vpFREE2 Forums

Sneaky Paytable Changes

#1

I agree that the players have to examine the full paytable to make sure that the play is as it seems, but I wouldn't blame marketing. It is the manufacturer that puts out the options, the casino decides what they want based on the payback not on the individual pay lines.

The net of it is that some of the paytables are indeed extremely sneaky.

Regards

A.P.

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--- On Sun, 8/2/09, mikeymic <mikeymic@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: mikeymic <mikeymic@yahoo.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Sneaky Paytable Changes
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Received: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 5:47 PM

Casino marketing knows you jump right to the FH and FL payouts when looking at paytables. So they've become more "creative".

#2

.....................................................................

I would not be surprised if this was a case of demand creats design. IOW, the marketing asks for a schedule that looks "good" while still not paying out too much and the manufacture complies.

Either that or the machine manufacture rep calls on marketing and says, "Lookee what we got. It will really fake out the fleas" and marketing gobbles it up

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Albert Pearson <ehpee@...> wrote:

I agree that the players have to examine the full paytable to make sure that the play is as it seems, but I wouldn't blame marketing. It is the manufacturer that puts out the options, the casino decides what they want based on the payback not on the individual pay lines.

#3

This made me laugh and laugh. The pay table is (by law) posted in full for you to review. You being too lazy to review a full table is not "marketing" (whatever that means, because marketing or casino marketing departments would have nothing to do with setting pay tables on video poker machines) being "crooked" - it's just you being too lazy to look at the full pay table before you sat down.

#4

The reduction of the 4k payout (5's-K's) on this 9/7 TDB machine from 250 to 200 has quite a damaging effect. The return is reduced from 99.57% all the way down to 97.99%. It is actually a poorer game choice than 9/6 TDB. I may not be smart, but I sure ain't dumb enough to choose a VP machine with that kind of return again. Especially at the $5 level.

I'm not sure I agree with your use of the word "lazy". Many of us have become conditioned to check the FH/FL payouts. I think it is valid to assume marketing knows we do that and appreciates the manufacturer making paytable changes "elsewhere".

But I will accept that taking that 1 1/2% hit the other night was my own fault. And it will definitely cause me to be more diligent about examining the ENTIRE paytable in the future.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgshook" <rgold79@...> wrote:

This made me laugh and laugh. The pay table is (by law) posted in full for you to review. You being too lazy to review a full table is not "marketing" (whatever that means, because marketing or casino marketing departments would have nothing to do with setting pay tables on video poker machines) being "crooked" - it's just you being too lazy to look at the full pay table before you sat down.

#5

i'd imagine the reason why FH/FL payouts are the most commonly changed
is that they're neither the big flashy numbers up top, nor the
frequent payouts down at the bottom. they're the least likely for a
casual player to notice.

in other words, what you're depicting as the straightforward and
aboveboard way of shorting games is in fact just a form of sneakiness
that has become traditional.

personally, i'm just fine with as many payouts being configurable by
the casino as possible. more choices for them to make == more
opportunities for them to screw up == more potential for profit.

cheers,

five

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mikeymic<mikeymic@yahoo.com> wrote:

I'm not sure I agree with your use of the word "lazy". Many of us have become conditioned to check the FH/FL payouts. I think it is valid to assume marketing knows we do that and appreciates the manufacturer making paytable changes "elsewhere".

#6

Errr, no.

The FH/FL payouts are changed because they represent that "sweet spot" there
a small change in payout corresponds to a small change (in the overall
scheme of things) in payback percentage.

A small change in the lower payouts, such as 2 pair, corresponds to a huge
change in payback percentage.

A small change in the high payouts, such a straight flush, corresponds to a
tiny change in payback percentage.

And while we're on the subject, I find it hard to believe that people who
can remember complex penalty card situations can't do something as simple as
evaluate the numbers next to 10 or so win categories. I think this is a
classic case of blaming the casino for an accidental player oversight.

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On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 3:00 AM, fivespot <fivespot55@gmail.com> wrote:

mikeymic<mikeymic@yahoo.com <mikeymic%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
> I'm not sure I agree with your use of the word "lazy". Many of us have
become conditioned to check the FH/FL payouts. I think it is valid to assume
marketing knows we do that and appreciates the manufacturer making paytable
changes "elsewhere".

i'd imagine the reason why FH/FL payouts are the most commonly changed
is that they're neither the big flashy numbers up top, nor the
frequent payouts down at the bottom. they're the least likely for a
casual player to notice.

in other words, what you're depicting as the straightforward and
aboveboard way of shorting games is in fact just a form of sneakiness
that has become traditional.

personally, i'm just fine with as many payouts being configurable by
the casino as possible. more choices for them to make == more
opportunities for them to screw up == more potential for profit.

cheers,

five

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#7

The FH/FL payouts are changed because they represent that "sweet spot" there
a small change in payout corresponds to a small change (in the overall
scheme of things) in payback percentage.

it's just as easy to short quads by 10 or 20 or 50 coins as it is to
short FH and/or FL by 5 or 10 coins. maybe it's coincidence that it's
become traditional to short the middle payouts, which the casual
player is least likely to notice, but i doubt it.

And while we're on the subject, I find it hard to believe that people who
can remember complex penalty card situations can't do something as simple as
evaluate the numbers next to 10 or so win categories. I think this is a
classic case of blaming the casino for an accidental player oversight.

i don't see any advanced players in this thread blaming the casino :slight_smile:

nor do i - reviewing the entire paytable every time i sit down is one
of the first lessons i learned about video poker. the original poster
got a $250 refresher course in this particular lesson.

cheers,

five

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Jason Pawloski<jpawloski@gmail.com> wrote:

#8

There is a $1, $2, $5 multi-denominational 9/6 JOB machine at Oneida here in GB that pays $239 for a Straight Flush with 5 coins bet,?instead of the common $250 payout. I have asked and no one knows "why" at the casino.? But it also only pays 20 for a straight, not 25

Seems such an odd "number" on a paytable.? Not an increment of 5 like all other full coin payouts on this paytable.

It is such hard work around GB to find the highest paying machines and none of them are full pay or close to it.....and I only have 3 locations to pick from that have VP machines.

But they did add an "Executive" lounge for their VIP players that has free drinks and serves a light dinner from 4-7 with flat screen Tv's, daily papers, magazines,?computers, and even?printers.? Very nice and rarely used so its really quiet.

The other thing they do is a "gift" each month such as free movie tickets, chocolates. free deluxe carwashes, etc. In addition to meal vouchers and cashback.? So while the paytable is "bad" for VP there are a few offsetting comps.? Hosts also stop by each night and chat briefly with those of us in the Executive category - offer free hotel nites, meals etc.?

And its 15 minutes from my house..............compared to airplane flights to go anywhere else.

Diane

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-----Original Message-----
From: fivespot <fivespot55@gmail.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Aug 6, 2009 12:30 am
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Sneaky Paytable Changes

Jason Pawloski<jpawloski@gmail.com> wrote:

The FH/FL payouts are changed because they represent that "sweet spot" there
a small change in payout corresponds to a small change (in the overall
scheme of things) in payback percentage.

it's just as easy to short quads by 10 or 20 or 50 coins as it is to
short FH and/or FL by 5 or 10 coins. maybe it's coincidence that it's
become traditional to short the middle payouts, which the casual
player is least likely to notice, but i doubt it.

And while we're on the subject, I find it hard to believe that people who
can remember complex penalty card situations can't do something as simple as
evaluate the numbers next to 10 or so win categories. I think this is a
classic case of blaming the casino for an accidental player oversight.

i don't see any advanced players in this thread blaming the casino :slight_smile:

nor do i - reviewing the entire paytable every time i sit down is one
of the first lessons i learned about video poker. the original poster
got a $250 refresher course in this particular lesson.

cheers,

five

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#9

There is a $1, $2, $5 multi-denominational 9/6 JOB machine at Oneida here in GB that pays $239 for a Straight Flush with 5 coins bet,?instead of the common $250 payout. I have asked and no one knows "why" at the casino.? But it also only pays 20 for a straight, not 25

Seems such an odd "number" on a paytable.? Not an increment of 5 like all other full coin payouts on this paytable.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, HRDiane@... wrote:

239 for SF results in a payout of $1195 on $5 denom., just less than $1200 W-2G threshold. 20 for straight seems right for 9/6 JoB.

#10

Usually those odd numbers have to do with preventing a marginally taxable event.

However this one doesn't seem to make sense in that context.

···

--- On Thu, 8/6/09, jeffcole2003oct <jeff-cole@comcast.net> wrote:

From: jeffcole2003oct <jeff-cole@comcast.net>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Sneaky Paytable Changes
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 4:41 PM

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, HRDiane@... wrote:

There is a $1, $2, $5 multi-denominational 9/6 JOB machine at Oneida here in GB that pays $239 for a Straight Flush with 5 coins bet,?instead of the common $250 payout. I have asked and no one knows "why" at the casino.? But it also only pays 20 for a straight, not 25

Seems such an odd "number" on a paytable.? Not an increment of 5 like all other full coin payouts on this paytable.

===========================================
239 for SF results in a payout of $1195 on $5 denom., just less than $1200 W-2G threshold. 20 for straight seems right for 9/6 JoB.

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