vpFREE2 Forums

Slot Tournaments

#1

Even though I have no slot tournament play, I get offers for slot
tournaments. The free ones usually come with free rooms and sometimes
I take advantage of them.
   Do any VP players on this site ever enter tournaments with entry
fees? For example, I received one from the Imperial Palace for June
18-20 with a $20,000 1st place prize. $10,000 for 2nd, and so on
down to $200 for 71st through 100th place. The entry fee is $425 and
it pays $500 for 21st through 40th place. In addition, $500 per
session will be awarded via $100 bonus drawings every 5 minutes for
the first five minutes of each session. There is a footnote saying
cash prizes may vary according to the total number of entries!
   I am not tempted to enter this tournament. However, I was
wondering if any VP player, not slot players, ever enter slot
tournaments that have entry fees. If so, are there some basic
parameters required for a slot tournament to be considered a
reasonalble risk? Also, I do not know if the above numbers are
normal, good, or poor for an entry fee slot tournament!

Thanks,
Bob

#2

futrend wrote:

Do any VP players on this site ever enter tournaments with entry
fees? If so, are there some basic parameters required for a slot
tournament to be considered a reasonalble risk?

They do and the decision whether to participate is similar to valuing
participation in many other promotions, such as drawings where you
receive entries based upon play.

The key determinant is determining your "equity", i.e. your expected
net win:
[Prize pool / # participants] - Entry Fee + (value placed on) other
benefits received (e.g. neat t-shirts, etc :wink:

Casinos often subsidize tournaments as promotions to draw players in.
Sometimes they merely return the total entry fee to the winners
(equity = 0). On occasion (perversely) the casino will look to profit
and actually hold back a portion of the entry fees.

Provided that a tournament presents sufficient equity to interest you,
you should also weigh the uncertainty of coming away with a win. A
tournament with $100 equity isn't likely going to be as valuable to
you as a $100 cash promotion.

I rarely come in the money and apply a very heavy discount factor :wink:

- Harry

#3

Thanks Harry for taking time to respond.

Reasonable risk not "reasonalble risk"...sorry about that!
  There is an asterisk in the offer mentioned. "*Cash prizes may vary
according to total number of participants" I assume you can not
determine "equity" with that fine print statement.
  Do have a general number that might generate your interest in
gambling (assuming equity can be estimated)?
   With your past luck, maybe you need a heavier discount. I never
considered a "fee" slot tournament, but maybe they they should not be
thrown away without first doing your suggested calculation.

Thank,
Bob

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:

futrend wrote:
> Do any VP players on this site ever enter tournaments with entry
> fees? If so, are there some basic parameters required for a slot
> tournament to be considered a reasonalble risk?

They do and the decision whether to participate is similar to

valuing

participation in many other promotions, such as drawings where you
receive entries based upon play.

The key determinant is determining your "equity", i.e. your expected
net win:
[Prize pool / # participants] - Entry Fee + (value placed on) other
benefits received (e.g. neat t-shirts, etc :wink:

Casinos often subsidize tournaments as promotions to draw players

in.

Sometimes they merely return the total entry fee to the winners
(equity = 0). On occasion (perversely) the casino will look to

profit

and actually hold back a portion of the entry fees.

Provided that a tournament presents sufficient equity to interest

you,

···

you should also weigh the uncertainty of coming away with a win. A
tournament with $100 equity isn't likely going to be as valuable to
you as a $100 cash promotion.

I rarely come in the money and apply a very heavy discount factor :wink:

- Harry

#4

futrend wrote:

There is an asterisk in the offer mentioned. "*Cash prizes may vary
according to total number of participants" I assume you can not
determine "equity" with that fine print statement.

Casinos include that clause as a safeguard against a sizable shortfall
in participants. Say a tournament has a $200 buy-in, 500 targeted
players, and a $150K prize pool ($100 equity). If only 200 actually
participate, the casino may be loathe to pay out the full $150K.

I sense that it's rare that casinos actually adjust prize pools. In a
tournament I once played, there was about a 40% shortfall. Because it
was a "everybody wins" tournament, the prize pool was reduced by the
minimum prize for the "no-shows". However, the prizes for those who
actually "placed" were left intact and the adjusted equity was over 3x
that under the original targeted participation.

The thing I'd beware of more than a downward adjustment in the prize
pool is the casino opening up the tournament to more people than
originally stated, without an appropriate increase in the prize pool.
I've seen reports of something similar in the case of other promotions.

Do have a general number that might generate your interest in
gambling (assuming equity can be estimated)?

For a buy-in tournament, I'll look at equity vs. buy-in -- $100 equity
on $500 buy-in is a lot more attractive than $250 equity on $2000
buy-in, considering either % comparison or relative magnitude of fees.
Peripheral variables factor as well (is this at a casino I actively
play (or want to)?, etc.)

With your past luck, maybe you need a heavier discount. I never
considered a "fee" slot tournament, but maybe they they should not
be thrown away without first doing your suggested calculation.

Free tournaments are a major slice of casinos promotions in AC, where
I play. Prize/participant can range from $5 to $200+, with invitation
based upon similar factors as other promotions.

If I set aside "everybody wins" amounts, I figure I'm good for about
$10 for each one I've entered (considerably below the EV :wink:

- Harry

#5

From: "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@verizon.net>

I sense that it's rare that casinos actually adjust prize pools. In a
tournament I once played, there was about a 40% shortfall. Because it
was a "everybody wins" tournament, the prize pool was reduced by the
minimum prize for the "no-shows". However, the prizes for those who
actually "placed" were left intact and the adjusted equity was over 3x
that under the original targeted participation.

At several of the casinos I play at, they adjust the prize pool basically every tournament, usually up because usually they have more players than the pool was based on. When the attendance is short by a small amount, they usually don't take money from the prize pool unless it's an "everybody pays" tournament, but if attendance is short by a large amount the pool will definitely be adjusted down.

···

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#6

For the past ten or so years, I have been participating in 4 to 5
tournaments every month. Some are slot. Some are VP. Some are various
table games. All, but one, of these tournaments have been free (no entry
fee). Since I do not live in Vegas, I take advantage of these offers
primarily for the free rooms.

There have been many times when casinos reduced the prize pool, due to fewer
participants. I'd say, about 15% to 20% of the tournaments (that I've been
in) have had this happen.

And, I have experienced many tournaments that have had more participants
than expected, but the prize pool is not adjusted upward. The one casino
where it seems this occurs more often (than the other casinos) is Aladdin.
They consistently have more participants than their promotional offers state
they are expecting. And, they NEVER increase the prizes. It's very
annoying to assume you have a one-in-300 chance of winning the top prize,
only to learn - after getting there - that it's now a one-in-500 chance.

Only once in all this time did a casino actually ADD money to the prize pool
because of more participants than expected. It was in December, 2004, at
the Venetian for their year-end "Tournament of Champions" in which
*thousands* more people showed up than they expected. It was a nightmare.
People spent 3-4 hours in line, just to get sweepstakes tickets. The line
went from the Sands Convention Center all the way to the Sports Book at the
other end of the casino! After all of the drawing tickets were finally
distributed, we all waited as tickets were drawn for the preliminary slot
tournaments. Rather than pull all the slot tournament participant winners
at once, they made us wait for each preliminary slot tournament round to
finish before drawing the next round's winners. Thousands of people were
crowded in the ballroom all afternoon while the preliminary rounds were
completed. They took the top point scorers from each round and, eventually,
there were 36 finalists. In addition to adding money to the final prize
pool, the Venetian gave everyone in attendance a $50 gaming credit for their
next visit, as an apology for the poorly planned event. I actually was one
of the winners that day - 36th place out of 36!

I really like participating in tournaments. Some casinos' tournaments are
better than others. As far as I'm concerned, the best tournaments are at
Treasure Island. They are well themed; they have great prize pools; they
give 'welcome' gifts; they have awards banquets; and they are very
entertaining (thanks to their regular MC). I also like Sunset Station's
tournaments - just because the tournament staff are so nice.

There are several casinos that consistently have NO CLUE how to run a
tournament. There is little (or no) theming; the staff is unfriendly or
incompetent; there are no gifts or awards banquets; and they are just plain
boring. But, I won't mention *which* casinos these are, just in case they
are reading this. I don't want to stop getting the offers, cause I like
getting the free rooms.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#7

Curtis Rich wrote:

There are several casinos that consistently have NO CLUE how to run
a tournament. There is little (or no) theming; the staff is
unfriendly or incompetent; there are no gifts or awards banquets;
and they are just plain boring. But, I won't mention *which*
casinos these are, just in case they are reading this. I don't want
to stop getting the offers, cause I like getting the free rooms.

I will discuss a casino where tournaments are "done right", however.
I'm referring to AC Hilton. (This is one for you to file away, Jean :).

Mind you, I'm referring to our experience of 4 years ago, because
we've since stopped playing there. However, they consistently held
the most well organized and entertaining weekend tournament events.

These tournaments were for upper-mid level players and above. They
were two day weekend events (Fri/Sat) and provided a guaranteed win of
$100. One session was Friday night, the other Saturday afternoon.
There was a very nice spread of finger food and an open bar available
before and after your session.

Two machines were played by each contestent. This meant that since
Bev and I play on a single card, we were both able to participate. A
solo player would simply bang away with both hands.

Given the mindless nature of a slot tournament, aided by a couple of
strong drinks immediately beforehand :), we turned these things into a
real hoot! :wink: Our enthusiasm for our hits and those of the players
next to us tended to be contagious. An entertaining and adept M.C.
kept players abreast of playing time and scores and added appropriate
color.

Saturday night there was an awards banquet, sometimes including a
dinner as nice as surf and turf plus a dance band. Results were kept
sealed until the winners were announced after dinner. It was fun to
have a chance to meet a few new faces, or settle in with familar ones
over dinner. The casino made a point of having most of the hosts in
attendence and jazzed things up with a little bit of "rah rah".

A nice touch was that they distributed the guaranteed prize
immediately at your session (cash, not voucher to be redeemed). True
to our general tournament experience, that was the only winnings we
ever saw out of these :frowning:

Every single aspect of these events was executed flawlessly. In their
entirety, these were some of the best events in which we've ever
participated.

- Harry

#8

Curtis Rich wrote:

···

There are several casinos that consistently have NO CLUE how to run
a tournament. There is little (or no) theming; the staff is
unfriendly or incompetent; there are no gifts or awards banquets;
and they are just plain boring. But, I won't mention *which*
casinos these are, just in case they are reading this. I don't want
to stop getting the offers, cause I like getting the free rooms.

#######################################
   
  I, too, will discuss several tourneys that were done "right". These were all slot tourneys at Rio. All of these were 3 sessions over 2 days--first day was 2 sessions (usually) and second day was 1 session followed by awards banquet in evening. Many also included a "pre" cocktail party on the night before (official-"day of registration" altho you could register the next day, too!)
  that was themed, open bar and had appetizers you could make a meal out of!!! Altho we never won and no $ was given to participating we had a great time! Lately, we've noticed that not all the slot tourneys include a banquet or even buffet and most do not include the pre-cocktail party. Or they may only include the cocktail reception and tourney and that's it! I guess we've been spoiled in the past with the free food. drinks and great awards banquet!
   
  Also, we've been getting many invitations to not only slot tourneys, but: bj, craps, vp, pai gow and in a couple weeks we're going to one via Harrahs that includes Bingo! (2 cards, so the hubby can play, too!) We've also noticed that lately (since the Official merger w/Park Place) that the rooms may be at one location--say Ballys but the event will be at Harrahs! Seems like we could attend an event every week OR weekend under the Harrahs umbrella!
  This does not include that offers to stay of such-and-such dates and get a free IPOD shuffle or Visa Simon MC or something similiar! It's getting so that if we can't find one of these events to work into our visits, that we feel we're missing out on something!
   
  Another thing that I noticed--in the past whenever I called to book an event--whether it was directly after receiving the invitation or a few weeks later--we could get into the event. Now since the co-mingling of the Caesars/Park Place people--when I call, the events are typically full. . .. . . .boo-hoo!!!!! 2 weeks ago I called and called to figure out which of about 6 events I could book into a month later, to plan my mini-vacation around. . . . .it wasn't easy. I complained but I don't think it helped. I think Marilyn Wynn will probably hear from me about this too--in a future letter. . . . .we'll see how this trip goes and how the rooms are at Harrahs. . . . . if I remember, I wasn't that impressed last time with them. . . .
   
  FYI--Hubby is a Diamond and I'm a Platinum. . . . .

Jean H--
   
  You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes.
You can steer yourself any direction you choose.
You're on your own. And you know what you know.
  And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go.... Dr. Suess

---------------------------------
Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on Yahoo! FareChase

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#9

All, but one, of these tournaments have been free (no entry
fee). Since I do not live in Vegas, I take advantage of these offers
primarily for the free rooms.

And, I have experienced many tournaments that have had more

participants

than expected, but the prize pool is not adjusted upward.

I think that the previous comment about increasing the prize pool when
there are more participants than expected was meant to apply to
tournaments where an entry fee is paid. Why would the casino increase
the pool because there are more people playing for free?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Curtis Rich" <LGTVegas@...> wrote:

#10

My comment was referring specifically to tournaments
without an entry fee. However, I realize now that my
comment actually applies to all three types: with a fee,
with no fee, and combined (some participants have paid
a fee and some have not). I have been in many of the
'combined' (fee & no fee) tournaments at the Flamingo.

My recent experience with a slot tournament at the
Flamingo was they had substantially more (100's more)
players than they expected and they did not adjust the
prize pool. In fact, they had so many more participants
than expected, they gave everyone food vouchers rather
than having the awards banquet (as advertised) because
they did not have a ballroom large enough to hold all of
the players and their guests!

Clearly, if there are paying customers mixed in with
non-paying customers, the prize pool should be
adjusted upward, if they have more participants.
But, if a tournament is 100% free (no one has paid an
entry fee), it's not as clear cut. I still believe that the
tournaments have a value to me, when I book them.
So, if I show up, a month later, to find my chances
of winning have gone from 1-in-200 to 1-in-400....
well, now the offer is not as valuable and, yes, the
casino should kick-in something extra.

The whole point of a casino offering free tournaments
is to get the players on the casino floor. So, if they
budget for 300 players and actually get 400 players,
they should give us something extra, since they now
have 100 more players in their casino. The casino
should pay for the extra revenue they receive from the
additional players. Especially, when it is at the
expense of the initial 300 participants who registered.

···

On 5/1/06, neilemb <nembree@aol.com> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Curtis Rich" <LGTVegas@...> wrote:
> All, but one, of these tournaments have been free (no entry
> fee). Since I do not live in Vegas, I take advantage of these offers
> primarily for the free rooms.
>
> And, I have experienced many tournaments that have had more
participants
> than expected, but the prize pool is not adjusted upward.

I think that the previous comment about increasing the prize pool when
there are more participants than expected was meant to apply to
tournaments where an entry fee is paid. Why would the casino increase
the pool because there are more people playing for free?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#11

I noticed that Red Rock is using a similar method. When I go to the
Cafe I'm issued a ticket and told to return later (40 minutes
yesterday). But the cafe did not seem that packed. So what am I
supposed to do for 40 minutes? Daaaa ... play some slots I guess.
I wasn't surprised when, 40 minutes later, a table was available.
However, I must admit the cafe food we ordered was good, and reasonably
priced.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Curtis Rich" <LGTVegas@...> wrote:

The whole point of a casino offering free tournaments
is to get the players on the casino floor.

#12

Let me make sure I understand this, as it doesn't seem to apply to
slot tournaments. You go to the Cafe at Red Rock; request a table; are
told to come back in "40 minutes": yet the cafe "didn't seem that
packed". Question one would be: was there ANY line at all? Question
two would be: did you personally see empty tables?

If this is all correct, I would like to know the time this occured on
4/30/06. The information will be forwarded to the Red Rock CM without
your name or Yahoo user I.D.

I noticed that Red Rock is using a similar method. When I go to the
Cafe I'm issued a ticket and told to return later (40 minutes
yesterday). But the cafe did not seem that packed. So what am I
supposed to do for 40 minutes? Daaaa ... play some slots I guess.
I wasn't surprised when, 40 minutes later, a table was available.
However, I must admit the cafe food we ordered was good, and

reasonably

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@...> wrote:

priced.

#13

Last week at the Red Rock Salt Lick Barbecue restaurant
we were given a ticket and told to return in 30 minutes. No
line and lots of empty tables.

They said that on that particular shift (lunch) they didn't
have enough waiters on duty to handle the empty tables.

vpFae

···

On 2 May 2006 at 4:09, Charles wrote:

Let me make sure I understand this, as it doesn't seem to apply to
slot tournaments. You go to the Cafe at Red Rock; request a table;
are told to come back in "40 minutes": yet the cafe "didn't seem that > packed". Question one would be: was there ANY line at all? Question
two would be: did you personally see empty tables?

#14

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFae6128305" <vpfae6128305@...>
wrote:

> Let me make sure I understand this, as it doesn't seem to apply

to

> slot tournaments. You go to the Cafe at Red Rock; request a

table;

> are told to come back in "40 minutes": yet the cafe "didn't seem

that > packed". Question one would be: was there ANY line at all?
Question

> two would be: did you personally see empty tables?

Last week at the Red Rock Salt Lick Barbecue restaurant
we were given a ticket and told to return in 30 minutes. No
line and lots of empty tables.

They said that on that particular shift (lunch) they didn't
have enough waiters on duty to handle the empty tables.

vpFae

We were there for lunch too, and wanted to sit outside, so from the
front I couldn't see if there were empty tables. But later, when we
were escorted outside, there were three tables available. To be
honest, this doesn't bother me much, since the Optimum games are
near. I'm leaving in a few days anyway. Besides, I really like RR.
So far, I think they did a super job with the place, and that
includes the restaurants I've visited so far. We go to lunch again
tomorrow, so it'll be interesting to see what happens at the cafe.

···

On 2 May 2006 at 4:09, Charles wrote:

#15

The same thing happened to me last night( May 1st)---we were given a
ticket and told to come back in an hour. When one of our party
complained and told them the place is empty( there were many empty
tables, and not a single person on line)we were given a table
immediatly.

>
> > Let me make sure I understand this, as it doesn't seem to

apply

to
> > slot tournaments. You go to the Cafe at Red Rock; request a
table;
> > are told to come back in "40 minutes": yet the cafe "didn't

seem

that > packed". Question one would be: was there ANY line at all?
Question
> > two would be: did you personally see empty tables?
>
> Last week at the Red Rock Salt Lick Barbecue restaurant
> we were given a ticket and told to return in 30 minutes. No
> line and lots of empty tables.
>
> They said that on that particular shift (lunch) they didn't
> have enough waiters on duty to handle the empty tables.
>
> vpFae
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
We were there for lunch too, and wanted to sit outside, so from

the

front I couldn't see if there were empty tables. But later, when

we

were escorted outside, there were three tables available. To be
honest, this doesn't bother me much, since the Optimum games are
near. I'm leaving in a few days anyway. Besides, I really like

RR.

So far, I think they did a super job with the place, and that
includes the restaurants I've visited so far. We go to lunch

again

···

tomorrow, so it'll be interesting to see what happens at the cafe.

#16

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFae6128305" <vpfae6128305@...>
wrote:

> Let me make sure I understand this, as it doesn't seem to apply

to

> slot tournaments. You go to the Cafe at Red Rock; request a

table;

> are told to come back in "40 minutes": yet the cafe "didn't seem

that > packed". Question one would be: was there ANY line at all?
Question

> two would be: did you personally see empty tables?

Last week at the Red Rock Salt Lick Barbecue restaurant
we were given a ticket and told to return in 30 minutes. No
line and lots of empty tables.

They said that on that particular shift (lunch) they didn't
have enough waiters on duty to handle the empty tables.

vpFae

We had exactly the same experience at the Barbecue place. We got a
ticket which said to return in 45 minutes. We walked immediately
over to the ticket return line (actually there was no line and the
restaurant was more than half empty). We were seated immediately!

···

On 2 May 2006 at 4:09, Charles wrote:

#17

Based on these reports, it would seem that this is some sort of policy
on the part of Red Rock, and perhaps Station Casinos itself. Rather
than have you eat, be satisfied, and then gamble; they want you to
gamble, then eat. Granted, I really enjoy Red Rock; it is 3 miles from
my front door. But these kind of reports will not generate goodwill or
positive word of mouth.

I have only had two dining experiences there so far, and both are
exactly opposite of these reports. Went to Tides Oyster Bar on Monday
April 24 and was seated within 3 minutes. Went to the buffet Wednesday
April 26th at 3:41PM expecting to find a line for the dinner buffet at
4;00PM. But unlike GVR, RR doesn't close between lunch and dinner, so
I walked right up to the cashier and paid the lunch price even though
I basically had all the dinner items after 4:00PM.

One more thing I have heard of, but not verified. It seems that Red
Rock may be charging a $20 per day "resort fee" that is tacked onto
the room rate, but might not be disclosed when people book their rooms.

The casino industry is sure peculiar.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M" <merg17@...> wrote:

We had exactly the same experience at the Barbecue place. We got a
ticket which said to return in 45 minutes. We walked immediately
over to the ticket return line (actually there was no line and the
restaurant was more than half empty). We were seated immediately!

#18

GVR buffet no longer closes between 3:00 and 4:00.

Hask

···

But unlike GVR, RR doesn't close between lunch and dinner,

#19

The latest LVA actually has a small blurb on this practice as it applies to Red Rock. It states
that this is what happens at the restaurants that don't take reservations (Cabo, Salt Lick), but
doesn't state what the practice is at a restaurant that accepts reservations but where you
attempt to walk in. As a walk-in, do you still get a line pass, or do they actually have
beepers, or does it even matter?

Bettie
AdvantagePlayer.com

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Charles" <fromthevault@...> wrote:

Based on these reports, it would seem that this is some sort of policy
on the part of Red Rock, and perhaps Station Casinos itself.