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FWIW, Larry DeMar advised that the official name
for his best known game is:

Multi-Strike

(rather than Multi Strike, MultiStrike etc.) although he
uses all of these on his web site to facilitate search
engine hits.

Also, a new game from Larry will be "Multi-Strike
Super Times Pay":

Regular MS with six coins max bet per line and random
2x - 5x multipliers every 10 hands on average.

vpFae

--> Given a choice between JorB 9/5 Multi-Strike(20 coins/4x5))
and Super Times w/2to 10 multipler (18 coins/3x6} which is the
the better game?> Thx Colin

Best is a subjective term. Assuming the same game (9/5 JB) on both machines, the STP has a slightly higher EV (by about .03%). Both are well below 99%. STP is also more volatile.
Skip

luckvpg wrote:

···

--> Given a choice between JorB 9/5 Multi-Strike(20 coins/4x5))
and Super Times w/2to 10 multipler (18 coins/3x6} which is the
the better game?> Thx Colin

--
Thanks!
Skip
http://www.vpinsider.com

Skip Hughes wrote:

Best is a subjective term. Assuming the same game (9/5 JB) on both
machines, the STP has a slightly higher EV (by about .03%). Both are
well below 99%. STP is also more volatile.

While I concede it's possible, I hadn't even entertained the idea that
STP was more volatile than MS. (I'm defining "volatility" in terms of
loss risk for a given $x in coin-in, assuming same base denomination.)

MS has a higher variance than a single wager of the same amount put
through on single line ($.25 MS var > $1 single line var).

For STP, the 3-play division of the wager tremendously reduces
variance. You also modestly reduce variance vs. MS by virtue of more
plays per $ coin-in.

There was little doubt that the STP 6th-coin wager and variable
multiplier increased variance considerably. However, I hadn't
anticipated that it would increase variance by well over 100% vs
standard 3-play. Another exercise for a rainy day ... (er, when I'm
not piling up the sand bags, that is :wink:

- Harry (fingers crossed for at least a modicum of sunshine by the
holiday weekend :frowning:

Hi Harry;
I have to admit that I was shooting form the hip on that. Or rather, I was simply basing my statement just on personal observation, having played STP and MS almost exclusively every time I spend a weekend at Caesars Palace.

In fact, I feel about the same comfort with the same (limited) BR, playing 50-cent 9/6 JB MS as I do playing 5-play quarter 9/6 JB STP. than MS and much easier to burn through $500 or so in a few minutes. It's also a hell of a lot of fun.

Essentially, the STP spinner is nothing more than a variance/volatility multiplier, while the reduction in variance that multiplay gets you is not much help for short-term considerations. With 9/5 JB as the base game, I hope it's very short term.

I really look forward to your analysis of STP variance, in any case.
Skip

Harry Porter wrote:

···

From my experience, it's much easier to have a big jackpot playing STP

Skip Hughes wrote:
> Best is a subjective term. Assuming the same game (9/5 JB) on both
> machines, the STP has a slightly higher EV (by about .03%). Both are
> well below 99%. STP is also more volatile.

While I concede it's possible, I hadn't even entertained the idea that
STP was more volatile than MS. (I'm defining "volatility" in terms of
loss risk for a given $x in coin-in, assuming same base denomination.)

MS has a higher variance than a single wager of the same amount put
through on single line ($.25 MS var > $1 single line var).

For STP, the 3-play division of the wager tremendously reduces
variance. You also modestly reduce variance vs. MS by virtue of more
plays per $ coin-in.

There was little doubt that the STP 6th-coin wager and variable
multiplier increased variance considerably. However, I hadn't
anticipated that it would increase variance by well over 100% vs
standard 3-play. Another exercise for a rainy day ... (er, when I'm
not piling up the sand bags, that is :wink:

- Harry (fingers crossed for at least a modicum of sunshine by the
holiday weekend :frowning:

--
Thanks!
Skip
http://www.vpinsider.com

Skip Hughes wrote:

In fact, I feel about the same comfort with the same (limited) BR,
playing 50-cent 9/6 JB MS as I do playing 5-play quarter 9/6 JB STP.
From my experience, it's much easier to have a big jackpot playing
STP than MS and much easier to burn through $500 or so in a few
minutes.

Now you're stirring the variables up a bit from what was in my mind
... a comparison against 3-play STP.

The move to 5-play STP ratchets up the variance engine enough (even at
half the denom vs. MS) that I have absolutely no gut feel for the
comparison ... you might well be right in what your experience drives
you to expect.

As far as a 5-play analysis, I don't think I can do it justice. For
one thing, I'm not equipped to perform a thorough STP n-play
calculation. I had planned to compare a "single line" STP variance
against standard play and extrapolate the difference onto 3-play. For
a limited number of lines of multiline play I think this is a decent
approximation.

However, it would be a poor methodology in arriving at a feel for
5-play STP vs MS. One of the things at work is that both of these
games reshape the play distribution curve from that of standard play.
Thus, while it might be possible to accurately determine MS variance
and arrive at a strong approximation of STP variance, comparison of
the two games over any short term period (hour, session, trip) can't
be reasonably performed by comparing variance statistics (bearing in
mind that variance is a single point descriptor of the overall
distribution of results).

The bottom line is that while I'm reasonably comfortable that a
comparison of variance stats for MS and STP 3-play will give you a
decent approximation of relative trip bankroll requirements (i.e.,
which is greater for $n coin-in), I wouldn't touch it for STP 5-play.

The STP 3-play comparison intrigues me and is simmering on the back
burner ...

- Harry

Coming soon, and I kid you not, Multi-Strike Super Times Pay Video
Poker (as if the variance on either game isn't sky high enough already).

You will almost certainly see some new paytables for this product,
consider that 15-9 Deuces would come in at around 99.47, 8-5 Bonus
around 99.65, 9-7 DB around 99.58, 18-7-4700 KBJP would be 99.77. The
free ride card can be massaged a little bit to assist in payout, and
may well be done here.

A 9-6 Jacks would be over 100%, which wouldn't be allowed in many
jurisdictions (NSUD STP is 100.01%, is available on the program, but I
have yet to see any casino offering it, and doubt I will).

···

_________________________________________________________________________

paladingaming.net

<smile>

So, with some of these comments, I assume that one does not even want to
begin to think about the 10 line version of STP???

But, it is fun, for a diversion, when you have a couple of Bennies burning a
hole in your pocket...well....maybe more than a couple...LOL

.....bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

I wouldn't touch it for STP 5-play.

- Harry

paladingamingllc wrote:

Coming soon, and I kid you not, Multi-Strike Super Times Pay Video
Poker (as if the variance on either game isn't sky high enough
already).

I was sure that Spin Poker STP would have beat that game to the punch
... offered only in a TDB version, of course.

- H.

Watching someone hit for $30,000 on a quarter version of this makes
it so hard not to play. She must have screamed for a good 10
minutes.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "paladingamingllc"
<paladingamingllc@...> wrote:

Coming soon, and I kid you not, Multi-Strike Super Times Pay Video
Poker (as if the variance on either game isn't sky high enough

already).

You will almost certainly see some new paytables for this product,
consider that 15-9 Deuces would come in at around 99.47, 8-5 Bonus
around 99.65, 9-7 DB around 99.58, 18-7-4700 KBJP would be 99.77.

The

free ride card can be massaged a little bit to assist in payout,

and

may well be done here.

A 9-6 Jacks would be over 100%, which wouldn't be allowed in many
jurisdictions (NSUD STP is 100.01%, is available on the program,

but I

···

have yet to see any casino offering it, and doubt I will).

_____________________________________________________________________
____

paladingaming.net

<smile>

So, with some of these comments, I assume that one does not even

want to

begin to think about the 10 line version of STP???

Oh, as some of us call it, "never times pay"? I remember one day
playing the Jacks and hitting a royal and ending up losing two royals
on the day. Like in regular multi-line poker, playing more lines
reduces the variance up to a point where the covariance takes over.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bornloser1537" <bornloser1537@...> wrote:

_________________________________________________________________________

paladingaming.net

Multi-Strike Super Times Pay Poker is about to go to the regulators
for approval which means we are 60-90 days before it first appears in
Nevada.

This post assumed that the general Super Times Pay benefit would be
added to the Multi-Strike benefit pushing paytables to be even more
attractive.

Like each of the component games, all paytables will return more than
their standard counterparts (which is a regulatory requirement on
Multi-Strike Games), however the combined benefit of the features will
be about the same as it is now on each individual game (e.g. 9-6 Jacks
will probably end up around 99.8%).

We will certainly get a playable practice version on our web site once
the game is released.

-Larry DeMar
President
Leading Edge Design
http://www.ledgaming.com

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "paladingamingllc"
<paladingamingllc@...> wrote:

Coming soon, and I kid you not, Multi-Strike Super Times Pay Video
Poker (as if the variance on either game isn't sky high enough

already).

···

You will almost certainly see some new paytables for this product,
consider that 15-9 Deuces would come in at around 99.47, 8-5 Bonus
around 99.65, 9-7 DB around 99.58, 18-7-4700 KBJP would be 99.77. The
free ride card can be massaged a little bit to assist in payout, and
may well be done here.

A 9-6 Jacks would be over 100%, which wouldn't be allowed in many
jurisdictions (NSUD STP is 100.01%, is available on the program, but I
have yet to see any casino offering it, and doubt I will).

_________________________________________________________________________

paladingaming.net

Larry218 wrote:

This post assumed that the general Super Times Pay benefit would be
added to the Multi-Strike benefit pushing paytables to be even more
attractive.

Like each of the component games, all paytables will return more than
their standard counterparts (which is a regulatory requirement on
Multi-Strike Games), however the combined benefit of the features
will be about the same as it is now on each individual game (e.g. 9-6
Jacks will probably end up around 99.8%).

I assume that the lower ER than anticipated here reflects a modest
reduction in either the multiplier frequencies or the Free Ride frequency?

In any case, I look for this version to represent a bit of overload on
the variance/novelty front for the average player ... at least at
$.25+ denom. (Of course, my general risk averse nature leads me to
underestimate the volatility thirst of others :wink: I look for it to be
modestly more popular than Triple Double Bonus.

Notwithstanding that, in nickels I can see where this would be a hoot :slight_smile:

btw, when can we look forward to Multi-Play STP Multi-Strike??

- Harry

paladingamingllc wrote:

Oh, as some of us call it, "never times pay"? I remember one day
playing the Jacks and hitting a royal and ending up losing two royals
on the day. Like in regular multi-line poker, playing more lines
reduces the variance up to a point where the covariance takes over.

Probably splitting hairs far more than necessary: With respect to
multi-line variance I think it would be more accurate to say that
variance remains constant, but that since covariance is ramped up with
each added line there is a point at which covariance is the dominant
factor.

FWIW, the point at which game variance and the added multi-line
covariance contribute roughly the same amount to total play variance
is 10-play.

When the game is STP, the multiplier adds a variance effect of its
own. Since (I believe) that effect compounds variance and has no
impact on covariance, the combination of game variance and multiplier
variance will always dominate over covariance. That said, there's no
question that the influence of coveriance will increase with the
number of lines played.

- Harry

Larry, thanks for the clarification, and keep up the good work. LED
makes great, innovative, cutting edge products and I enjoy playing
them (although the combined MS/STP product may just be a little too
windy for me).

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Larry218" <larry@...> wrote:

Multi-Strike Super Times Pay Poker is about to go to the regulators
for approval which means we are 60-90 days before it first appears in
Nevada.

_________________________________________________________________________

paladingaming.net

Concur, but with respect to Jazbo's theorem regarding
variance/covariance of multiline poker (covar is about .1 per line
according to him) I'd like to make a couple of points.

In my experience, the covariance seems to take over at around 20
lines, not 10. I look at playing 100-line more as a time/space
problem, yes, a quantum physics issue, rather than a
mathematical/statistical one. You just can't press the buttons fast
enough to get more than 600 hands an hour. I play single line probably
about 2x faster. Getting in a large number of deals, not necessarily
hands, per hour reduces ones variance as well. Not variance by hand,
but variance by hour.

Finally, as the Joker games are popular in AC, because the Joker is so
much more valuable than any other card in the deck, Joker and DJ games
have a much higher covariance than, say, Jacks. I think Jazbo would
agree with this. In the Deuces games, there are four of them, which
would help bring the covar back to normal. Consider that one AC casino
offers a 99.99 version of 5 Joker, and consider how low the variance
is on that game, it's like Pick'em, I believe.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

paladingamingllc wrote:
> Oh, as some of us call it, "never times pay"? I remember one day
> playing the Jacks and hitting a royal and ending up losing two royals
> on the day. Like in regular multi-line poker, playing more lines
> reduces the variance up to a point where the covariance takes over.

Probably splitting hairs far more than necessary: With respect to
multi-line variance I think it would be more accurate to say that
variance remains constant, but that since covariance is ramped up with
each added line there is a point at which covariance is the dominant
factor.

FWIW, the point at which game variance and the added multi-line
covariance contribute roughly the same amount to total play variance
is 10-play.

When the game is STP, the multiplier adds a variance effect of its
own. Since (I believe) that effect compounds variance and has no
impact on covariance, the combination of game variance and multiplier
variance will always dominate over covariance. That said, there's no
question that the influence of coveriance will increase with the
number of lines played.

paladingamingllc wrote:

Concur, but with respect to Jazbo's theorem regarding
variance/covariance of multiline poker (covar is about .1 per line
according to him) I'd like to make a couple of points.

Jazbo's n-play webpage
http://jazbo.com/videopoker/nplay.html
is, of course, the source of my statements. (Getting a comprehensive
handle on the n-play math and calculation of the related co-variance
is another backlogged goal :wink:

I assume your parenthetical is meant to say that co-var runs about 10%
of variance (correlation coeff).

In my experience, the covariance seems to take over at around 20
lines, not 10.

My 10-line comment is based upon Jazbo's equation where, when n=11,
the contribution of each to total variance is roughly equal (which is
a direct consequence of the 10% relationship noted above).

However, variance is a single point descriptor of how results
fluctuate around the mean and, as often is noted, the vp distribution
curve isn't normal, particularly in the short-term. I can well see
where the skewness of the curve, combined with the altered result
expectation in any given period that excludes a royal hit, would alter
the point (number of lines played) at which covariance becomes the
dominant factor.

When you remove the huge contribution of the royal to both variance
and covariance, I'd expect the ratio between the resulting variables
to shift dramatically. Given my 10-play experience, I can easily see
where that point would be a reasonably higher value.

Bear in mind that over time (likely well within 1 mm 10-play deals
with most games) the distribution curve begins approximating a normal
distribution (as the overall occurance of royals begins to be
much more predictable). At that point, covariance would become more
significant relative to variance ... and I'd look for it to follow the
math and dominate for play in excess of 11-lines for most games.

I look at playing 100-line more as a time/space
problem, yes, a quantum physics issue, rather than a
mathematical/statistical one. You just can't press the buttons fast
enough to get more than 600 hands an hour. I play single line
probably about 2x faster. Getting in a large number of deals, not
necessarily hands, per hour reduces ones variance as well. Not
variance by hand, but variance by hour.

Absolutely. I tend to refer to the speed effect on session bankroll
variance as being $-variance/hr. (var x $bet/hr.)

Finally, as the Joker games are popular in AC, because the Joker is
so much more valuable than any other card in the deck, Joker and DJ
games have a much higher covariance than, say, Jacks. I think Jazbo
would agree with this.

Jazbo publishes a list of var/covar values for various games. Given
that AC-JW5K doesn't become interesting until the 5K progressive meter
advances ER to 100%, he lists values for a 100% and 103% play.

The values are:
100%: 124.2/9.0
103%: 200.6/13.5

As the 5K meter advances, covar actually diminishes relative to
variance. But, once again, when you remove the jackpot I look for
covariance to be all the stronger vs. variance. Since the prog isn't
found in anything higher than 3-play, I'd still look for variance to
dominate in the short run.

As far as DJ, the var/covar numbers are appreciably smaller than those
of a game such as DB or AA (which are relatively modest themselves).

In the Deuces games, there are four of them, which would help bring
the covar back to normal.

Interestingly, Deuces has the highest ratio of covar/var of the games
tabulated by Jazbo (DB runs a close 2nd). That's consistent with my
3-play UD prog experience at NYNY -- my initial introduction to that
play was quite rougher than I'd anticipated (though clearly tamer than
my 3-play DB experience).

Consider that one AC casino offers a 99.99 version of 5 Joker, and
consider how low the variance is on that game, it's like Pick'em, I
believe.

In the short run, I'd suggest like flipping coins by comparison (with
a steady meter decline between the occasional strong hits once or
twice an hour that can be as disheartening as 6 days of rain :wink:

Of course, with one of the weakest cb/comp/ratings to be found in AC,
it's largely a $1 novelty play.

- Harry

It is my understanding from previous posts that 20
lines is about the optimum point on multi-line
machines due to covariance effects. Is there a place
I can see this in graphic form?

···

--- Harry Porter <harry.porter@verizon.net> wrote:

FWIW, the point at which game variance and the added
multi-line
covariance contribute roughly the same amount to
total play variance
is 10-play.

Richard Boozer wrote:

It is my understanding from previous posts that 20
lines is about the optimum point on multi-line
machines due to covariance effects. Is there a place
I can see this in graphic form?

There wasn't any intent to describe that point as "optimum". It's
merely the point at which the interrelationship between the various
line outcomes (being related by the initial deal) overcomes the
influence of base game variance in determining overall game variance.

···

------

I'll note that the discussion between myself and paladin was entirely
academic. It wasn't intended to be digested by anyone other than
someone who previously has been compulsively driven to delve into game
variance merely for the sake of the math.

Frankly, the variance statistic (a simple single-point descriptor of a
relatively complex phenomenon of game volatility) in most
circumstances is entirely inadequate as a means by which to get your
hands around game loss risk and bankroll requirement. By itself, it
has no practical application in predicting short and medium term
swings (although some modified calculations can give it a little more
practical use).

As such, I encourage most to simply not sweat it, other than to
understand it as a volatility measure. Leave the esoterics to those
of us who clearly don't have anything better to occupy ourselves with
(when we're not fiddling with our Rubik's cubes).

- Harry

Thanks for the nice words. I guess that "windy" may not be so bad
during the times that the wind is blowing out :slight_smile:

And to answer Harry, the feature comes up every 10 deals (vs. 15 for
STP) and has an average multiplier of 3 (vs. 4.05 for STP). So, the
multipliers come up much more often but only run in the range of 2X-5X.

As you play the game and climb a level or two you just want that
multiplier to come out, and by bringing the 1 in 15 down to 1 in 10
(for each dealt hand) they hit the different levels at a rate that
feels really good. Of course, after starting a hand with a 40X
multiplier you still need to fill out that straight-flush on the draw :).

You can deduce from the numbers above that the STP feature is neutral
to the payout percentage and as Harry guessed, the Free Ride values
are set to give the increased return as you add more levels (which is
required in some jurisdictions).

I would be happy to post here when the game is finally out if anyone
would like that (as well as when our web version is running).

-Larry DeMar
President
Leading Edge Design
http://www.ledgaming.com

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "paladingamingllc"
<paladingamingllc@...> wrote:

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Larry218" <larry@> wrote:
>
>
> Multi-Strike Super Times Pay Poker is about to go to the regulators
> for approval which means we are 60-90 days before it first appears in
> Nevada.

Larry, thanks for the clarification, and keep up the good work. LED
makes great, innovative, cutting edge products and I enjoy playing
them (although the combined MS/STP product may just be a little too
windy for me).

_________________________________________________________________________

paladingaming.net