vpFREE2 Forums

some thoughts on the April 5 GWAE radio show

#1

the discussion was about a second royal pays double promotion on jacks or better

just off hand, I think if your goal is to maximize the return of the royal, then min-cost-royal strategy is the winner, in this case with no cashback, it would be at a royal of about 4900. Two average royal cycles would be 71,746 hands. Cashback would change that.

on the other hand if your goal is to maximize the per hand return, that would be a bit different. You would start with the strategy for the double royal, that would be at a royal of 8000. That would give you an EV of 3051 once you subtract the average cost to hit the royal. So, the strategy for hitting the first royal would be at a royal of 7051 (4000+3051). Hitting that first royal has that true net EV, so that's the strategy. Two average royal cycles would be about 65,817 hands.

you could also play a strategy with an average royal, that being 6000, and that would be somewhere between max royal return and max per hand return.

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#2

What's this "min-cost-royal strategy" and how would someone figure it out?
I'm still not sure quite how the cash-back effects the strategy (assuming the 0.3% CB points....not talking about mailers), unless that means you'd change the paytable to include the 0.3% CB (ie: Jacks or better would pay $5 + 0.003*$5, getting two pair would pay $10 + 0.003*$5, getting a losing hand would pay 0.003*$5, etc.). If the CB is good enough to play without the promo, wouldn't you just play it anyway, whether you're eligible for the promo or not (ie: You'd still play 1% CB on 9/6 JOB, whether the RF paid $4000 or $8000).

The way that I would have solved this "how to play" strategy, would be the way NOTI wrote below, where you figure out the EV of the 8000 coin payout on the second royal, then add that EV to the first royal. So for the first royal you'd play as if it was a $7051 RF, and the strategy for the second royal would be as if it paid $8000). I'm taking NOTI's word that the EV is $3051 for an $8k royal, I haven't checked a strategy generator for that number.

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On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 11:50 PM, "nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com [vpFREE]" <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

     the discussion was about a second royal pays double promotion on jacks or better

just off hand, I think if your goal is to maximize the return of the royal, then min-cost-royal strategy is the winner, in this case with no cashback, it would be at a royal of about 4900. Two average royal cycles would be 71,746 hands. Cashback would change that.

on the other hand if your goal is to maximize the per hand return, that would be a bit different. You would start with the strategy for the double royal, that would be at a royal of 8000. That would give you an EV of 3051 once you subtract the average cost to hit the royal. So, the strategy for hitting the first royal would be at a royal of 7051 (4000+3051). Hitting that first royal has that true net EV, so that's the strategy. Two average royal cycles would be about 65,817 hands.

you could also play a strategy with an average royal, that being 6000, and that would be somewhere between max royal return and max per hand return.

#3

shag wrote: "What's this "min-cost-royal strategy" and how would someone figure it out?
I'm still not sure quite how the cash-back effects the strategy ..."

It's the amount of royal that would result in a breakeven play, so for 9/6 Jacks its about a royal of 4900, for 9/6 Jacks plus 0.46% cashback it would be the same as maxEV strategy. It's used to play royal progressives, it's a fixed strategy relative to the royal and doesn't vary with the current progressive value. Most importantly, it gives you the minimum cost to hit a royal, hence the best return from a royal progressive. It generally takes a bit longer than maxEV strategy. Frank's book on "Secret World of Video Poker Progressives" has the details if you're interested.

vpFREE FAQ Strategies http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/V/FAQ_S.htm

vpFREE FAQ Strategies http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/V/FAQ_S.htm 1 1038.6796 Royal Flush 2 48.8386 Straight Flush 3 24.7133 4/Kind 4 23.7749 4/royal 5 8.9654 Full House 6 5.9856 Flush 7 4.2856 trips 8 3.9942 Straight

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#4

shag wrote: "What's this "min-cost-royal strategy" and how would someone figure it out?
I'm still not sure quite how the cash-back effects the strategy ..."

Just to provide a more direct answer: Take a strategy generator like the one on the wizard of odds. By guessing and interation, find the royal amount that gives a return of 1 minus the cashback. That's MCR (min-cost-royal) strategy.

Video Poker Strategy Calculator - Wizard of Odds http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/calculator/

http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/calculator/

Video Poker Strategy Calculator - Wizard of Odds http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/calculator/ Welcome to the video poker calculator and strategy generator. Javascript must be enabled in order for it to work. Here is how you use it: The first step ...

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#5

If you punch in a 4880 coin royal on 9/6 Jacks and hit the analyze tab it will show a return of exactly 100.0000%. Frank and the teams would use this strategy if 1) they had all the machines in the bank locked up 2) there wasn't another progressive somewhere to move the team to.

Its designed to milk the meter for all its worth. It drops the royal odds down in the 36,000's whereas the max EV strategy would drop the royal odds down into the 33,000's.

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#6

I had a total brain aneuryism in my post about the 4880 coin royal. Totally ignore that. I'm not above admitting when I'm wrong. That's what I "used to think" about how it's done.

A 9/6 Jacks progressive with a 1% meter and a royal that starts at 2788 coins is a 100% game. The 2788 coin strategy is the one used to milk the meter for all its worth. The royal odds are 47, 245.

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#7

mickey wrote: "A 9/6 Jacks progressive with a 1% meter and a royal that starts at 2788 coins is a 100% game. The 2788 coin strategy is the one used to milk the meter for all its worth. The royal odds are 47, 245."

Yeah, so, a 2788 royal should return 99%, which is 100% minus the 1% meter, and thus MCR strategy. There was no card club back then, if there was, that would come out of the 100% also. A 1% meter is similar to 1% cashback, though there are some special rules. You only get the full amount if you're part of the team or you play till it hits, even if you're not the one who hits it. Technically you don't get the meter till you hit it, but at that point you get the meter times the number of players, so it averages out, if you play till it hits. If you quit before it hits, you're only entitled to a share of the meter, on average.

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#8

I guess it seems like a paradox, but it's not:

MaxEV (max EV per hand) strategy doesn't change with the amount of cashback or cashback equivalents (cashback per hand is fixed), but it does change with the amount of the royal.

Min-Cost-Royal (max EV per royal) strategy doesn't change with the amount of the royal, but it does change with the amount of cashback or cashback equivalents (more hands played per royal equals more net cashback per royal).

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