vpFREE2 Forums

Seeing the forest from the trees

#1

I too wanted to reply to Diane - I now no longer have to. Great reply. Diane, it's your money. If a free drink in the DL is worth really crappy games and worsening treatment then HET is your place in LV. As caplatinum is pointing out however, there are places that really do value your business. Give them a chance!

JW

···

--- On Sun, 6/14/09, caplatinum <belairgold@aol.com> wrote:

From: caplatinum <belairgold@aol.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Seeing the forest from the trees
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 5:58 PM
>

Diane,

I have been both local and tourist - my points apply to
both. I don't know at what level you play at, my guess is
below $5 denom from the post. But if you are playing enough
for Venetian Gold, there has to be some MGM MIRAGE
properties that are better deals than Harrah's. How inferior
do the games have to be, before the comps are not worth it,
meaning what you give back in payback more than offsets what
you are saving in out of pocket costs. Most MGM properties
for example have Illinois Deuces which is not an advantage
game, but passable for a tourist with desires such as
yourself - Harrah's often shorts even these games.

You need to understand the boardroom thinking - they will
keep cutting until people like you cry "UNCLE". The lounges
with the food, will be closed totally, like Caesars closed
their Seven Stars lounge. If you can't even get a comp to a
sit down steak dinner, and they have reduced you to snacking
in lounges, does that tell you they value you or they look
at you at a step above a bag lady going through the garbage
looking for leftovers.

I don't know where you live, but more and more people live
in driving distance of a casino because of Indian gaming.
Part of the Vegas experience or the AC experience to
paraphrase some guy named Wynn is to make the $50 player
feel like a $5,000 player and the $5,000 player feel like a
$50,000 player - the casinos don't do that anymore.

And by the way, unless you are an addict, you don't need to
play - you can find other recreational and travel
opportunities. They are giving away cruises now and many
cruises have casinos, often with bad games, but that does
not seem to bother you.

If you keep playing under any circumstances, it is going to
get like Britain, you are going to have to pay them an
admissions charge just to get in, maybe your gaming fever is
so bad you will pay. So how many more things do they need to
take away before you say no more, or are you an addict?

> I can understand that position for those players who
have free choice because they live in a town like LV or Reno
or elsewhere with multiple choices anytime 24/7. But
for those of us that fly in to play --- > IMO only
> Diane
>

------------------------------------

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#2

JW,
Thanks.

I have "found" the Palms to be a recent treasure I just found thanks to Annie Adlin....Gold Coast was ok as well for play or at least ok by my standards during the trip.

Through my new friends here and the informatiive posts I am sure I will find others. Maybe I will have to break down and rent a car my next trip with one of the many coupons and car deals in order to check out the different places mentioned on this group that aren't feasible for a cab ride.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Jigger Woodruff <bayfieldkent@...> wrote:

I too wanted to reply to Diane - I now no longer have to. Great reply. Diane, it's your money. If a free drink in the DL is worth really crappy games and worsening treatment then HET is your place in LV. As caplatinum is pointing out however, there are places that really do value your business. Give them a chance!

JW

#3

All this is true. Its a person's money and they can do whatever they want with it. However, on the other hand the casinos are now banking on more people having this attittude and so there shouldn't be any surprise as to the deteriorating VP situation, particularly on the Strip.

   Larry Feldman

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Jigger Woodruff <bayfieldkent@...> wrote:

I too wanted to reply to Diane - I now no longer have to. Great reply. Diane, it's your money. If a free drink in the DL is worth really crappy games and worsening treatment then HET is your place in LV. As caplatinum is pointing out however, there are places that really do value your business. Give them a chance!

JW

#4

>
>
> I too wanted to reply to Diane - I now no longer have to. Great reply. Diane, it's your money. If a free drink in the DL is worth really crappy games and worsening treatment then HET is your place in LV. As caplatinum is pointing out however, there are places that really do value your business. Give them a chance!
>
> JW

All this is true. Its a person's money and they can do whatever they want with it. However, on the other hand the casinos are now banking on more people having this attittude and so there shouldn't be any surprise as to the deteriorating VP situation, particularly on the Strip.

   Larry Feldman

Now I feel like I have become the "poster child" for stupid gamblers who aren't willing to "work" really hard to find the best games on the few days I have to spend in Las Vegas on VACATION.....

Diane

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lfcmja2000" <lfcmja@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Jigger Woodruff <bayfieldkent@> wrote:

#5

I think Diane has captured an essential point that many serious gamblers don't always appreciate. Not everyone gambles to extract every percentage point out of a casino. If playing 9/5 JOB at the bar instead of on the floor is worth the 1.1% reduction in payback, go for it.

What I think Diane doesn't fully appreciate is that this group can help you get the most out of you gambling budget whatever your playing style.

I remember back in the Westward Ho days, a couple of ladies were playing blackjack for green chips for 8 - 10 hours a day. We got to talking and I asked them how they were being treated. They said okay and I asked if they were seeing the shows and getting dinner comped. They looked at me with utter confusion. So I told them to ask the pit boss for dinner. They called the pit boss over and he of course wrote them a comp for dinner. I told them to get the room covered at check out and get a ride to the airport. I don't know if they ever did but just getting dinner comped they thought was the coolest thing in the world.

Now, this is an extreme example but these 2 ladies were playing a lot of money through and not getting the benefit of their play. I didn't change their style of play. I just increased the benefit.

That is what this group can do for people as well. If you are going to play 6/5 super aces, at least play where you get a decent return in food and comps for your 2% expected loss.

Even though I consider myself a well informed, serious gambler, I like to hit the craps table once in a while. I know the odds and I know what I am risking but dice is a LOT of fun for me and I am willing to pay for that privilege. My dice action on a typical trip? Maybe 1% of my total action.

This group is all about making informed gambling choices.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hrdiane" <HRDiane@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lfcmja2000" <lfcmja@> wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Jigger Woodruff <bayfieldkent@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I too wanted to reply to Diane - I now no longer have to. Great reply. Diane, it's your money. If a free drink in the DL is worth really crappy games and worsening treatment then HET is your place in LV. As caplatinum is pointing out however, there are places that really do value your business. Give them a chance!
> >
> > JW
>
> All this is true. Its a person's money and they can do whatever they want with it. However, on the other hand the casinos are now banking on more people having this attittude and so there shouldn't be any surprise as to the deteriorating VP situation, particularly on the Strip.
>
> Larry Feldman

Now I feel like I have become the "poster child" for stupid gamblers who aren't willing to "work" really hard to find the best games on the few days I have to spend in Las Vegas on VACATION.....

Diane
>

#6

Now I feel like I have become the "poster child"
for stupid gamblers who aren't willing to "work"
really hard to find the best games on the few days
I have to spend in Las Vegas on VACATION.....

Diane

Don't sweat it. This is an ongoing point of conflict
on this board. The way too serious gamblers vs the
recreational players. I personally make pleny of
compromises to enjoy my vacation and won't appologize
to anyone for it.

#7

Hi Diane,

There are many different "flavors" of players on this board. The main categories seem to be: 1) Professionals, who earn most of their income from gambling, 2) Serious, educated "Advantage Players", who endeavor to eek out the highest possible EV each time they risk their bankroll, 3) knowledgeable "Recreational Players" who, while usually seeking the highest payback and mostly sticking to correct strategy, occasionally play lower EV machines and deviate from proper holds strictly for the additional excitement of the play,
4) Recreational players who, while knowledgeable in pay tables and
EV CHOOSE to play at casinos which have a less advantageous VP inventory, because of free rooms, airfare, junkets and food credit
offers, 5) The rare (on this board) total ploppies, who donn't know what or how to play, and care only about getting "into action", regardless of the consequences to their bankroll.

I would assume that, from what you've posted, that you are probably
in the 3rd or 4th category, depending on circumstances, in terms of your VP play.

I am in the 3rd category, personally, but I have friends who are solidily in the 4th category. Most of them are current or former Diamond or 4* HET players, who value(d) the excellent perks that HET offer(ed) their players, more highly than always playing the best EV machines. This is NOBODY ELSE'S BUSINESS! It's their choice, their vacation time and their bankroll. I am definitely a VP Libertarian!

Please don't think for one minute that by playing inferior payback
machines, that you are causing the proliferation of poor VP. The casinos have always had tens of thousands of tourists who were more than willing to play anything that accepted money and dealt cards, and the casinos still offered positive VP back then.

The unfortunate trend of downgrading pay tables that is so prevalent these days, is, IMO, the result of too many educated players, and too little discretationary income, that can be earmarked for recreational gambling.

Please continue to have confidence in the gambling choices that YOU make, which suit YOUR particular desires and lifestyle, no matter how many posters may disrespect your decision or attempt to dissuade you. You are the ONLY one that should decide how you spend your time
and money.

That being said, I would suggest that with the current state of flux in which HET finds it's finances and leadership, that it would be prudent to look into alternate gambling venues. While you may not
find another casino which offers as rich rewards to their loyal players, you can certainly find a casino that in addition to providing better VP opportunties, also offers generous comps, and great rooms and food.

Good luck to you in whichever casinos you decide to favor with your
patronage!

~Babe~

···

============================================================
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hrdiane" <HRDiane@...> wrote:

Now I feel like I have become the "poster child" for stupid
gamblers who aren't willing to "work" really hard to find the
best games on the few days I have to spend in Las Vegas on VACATION.....

Diane

#8

>
> >

> Now I feel like I have become the "poster child" for stupid gamblers who aren't willing to "work" really hard to find the best games on the few days I have to spend in Las Vegas on VACATION.....
>
> Diane

I think Diane has captured an essential point that many serious gamblers don't always appreciate. Not everyone gambles to extract every percentage point out of a casino. If playing 9/5 JOB at the bar instead of on the floor is worth the 1.1% reduction in payback, go for it.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "johnnyzee48127" <greeklandjohnny@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hrdiane" <HRDiane@> wrote:
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lfcmja2000" <lfcmja@> wrote:
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Jigger Woodruff <bayfieldkent@> wrote:

___________________________________________________________
I do not want any confusion regarding my very clear understanding and APPRECIATION of all that I have learned already from this group regarding extracting value,finding paytables,learning to check the VP database, and many other things including current places that appear to be the "best" place to play right now. Most of you have added greatly to my knowledge and I thank you for it.

It's kind of like "dessert" in a restaurant. I know that it's bad for me, I don't need the extra calories, and I am probably mostly full already --------- but darn it, that looks SOOOOOOOOOO good, I break down and order it and eat every last bit. It wasn't the smartest thing to do, but at that moment I really enjoyed it.

That's me and VP ---- I have learned a lot, have tons more to learn, but there are times I may play the wrong machine in the wrong casino, just because its what I want to do at the moment.

I enjoy the group and plan to stay here.....

Diane

What I think Diane doesn't fully appreciate is that this group can help you get the most out of you gambling budget whatever your playing style.

This group is all about making informed gambling choices.

#9

Babe,
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I "bounce" between #3 and #4. You provide good perspective and advice as have others.

Especially the part about the less reliance on HET for my trips. I started that change last trip when I spent 4 days at The Palms. First time I had stayed there although I had played twice before. My rooms were comped and I had plenty of food credits for my meals. I loved their choices of VP and as many have said, definitely better than HET.

Next trip I will be at M (although I am disappointed to hear that even before I get there ----- this group has reported their VP downgrades). I called a host at M and explained my gambling and VP play and she immediately offered to comp me for 3 nights without having had any play there at all. Just faith that I was a VP player as I had described. It was cool to just call and get 3 free nites at a property I had never visited.

Now, I will see if it works at GVR or Red Rock which are also places I have long wanted to visit.

I wouldn't have done the cold call to the host without the urging of people from this group. So thanks to all.

Diane

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@...> wrote:

Hi Diane,

There are many different "flavors" of players on this board. The main categories seem to be: 1) Professionals, who earn most of their income from gambling, 2) Serious, educated "Advantage Players", who endeavor to eek out the highest possible EV each time they risk their bankroll, 3) knowledgeable "Recreational Players" who, while usually seeking the highest payback and mostly sticking to correct strategy, occasionally play lower EV machines and deviate from proper holds strictly for the additional excitement of the play,
4) Recreational players who, while knowledgeable in pay tables and
EV CHOOSE to play at casinos which have a less advantageous VP inventory, because of free rooms, airfare, junkets and food credit
offers, 5) The rare (on this board) total ploppies, who donn't know what or how to play, and care only about getting "into action", regardless of the consequences to their bankroll.

I would assume that, from what you've posted, that you are probably
in the 3rd or 4th category, depending on circumstances, in terms of your VP play.

I am in the 3rd category, personally, but I have friends who are solidily in the 4th category. Most of them are current or former Diamond or 4* HET players, who value(d) the excellent perks that HET offer(ed) their players, more highly than always playing the best EV machines. This is NOBODY ELSE'S BUSINESS! It's their choice, their vacation time and their bankroll. I am definitely a VP Libertarian!

Please don't think for one minute that by playing inferior payback
machines, that you are causing the proliferation of poor VP. The casinos have always had tens of thousands of tourists who were more than willing to play anything that accepted money and dealt cards, and the casinos still offered positive VP back then.

The unfortunate trend of downgrading pay tables that is so prevalent these days, is, IMO, the result of too many educated players, and too little discretationary income, that can be earmarked for recreational gambling.

Please continue to have confidence in the gambling choices that YOU make, which suit YOUR particular desires and lifestyle, no matter how many posters may disrespect your decision or attempt to dissuade you. You are the ONLY one that should decide how you spend your time
and money.

That being said, I would suggest that with the current state of flux in which HET finds it's finances and leadership, that it would be prudent to look into alternate gambling venues. While you may not
find another casino which offers as rich rewards to their loyal players, you can certainly find a casino that in addition to providing better VP opportunties, also offers generous comps, and great rooms and food.

Good luck to you in whichever casinos you decide to favor with your
patronage!

~Babe~

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hrdiane" <HRDiane@> wrote:

Now I feel like I have become the "poster child" for stupid
gamblers who aren't willing to "work" really hard to find the
best games on the few days I have to spend in Las Vegas on VACATION.....

Diane

#10

Hmmmm... I like your rating system Babe. Now, there are some rating systems I won't change. The 100 pt. wine scale and 70 pt. coin grading scale come to mind. My GF and I have adopted the Westie's 5 Fork restaurant and 5 Clap scale for shows,etc. We think the 10 point scale should apply to Beauty. I need to think a little bit more about your VP player scale... but overall, it's pretty good!

Eric

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@...> wrote:

Hi Diane,

There are many different "flavors" of players on this board. The main categories seem to be: 1) Professionals, who earn most of their income from gambling, 2) Serious, educated "Advantage Players", who endeavor to eek out the highest possible EV each time they risk their bankroll, 3) knowledgeable "Recreational Players" who, while usually seeking the highest payback and mostly sticking to correct strategy, occasionally play lower EV machines and deviate from proper holds strictly for the additional excitement of the play,
4) Recreational players who, while knowledgeable in pay tables and
EV CHOOSE to play at casinos which have a less advantageous VP inventory, because of free rooms, airfare, junkets and food credit
offers, 5) The rare (on this board) total ploppies, who donn't know what or how to play, and care only about getting "into action", regardless of the consequences to their bankroll.

#11

I have to say (because I forgot earlier) that I *love* the word Ploppies...

Never heard it before I started participating here, but it is an awesome descriptor of many people I have seen.? Usually those that irritate the heck out of me by asking me a zillion questions about the machine they have no clue about, yet they have already put money into it.
Especially after they hit "max bet" and can't figure out where ALL their money went!
Diane

···

-----Original Message-----
From: rosemontwestwood <rosemontwestwood@yahoo.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Jun 29, 2009 1:23 pm
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Seeing the forest from the trees

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@...> wrote:

Hi Diane,

There are many different "flavors" of players on this board. The main categories seem to be: 1) Professionals, who earn most of their income from gambling, 2) Serious, educated "Advantage Players", who endeavor to eek out the highest possible EV each time they risk their bankroll, 3) knowledgeable "Recreational Players" who, while usually seeking the highest payback and mostly sticking to correct strategy, occasionally play lower EV machines and deviate from proper holds strictly for the additional excitement of the play,
4) Recreational players who, while knowledgeable in pay tables and
EV CHOOSE to play at casinos which have a less advantageous VP inventory, because of free rooms, airfare, junkets and food credit
offers, 5) The rare (on this board) total ploppies, who donn't know what or how to play, and care only about getting "into action", regardless of the consequences to their bankroll.

Hmmmm... I like your rating system Babe. Now, there are some rating systems I won't change. The 100 pt. wine scale and 70 pt. coin grading scale come to mind. My GF and I have adopted the Westie's 5 Fork restaurant and 5 Clap scale for shows,etc. We think the 10 point scale should apply to Beauty. I need to think a little bit more about your VP player scale... but overall, it's pretty good!

Eric

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#12

Diane,

I know Red Rock and Green Valley well, so let me give you some pointers. In terms of best payback games, they are the same - in terms of variations in video poker, if you want to play new types of games you cannot find anywhere else - Red Rock is the best anywhere. None of their paytables will be good enough for what Babe defines at Category 1 or 2. Also be aware that Red Rock has donwgraded their Quick Quads as has GVR, the best Quick Quads in a Station prperty are at Palace Station (for $1 and up). Souhtpoint also had good $1 Quick Quads.

But as a tourist be aware of this - Station only gives you .1 in points and the Palms gives you .25. Station used to give discretionary comps to slot players, Red Rock in particular and GVR as well have stopped that, so they will make you drain your points for all comps, so you won't be able to use it for free play. You can get the room comped up front as a tourist sometimes, but that is it - they will pull your points for food. Even RFB is a fraud, because they is usually a $100 or $200 day limit on it, often undisclosed.

Station hosts are under so much pressure not to comp, that there is a high chance on anything that requires a decision you will ge screwed - get all up front deals confirmed in e-mails before you go.

The Palms is closer to the Strip, Red Rock is furthest from the Strip, it can cost you $70 to cab it to Red Rock with tip - if Red Rock is not sending a car for you or you are not renting one, skip it. As for the non-gaming things, Red Rock has nice ameneties, but be aware its buffet is so-so better than the Palms, not as good as GVR. The coffee shop at Red Rock is pitiful, the Palms coffee shop is excellent because Maloof himself eats there like everyday.

The restuarants only open for dinner are good at Red Rock particulalry steakhouse, Italian and Sushi - at GVR, I would recommend steakhouse, Chinese - be aware that Red Rock has no Chinese food anywhere except fast food court, if you are into that. Palms has great Chinese menu in its coffee shop. If you are staying at Red Rock order room service over coffee shop, it is much better.

The spa at Red Rock is really good, the pool areas at all three are good, I think Red Rock is best. The cocktail service at is best at Red Rock, followed by the Palms and GVR (tied) - but both GVR and Palms have terrible cocktail service - you will wait forever.

Station properties are cutting perks like mad, you will get a much better comp value at the Palms and better paytables. And don't trust any verbal committment from a Station host because management will often force them to renege.

Lastly, I think categories 1 and 2 are prett much the same and categories 3 and 4 are pretty much the same.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hrdiane" <HRDiane@...> wrote:

Babe,
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I "bounce" between #3 and #4. You provide good perspective and advice as have others.

Especially the part about the less reliance on HET for my trips. I started that change last trip when I spent 4 days at The Palms. First time I had stayed there although I had played twice before. My rooms were comped and I had plenty of food credits for my meals. I loved their choices of VP and as many have said, definitely better than HET.

Next trip I will be at M (although I am disappointed to hear that even before I get there ----- this group has reported their VP downgrades). I called a host at M and explained my gambling and VP play and she immediately offered to comp me for 3 nights without having had any play there at all. Just faith that I was a VP player as I had described. It was cool to just call and get 3 free nites at a property I had never visited.

Now, I will see if it works at GVR or Red Rock which are also places I have long wanted to visit.

I wouldn't have done the cold call to the host without the urging of people from this group. So thanks to all.

Diane

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@> wrote:
>
> Hi Diane,
>
> There are many different "flavors" of players on this board. The main categories seem to be: 1) Professionals, who earn most of their income from gambling, 2) Serious, educated "Advantage Players", who endeavor to eek out the highest possible EV each time they risk their bankroll, 3) knowledgeable "Recreational Players" who, while usually seeking the highest payback and mostly sticking to correct strategy, occasionally play lower EV machines and deviate from proper holds strictly for the additional excitement of the play,
> 4) Recreational players who, while knowledgeable in pay tables and
> EV CHOOSE to play at casinos which have a less advantageous VP inventory, because of free rooms, airfare, junkets and food credit
> offers, 5) The rare (on this board) total ploppies, who donn't know what or how to play, and care only about getting "into action", regardless of the consequences to their bankroll.
>
> I would assume that, from what you've posted, that you are probably
> in the 3rd or 4th category, depending on circumstances, in terms of your VP play.
>
> I am in the 3rd category, personally, but I have friends who are solidily in the 4th category. Most of them are current or former Diamond or 4* HET players, who value(d) the excellent perks that HET offer(ed) their players, more highly than always playing the best EV machines. This is NOBODY ELSE'S BUSINESS! It's their choice, their vacation time and their bankroll. I am definitely a VP Libertarian!
>
> Please don't think for one minute that by playing inferior payback
> machines, that you are causing the proliferation of poor VP. The casinos have always had tens of thousands of tourists who were more than willing to play anything that accepted money and dealt cards, and the casinos still offered positive VP back then.
>
> The unfortunate trend of downgrading pay tables that is so prevalent these days, is, IMO, the result of too many educated players, and too little discretationary income, that can be earmarked for recreational gambling.
>
> Please continue to have confidence in the gambling choices that YOU make, which suit YOUR particular desires and lifestyle, no matter how many posters may disrespect your decision or attempt to dissuade you. You are the ONLY one that should decide how you spend your time
> and money.
>
> That being said, I would suggest that with the current state of flux in which HET finds it's finances and leadership, that it would be prudent to look into alternate gambling venues. While you may not
> find another casino which offers as rich rewards to their loyal players, you can certainly find a casino that in addition to providing better VP opportunties, also offers generous comps, and great rooms and food.
>
> Good luck to you in whichever casinos you decide to favor with your
> patronage!
>
> ~Babe~
> ============================================================
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hrdiane" <HRDiane@> wrote:
>
> Now I feel like I have become the "poster child" for stupid
> gamblers who aren't willing to "work" really hard to find the
> best games on the few days I have to spend in Las Vegas on VACATION.....
>
> Diane
>