vpFREE2 Forums

SDG vp machines - the Match Card

#1

Hey y'all-

I live in Washington State and recently played at a Reservation
Casino that had nickel and quarter 8/5 JoB's. If you play the 20
credit option, the Royal odds jump from 800-1 (for 5 credits) to 1000-
1. Yes, I hit a Royal after 25 hours of play, leaving me well up for
my 3 sessions. Thank you very much, but that's not why I'm posting.

These machines are slant tops and uprights, very similar to Nevada
machines, manufactured by "SDG Games". They feature a "Match Card", a
seemingly random 6th card that pays you off some multiple of your bet
if it matches the Right-hand card of your final hand. The multiple is
seemingly random but usually one.

I say "Seemingly" because it doesn't take long to figure out that
this sixth match card is not random at all. It is a function of your
dealt cards and your draw cards. If you keep two pair and do NOT
draw a boat-filler, the match card will be the boat filler. Same on
un-filled straights and flushes. The match card kind of taunts you
when it does this. Watching the match card can slow you down and get
you out of synch.

But there's a positive glitch to the match card too. But the positive
glitch still bothers me:

The Match card also rewards you when you toss a made-pay to try a
riskier draw. Say you discard an Ace from AAKJx to hold the 3-card
Royal. Say you draw x-x, no payout. The match card matches EVERY
time, paying you off for the lost pair!!

Furthermore, it also pays you off for what you would have gotten!! It
must look ahead to the next 1,2 or 3 cards that you never see in the
stack. For example: Dealt: AA227 Keep AA ("imperfect play") Draw:
2xx The match card matches and you are paid off for the Full House!
(minus your 1-1 payoff for your pair of Aces) My friend was dealt 4
to the heart Royal, plus a fifth heart. He kept the flush (His
mistake). He holds all five, hits the draw and BOOM, the match card
matches him and pays 3975 credits for his 5 credit bet. The sixth
card must have given him the Royal, unseen of course, payoff was 4000
minus the 25 he got for the flush. Does this make these
machines "Idiot-proof"??

While this seems like a great bonus, probably off-setting the less
than 100% pay-back on the 8/5 JoB, it is still VERY confusing to me
and I really would like to figure it out and modify my strategy
accordingly.

Can anyone help?

Reply posts and/or off-line e-mails, your choice.

  ~~ Mark Time
      Seattle

#2

This is some of the freakiest info on the Match Card Bonus vp machines
in Washington that I've seen yet. Part of me is absolutely
fascinated, part of me frankly wonders if you're a bit out to lunch
(kidding! -- but I reserve the right to make that call later :).

I wish it wasn't a cross country haul to check out some of what you
report (I'm in Philly). I may comment or question further what you've
reported later, but there's one thing I have to ask about -- the
amount of the match card bonus.

If I read what you've written correctly, you seem to be suggesting
that the match card payout is a function of what the hand might have
paid had the hand filled with a win (although I can't quite make out
exactly how this works from your write-up or with what certainty):

Mark P. wrote:

Furthermore, it also pays you off for what you would have gotten!! It
must look ahead to the next 1,2 or 3 cards that you never see in the
stack. For example: Dealt: AA227 Keep AA ("imperfect play") Draw:
2xx The match card matches and you are paid off for the Full House!
(minus your 1-1 payoff for your pair of Aces) My friend was dealt 4
to the heart Royal, plus a fifth heart. He kept the flush (His
mistake). He holds all five, hits the draw and BOOM, the match card
matches him and pays 3975 credits for his 5 credit bet. The sixth
card must have given him the Royal, unseen of course, payoff was 4000
minus the 25 he got for the flush. Does this make these
machines "Idiot-proof"??

The RF bonus payout on the pat flush hold is astounding (by the way,
is this friend a couple of cards short of a full deck in forgoing the
4RF hold?)

While this seems like a great bonus, probably off-setting the less
than 100% pay-back on the 8/5 JoB, it is still VERY confusing to me
and I really would like to figure it out and modify my strategy
accordingly.

Can anyone help?

If everything that you report is on the up-and-up, then it's indeed a
great bonus -- far better than I really ever suspected.

However, there's one problem: The base game has an approximate 97.8%.
If the match card fell randomly it would add a bonus of over 2.5%,
making it a very attractive game. That alone made is suspiciously
unlikely that the match card was selected randomly and would actually
involve some type of selection that was adverse to the player.

Throw in what you're reporting now and the game would become
astoundingly positive. Now I think I've got real reason to avoid the
game like the plague -- it's simply too good to be true.

Speculate on strategy under these conditions ... I don't think so.
There simply are no oversight agencies to guaranty that the games
simulate random deals from a 52-card deck and under what's been
discussed here I'd have to assume that the game is "gaffed" in some
respects and there's no way to formulate an optimal strategy, much
less know the expected return on the game.

- Harry

#3

Mark. Congratulations on your royal. Count yourself as lucky. When my
wife and I started playing/studying vp a couple years ago I fed these
bonus match card machines in hopes that they were a better game than 8/5
paytable indicated These machines are not true vp machines but are
video lottery terminals(vlt). They operate no differently than the slot
machines beside them. A server in the back room of the casino is
running a random number generators for all the machines in the casino.
It spits out winners and losers at each of the video lottery
terminals(slots & vp machines) based on a predetermined payback
percentage. These machines do not randomly deal a 52 card deck every
hand you play. When you push the deal button the vlt(videopoker machine)
is selecting a random number that associates with a winning or non
winning payoff. If you win it displays cards that represent a winning
hand if not it shows a non paying hand. This is where the bonus match
card comes into play. Notice how often when you don't hold a paying
hand(say a pair of Jacks) on the draw the fifth card will match with the
bonus card with corresponding pay off as the pair of Jacks. How can it
be a randomly dealt game when a two cards can match. I have also seen a
paying pair discarded and a paying pair show up on the draw with one of
the cards matching one that was discarded. To me this is no different
than pull tabs using poker hands to represent winners and none losers.
If you want to read the rules(really guidelines) that Washington State
Native American casino have to follow go to www.wsgc.gov/tribal.htm .
In the guidelines they even refer to the cards(or symbols on the slots)
as Electronic Scratch Tickets. Bonus Card Match is the predominate vp
like machine on the west side of the state. I did see a different game
at the Little Creek Casino(near Shelton)called High Noon with a paytable
of: RF=4500,SF=500,4ok=400,FH=30,Fl=25,Strt=20,3ok=15,2ok=10 & JOB=5.
Winpoker calculates payback at 108.875% and variance of 38.12045. Ran
strategy thru vpsm and it definitely put out a interesting strategy. For
example if this was truly a legitimate vp machine perfect strategy would
be to break up a full house and hold the 3 of a kind In hopes of drawing
to 4 of a kind. I find it hard to believe a casino offering a 8%
advantage to its patrons. There is a reason that every man women and
child who is a member of Puyallup tribe receives a $2000 per person
check monthly from the Emerald Queen Casino. It is not offering full pay
video poker. Use your Royal Flush winnings as bankroll for Video Poker
trips to LV, Reno and Tahoe where the games are legit you can have the
advantage selecting games with full payback paytables, if proper
strategy is used. There is no advantage only lucky at vp in Washington
State. Poker or BJ would be a better bet.

Hey y'all-

I live in Washington State and recently played at a Reservation
Casino that had nickel and quarter 8/5 JoB's. If you play the 20
credit option, the Royal odds jump from 800-1 (for 5 credits) to 1000-
1. Yes, I hit a Royal after 25 hours of play, leaving me well up for
my 3 sessions. Thank you very much, but that's not why I'm posting.

Reply posts and/or off-line e-mails, your choice.

  ~~ Mark Time
      Seattle

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···

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark P. <mark_my_words_again@yahoo.com>
[mailto:mark_my_words_ag…@…com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 3:37 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] SDG vp machines - the Match Card

#4

thanks SingleLine (moosenlucy) for the absolute bombshell post.

I feel DUPED by the Tribal Casinos here in Washington. The machines
are very good imitations of the nevada machines. But I guess my RADAR
was going off for all the correct reasons - that Match Card was too
good to be true. I can't believe I pulled out my cheat sheet a
couple times. Well, at least I hit them for a Jackpot. Hit 'em then
quit 'em.

THANK YOU so much. you've saved me many many hours of play. Needless
to say, I won't be returning for ("video poker") electronic scratch
cards. The question remains as to how much negative publicity I
should engage in. I'd at least like to give some washington state
residents a clue that these games aren't what they seem.

So, Harry - thank you too. You also "smelled a rat". Turns out my
friend NOT holding the 4RF didn't matter at all. At the time, he was
distracted (that was his excuse). But maybe he was smarter than his
friends, maybe he realized the match card revealed a fixed game and
what he held didn't matter.

For my next thread, I'll dig into the Oregon state gaming rules and
see if their state-lottery-run VP machines are random or "fixed".

~Mark P.

Hey y'all-

I live in Washington State and recently played at a Reservation
Casino that had nickel and quarter 8/5 JoB's.

  <SNIP>

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mark P. wrote:

  ~~ Mark Time
      Seattle

#5

Don't bother. They are random but none of the casinos have VP that pay even
close to 95%. Try 6/5 JB. Seven Feathers has a few progressives but I
doubt they ever get high enough to be positive. I actually think their
nickle slot machines may pay out more than their VP. I think there is some
regulation that they cannot pay out more than the lottery VP. OOPs, I just
noticed that you were talking about the state lottery VP. These also have
very poor pay tables.

Sylvia

···

For my next thread, I'll dig into the Oregon state gaming rules and
see if their state-lottery-run VP machines are random or "fixed".

~Mark P.