vpFREE2 Forums

Shcokwave ER debate

We've got a friendly debate going on another board over the correct
perfect play ER on Shockwave with the following payscale:

hi pair 5
2 pair 5
3 kind 15
strait 25
flush 40
full hs 60
4 kind 125
bonus 4 kind 4,000
str fl 500
roy fl 4,000

Just when I thought we had settled on 99.83%, a poster said that IGT
gives the best ER as 99.6%. Does anybody know, or can any math head
back into, how they come up with that yield? That wasn't even one of
the choices at the beginning of the debate. It probably has to do
with the assumed 4OAK frequency, either before entering bonus mode or
once in it.

Also, related, is IGT usually on the mark with their quoted game
yields, or do they have any reason to understate them?

Shockwave has been around for a while, of course, but it appears that
this full-pay version just arrived with the other positive changes at
the Gold Strike a few months ago. We didn't really notice it at first
since somewhere we had picked up a 99.4% ER figure for it, and other
new GS games were better. But at 99.83% it would be the 3rd best game
and solidly positive on double point Tuesdays, with 1% CB.

It also looks like fun, if you like learning new strategies. Besides
the bonus, which pays the same as a royal and thus effectively
shortens the royal/jackpot cycle to about 12,333 hands, the enhanced
pay on the middle hands (especially the 8 paid for flushes) makes for
some interesting strategy changes. Kind of like 10/7 DB only more so.

If you simply apply the non-bonus 95.23% ER X 438 hand cycle + the bonus
290% ER for 10 hands you would get an ER of about 99.6%. Perhaps that's what
IGT did?

···

-----Original Message-----
From: blaw57 [mailto:bla…@…com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 7:48 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Shcokwave ER debate

We've got a friendly debate going on another board over the correct
perfect play ER on Shockwave with the following payscale:

hi pair 5
2 pair 5
3 kind 15
strait 25
flush 40
full hs 60
4 kind 125
bonus 4 kind 4,000
str fl 500
roy fl 4,000

Just when I thought we had settled on 99.83%, a poster said that IGT
gives the best ER as 99.6%. Does anybody know, or can any math head
back into, how they come up with that yield? That wasn't even one of
the choices at the beginning of the debate. It probably has to do
with the assumed 4OAK frequency, either before entering bonus mode or
once in it.

Also, related, is IGT usually on the mark with their quoted game
yields, or do they have any reason to understate them?

Shockwave has been around for a while, of course, but it appears that
this full-pay version just arrived with the other positive changes at
the Gold Strike a few months ago. We didn't really notice it at first
since somewhere we had picked up a 99.4% ER figure for it, and other
new GS games were better. But at 99.83% it would be the 3rd best game
and solidly positive on double point Tuesdays, with 1% CB.

It also looks like fun, if you like learning new strategies. Besides
the bonus, which pays the same as a royal and thus effectively
shortens the royal/jackpot cycle to about 12,333 hands, the enhanced
pay on the middle hands (especially the 8 paid for flushes) makes for
some interesting strategy changes. Kind of like 10/7 DB only more so.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"We've got a friendly debate going on another board over the correct
perfect play ER on Shockwave with the following payscale:

hi pair 5
2 pair 5
3 kind 15
strait 25
flush 40
full hs 60
4 kind 125
bonus 4 kind 4,000
str fl 500
roy fl 4,000

Just when I thought we had settled on 99.83%, a poster said that IGT
gives the best ER as 99.6%. Does anybody know, or can any math head
back into, how they come up with that yield?"

I would trust IGT's number.

Here's my theory. I don't know who got the 99.83% number, but I
suspect it may be due to the way one blends the Quad mode with the
non-quad mode. Under the Quad mode, you have a limited time to hit
the bonus and it's a one shot deal. That is to say, the player does
NOT have 10 shots every time to pick-up as many bonus Quads as
possible. So my theory would say the 99.83% is an over-shoot.

That's my two cents.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "blaw57" <blaw57@y...> wrote:

Randy C wrote:

If you simply apply the non-bonus 95.23% ER X 438 hand cycle + the bonus
290% ER for 10 hands you would get an ER of about 99.6%. Perhaps that's what
IGT did?

snip

That might be about right. I haven't checked the math. That's essentially what I think I posted at some point, and someone else indicated that the strategy during the regular play would be slightly altered due to the enhanced value of quads. I never bothered to check because I felt like the effect would be too insignificant, but perhaps it has more of an impact than I thought.

Cheers.

Bill Velek

Thanks, Randy, I think I now agree with the IGT number, or 99.59% to
carry it out one decimal place more. Your observation was key - I
went back to the other, much more involved analysis and found flaws
with it when I tried to reconcile the two approaches.

If you simply apply the non-bonus 95.23% ER X 438 hand cycle + the

bonus

290% ER for 10 hands you would get an ER of about 99.6%. Perhaps

that's what

IGT did?

From: blaw57 [mailto:blaw57@y…]
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 7:48 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Shcokwave ER debate

We've got a friendly debate going on another board over the correct
perfect play ER on Shockwave with the following payscale:

hi pair 5
2 pair 5
3 kind 15
strait 25
flush 40
full hs 60
4 kind 125
bonus 4 kind 4,000
str fl 500
roy fl 4,000

Just when I thought we had settled on 99.83%, a poster said that

IGT

gives the best ER as 99.6%. Does anybody know, or can any math head
back into, how they come up with that yield? That wasn't even one

of

the choices at the beginning of the debate. It probably has to do
with the assumed 4OAK frequency, either before entering bonus mode

or

once in it.

Also, related, is IGT usually on the mark with their quoted game
yields, or do they have any reason to understate them?

Shockwave has been around for a while, of course, but it appears

that

this full-pay version just arrived with the other positive changes

at

the Gold Strike a few months ago. We didn't really notice it at

first

since somewhere we had picked up a 99.4% ER figure for it, and

other

new GS games were better. But at 99.83% it would be the 3rd best

game

and solidly positive on double point Tuesdays, with 1% CB.

It also looks like fun, if you like learning new strategies.

Besides

the bonus, which pays the same as a royal and thus effectively
shortens the royal/jackpot cycle to about 12,333 hands, the

enhanced

pay on the middle hands (especially the 8 paid for flushes) makes

for

some interesting strategy changes. Kind of like 10/7 DB only more

so.

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:/www.

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pf=PLApply&media=EMYHNL40F21004SS> click

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:HM/A=2372354/rand=773306756>

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Service

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Randy C" <randyc@U...> wrote:

-----Original Message-----
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

isn't the variance kinda high?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "blaw57" <blaw57@y...> wrote:

It also looks like fun, if you like learning new strategies. Besides
the bonus, which pays the same as a royal and thus effectively
shortens the royal/jackpot cycle to about 12,333 hands, the enhanced
pay on the middle hands (especially the 8 paid for flushes) makes for
some interesting strategy changes. Kind of like 10/7 DB only more so.

nightoftheiguana2000 wrote:

isn't the variance kinda high?

iggy, coming from you that's surely a rhetorical question. And you
can be sure that for those who are fond of Shockwave, high variance is
the greater part of the appeal.

- H.

Randy C wrote:

If you simply apply the non-bonus 95.23% ER X 438 hand cycle + the
bonus 290% ER for 10 hands you would get an ER of about 99.6%.

Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:

That's essentially what I think I posted at some point, and
someone else indicated that the strategy during the regular play
would be slightly altered due to the enhanced value of quads. I
never bothered to check because I felt like the effect would be
too insignificant, but perhaps it has more of an impact than I
thought.

For a very broad-stroke estimate... figure that 10 chances to hit
quads is between 1:40 and 1:45. The shockwave mode gives an
additional 3875 coins (4000 coins for quads instead of 125). This
suggests that, when analyzing standard mode, there's an extra ~90
coins of value to quads; rather than a 125 pay-off for quads, it's
equivalent to over 200 coins.

This gets us nowhere close to how much EV could be added by a non-
bonus strategy that takes into account the implicit extra EV of
quads. It's just a ballpark look at how significant the implicit quad
extra value is.

Stuart

Stuart wrote:

Randy C wrote:
> If you simply apply the non-bonus 95.23% ER X 438 hand cycle + the
> bonus 290% ER for 10 hands you would get an ER of about 99.6%.

Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:
> That's essentially what I think I posted at some point, and
> someone else indicated that the strategy during the regular play
> would be slightly altered due to the enhanced value of quads. I
> never bothered to check because I felt like the effect would be
> too insignificant, but perhaps it has more of an impact than I
> thought.

For a very broad-stroke estimate... figure that 10 chances to hit
quads is between 1:40 and 1:45. The shockwave mode gives an
additional 3875 coins (4000 coins for quads instead of 125). This
suggests that, when analyzing standard mode, there's an extra ~90
coins of value to quads; rather than a 125 pay-off for quads, it's
equivalent to over 200 coins.

This gets us nowhere close to how much EV could be added by a non-
bonus strategy that takes into account the implicit extra EV of
quads. It's just a ballpark look at how significant the implicit quad
extra value is.

Stuart

You might be right, Stuart. I didn't actually analyze it nor did I give it enough real careful thought because I've never seen the game where I play. I think I misplaced a decimal or something because I seem to recall using an adjustment of something like just 9 coins per game for the quads during non-bonus play.

Now that I'm looking at it, this is my approach, below, analyzing it in a fashion similar to what I had done for multi-strike. First, what do you earn when you happen to hit the quads, besides the normal 125 credits. Well, you get to play a better game for 5 credits per game for 10 games, which means the difference in the overall ER between a regular game and a bonus round. The awkward problem for me, not remembering a lot of math and therefore not knowing of a better way, is to go through a number of iterations to get close to the real figure. Just so readers can see what I'm trying to say, I've plugged the paytable into WinPoker and it came up with an initial ER value of 95.2373%, but during the bonus rounds it came up with an ER value of 289.9961%. Now, on average, for the ten-game bonus round only, each game you are expecting a return of 289.9961% instead of 95.2373%, for a difference of 194.7588% x 5 coins x 10 games = 97.3794 extra credits for every time you hit a quad in normal mode. So we go back and add 97 coins to the 125 and get a new ER for non-bonus rounds of 99.6855% ... but now the difference between the adjusted ER for normal rounds and bonus rounds has changed; it is no longer 194.7588%, but rather 289.9961% minus 99.6855% = 190.3106% x 50 coins = 95 instead of 97. We go back and adjust the paytable again and get an adjusted ER of 99.5936% during non-bonus rounds. The process could be repeated again, but the difference become smaller and smaller as the calculations dampen out, so to speak. Anyway, that's my figure now -- 99.6% -- which is what you came up using the easy method. :wink: So you ballpark figure is right on, as far as I can see, although perhaps several iterations might change it one decimal place, I suppose.

Cheers.

Bill Velek

And to think that my derivations have been deemed "Spock"-ian.

Of course, I'm still waiting on a cost-benefit analysis to deer
hunting, not to mention an environmental impact statement.

- H.

Bill Velek wrote:

···

You might be right, Stuart. I didn't actually analyze it nor did I
give it enough real careful thought because I've never seen the game
where I
play. I think I misplaced a decimal or something because I seem to
recall using an adjustment of something like just 9 coins per game
for the quads during non-bonus play.

Now that I'm looking at it, this is my approach, below, analyzing it
in a fashion similar to what I had done for multi-strike. First,
what do you earn when you happen to hit the quads, besides the
normal 125 credits. Well, you get to play a better game for 5
credits per game for 10 games, which means the difference in the
overall ER between a regular game and a bonus round. The awkward
problem for me, not remembering a lot of math and therefore not
knowing of a better way, is to go through a number of iterations to
get close to the real figure. Just so readers can see what I'm
trying to say, I've plugged the paytable into WinPoker and it came
up with an initial ER value of 95.2373%, but during the bonus rounds
it came up with an ER value of 289.9961%. Now, on average,
for the ten-game bonus round only, each game you are expecting a
return of 289.9961% instead of 95.2373%, for a difference of
194.7588% x 5 coins x 10 games = 97.3794 extra credits for every
time you hit a quad in normal mode. So we go back and add 97 coins
to the 125 and get a new ER for non-bonus rounds of 99.6855% ... but
now the difference between the adjusted ER for normal rounds and
bonus rounds has changed; it is no longer 194.7588%, but rather
289.9961% minus 99.6855% = 190.3106% x 50 coins = 95 instead of 97.
We go back and adjust the paytable again and get an adjusted ER of
99.5936% during non-bonus rounds. The process could be repeated
again, but the difference become smaller and smaller as the
calculations dampen out, so to speak. Anyway, that's my figure
now -- 99.6% -- which is what you came up using the easy method.
:wink:
So you ballpark figure is right on, as far as I can see, although
perhaps several iterations might change it one decimal place, I
suppose.

Cheers.

Bill Velek

Harry Porter wrote:

And to think that my derivations have been deemed "Spock"-ian.

Never by me! You're one of my biggest heros; I think of you as my mentor. You're nothing like "balls of jelly", or whatever his name is. :wink:

Of course, I'm still waiting on a cost-benefit analysis to deer
hunting, not to mention an environmental impact statement.

Awwww, come on Harry, ease up. Tom asked us to stop talking about that stuff, and I'm respecting his wishes ... as always.

Cheers.

Bill Velek

Bill Velek wrote:

Awwww, come on Harry, ease up.

Sorry, Bill ... left off those all too crucial :)'s

:wink:

- H.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@y...> wrote:

"isn't the variance kinda high? [for shockwave vp]"

Only in the quad bonus mode. Otherwise, you are facing a huge
negative ev game with [relatively] lower variance. Think about for
a moment, you WANT the HIGH variance because it means you found the
game in the quad mode.

action junkies get off on variance, personally i get off on moving up
in denomination, and since i don't have the bankroll of the sultan of
brunei (yet) this means i have to pay attention to variance

if i remember correctly, you had a run in with variance? in an attempt

nightoftheiguana2000 wrote:
> isn't the variance kinda high?

iggy, coming from you that's surely a rhetorical question. And you
can be sure that for those who are fond of Shockwave, high variance

is

···

at an underbankrolled potshot at dollar doublebonus? --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...> wrote:

the greater part of the appeal.

- H.

nightoftheiguana2000 writes:

if i remember correctly, you had a run in with variance? in an attempt
at an underbankrolled potshot at dollar doublebonus?

Not exactly ... in fact, I could consistently rely upon a trip loss
from one trip to the next ;(

In all truthfulness, what I suffered was an immediate royal drought in
that play of 4 to 5 cycles, plus a moderate shortfall on quad Aces.
Granted, these are the greater elements of DB variance but it's even
more unlikely that you'll overcome a royal drought in a low variance
game like Jacks.

As far as bankroll, with available cb/bonus, technically I wasn't
pushing the bankroll excessively in terms of actual ROR. But as Jean
notes, psychological bankroll is key. When you're bleeding out your
a** on a given game, shifting risk to other games (even if at lesser
ER) becomes attractive :wink:

- Harry

It does bump it up but only very slightly. If you run the base game
with 4K worth 25, you get 99.58% and a 4K cycle of 438 hands. Using
what I think is the appropriate 4K value, 44, the cycle is 435 hands
and the ER 99.59%.

Looking at the resultant strategy sheets, I think, shows why. In this
range (25 to 44) of 4K values, the only change you make is hold a few
more high pairs against some penalized 3RFs. Only a few plays change,
so your cycle shortens by only 3 hands. Low pairs and 3K have a big
enough cushion between them and the next best hand that almost
doubling the 4K value doesn't move them in hand order, and single
cards are too long a shot to have much added value.

On the appropriate value for 4Ks in determining strategy: Here's a
very simple approach that has no flaws I can see. Hitting a 4K has
only one result, allowing you to play 10 hands at 290% ER. So 10 bets
times 290% minus 10 bets coin-in produces a net benefit of 19 coins.
Add 1% cashback and the benefit is 19.1 coins.

On variance, I calculated it at 62.6 under my original mistaken
estimate of 99.83% ER. I think it will be close to that under the
right numbers, but I haven't yet redone the math. BTW, the way I do
it is to lay out one RF cycle of hand-by-hand values in Excel. Where
you have fractional expected hands, I put in one result at the
fractions (i.e., 2857.7 3Ks get 2857 entries of 3 and one entry of
2.1). I then average all the values to make sure I'm on the nose of
the ER, and if not I adjust the fractional hands accordingly. Then I
use the excel function to figure the SD, and square it. I've tested
this method against several known variances and it is very close.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:

nightoftheiguana2000 writes:
> if i remember correctly, you had a run in with variance? in an

attempt

> at an underbankrolled potshot at dollar doublebonus?

Not exactly ... in fact, I could consistently rely upon a trip loss
from one trip to the next ;(

In all truthfulness, what I suffered was an immediate royal drought

in

that play of 4 to 5 cycles, plus a moderate shortfall on quad Aces.
Granted, these are the greater elements of DB variance but it's even
more unlikely that you'll overcome a royal drought in a low variance
game like Jacks.

As far as bankroll, with available cb/bonus, technically I wasn't
pushing the bankroll excessively in terms of actual ROR. But as

Jean

···

notes, psychological bankroll is key. When you're bleeding out your
a** on a given game, shifting risk to other games (even if at lesser
ER) becomes attractive :wink:

- Harry

assuming the strategy generated with quad=44:
er=.995936
correct for quad=25:
.995936-.002296(44-25)=.952312
add bonus:
.952312+.002296x(1-(1-.002296)^10)x(800-25)=.992747
additional variance:
.002296x(1-(1-.002296)^10)x(800-25-.992747)^2=31

It does bump it up but only very slightly. If you run the base game
with 4K worth 25, you get 99.58% and a 4K cycle of 438 hands. Using
what I think is the appropriate 4K value, 44, the cycle is 435

hands

and the ER 99.59%.

Looking at the resultant strategy sheets, I think, shows why. In

this

range (25 to 44) of 4K values, the only change you make is hold a

few

more high pairs against some penalized 3RFs. Only a few plays

change,

so your cycle shortens by only 3 hands. Low pairs and 3K have a big
enough cushion between them and the next best hand that almost
doubling the 4K value doesn't move them in hand order, and single
cards are too long a shot to have much added value.

On the appropriate value for 4Ks in determining strategy: Here's a
very simple approach that has no flaws I can see. Hitting a 4K has
only one result, allowing you to play 10 hands at 290% ER. So 10

bets

times 290% minus 10 bets coin-in produces a net benefit of 19

coins.

you don't get to play 10 hands at 290%, what you get is 10 hands or
one bonus quad, whichever comes first

Add 1% cashback and the benefit is 19.1 coins.

On variance, I calculated it at 62.6 under my original mistaken
estimate of 99.83% ER. I think it will be close to that under the
right numbers, but I haven't yet redone the math. BTW, the way I do
it is to lay out one RF cycle of hand-by-hand values in Excel.

Where

you have fractional expected hands, I put in one result at the
fractions (i.e., 2857.7 3Ks get 2857 entries of 3 and one entry of
2.1). I then average all the values to make sure I'm on the nose of
the ER, and if not I adjust the fractional hands accordingly. Then

I

use the excel function to figure the SD, and square it. I've tested
this method against several known variances and it is very close.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:
>
> nightoftheiguana2000 writes:
> > if i remember correctly, you had a run in with variance? in an
attempt
> > at an underbankrolled potshot at dollar doublebonus?
>
> Not exactly ... in fact, I could consistently rely upon a trip

loss

> from one trip to the next ;(
>
> In all truthfulness, what I suffered was an immediate royal

drought

in
> that play of 4 to 5 cycles, plus a moderate shortfall on quad

Aces.

> Granted, these are the greater elements of DB variance but it's

even

> more unlikely that you'll overcome a royal drought in a low

variance

> game like Jacks.

in jacks you only have to worry about a royal drought, in db you have
to also worry about an aces drought, in deuces you have to also worry
about a deuces drought (one of the reasons the 3-5 royal bankroll
approximation begins to fail)
jacks-royal=97.5% (2.5% loss)
db-royal-aces=95% (5% loss)
fpdw-royal-deuces=95% (5% loss)

>
> As far as bankroll, with available cb/bonus, technically I wasn't
> pushing the bankroll excessively in terms of actual ROR. But as
Jean
> notes, psychological bankroll is key. When you're bleeding out

your

> a** on a given game, shifting risk to other games (even if at

lesser

> ER) becomes attractive :wink:
>
> - Harry

yes, bankroll is psychological
if it's all possible funds you can get your hands on, you have a
potential gambling addiction
bankroll is the sustained (net) loss at which point you would quit for
good or at least for a few years
you can either determine it beforehand or you can wing it and discover
it on the fly, but either way there is some sustained net loss that
will cause you to quit, and that is your bankroll, and there is always
some risk (risk of ruin) that you will in fact see that net sustained
loss

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "blaw57" <blaw57@y...> wrote: