cheers.
>
> Bill Velek

-----------
Pardon me here Bill but, I'm confused!? >:
How can you be a good player if you are losing a lot on a negative
machine and still having a good time (after losing much)???
Sounds like you're saying that a pro is a good player not having a
good time...hmmmm if I was a pro and winning...i'll be having a good
time all the time!

Depends on why you go to the casino. If you go to _EARN_ $10.00 per hour by playing only positive machines (often only barely so), at some crowded bank of uncomfortable uprights, and never drink alcohol (not that this is necessary to have a good time, but I understand that _serious_ players don't drink even if they ordinarily like to) ... and then compare that to my going to _SPEND_ $10.00/hour to have a hell of a good time, drinking and laughing it up, and being satisfied with free buffets and an occasional free room. What I mean by being a _good_ player who nevertheless loses (and I never said "a lot") ... is that I am willing to play negative games for the fun of it, but I play then with high accuracy to minimize my losses. So, I will play JoB-9/6 with great accuracy, but I don't worry that having a few beers is going to impact that very greatly, and then later -- usually when the bands start playing, I will move over to the bar and play a negative game, but short-coin (which I know makes it even more negative, but conserves my bankroll as much as possible). At the end of the day, I might have spent 90% of my coin-in playing full-coin JoB-9/6, and 10% of my coin-in playing short-coin JoB-8/6. My long-term ER is definitely negative, perhaps even with bounce-back and cash-back, but it doesn't cost me so much that I worry about it. That's the difference, in my mind, between approaching the game as a job (for which you expect to be paid) and a recreation (for which you expect to pay someone else). So yes, it is definitely possible to be a good player, i.e., a _skilled_ player, and still lose money but have fun. And yes, I know that it is also possible to have fun making money as a pro. Comparing the two involves value judgments of what is more important, and how the two have fun and how much fun, and at what cost. Neither one can be considered as wrong. I was merely pointing out that I hope that my mixed method of play makes me less vulnerable to casino scrutiny.

Bill Velek

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote: