vpFREE2 Forums

Saving pennies - Bob Dancer's "Flow Chart" for Penalty Cards

#1

On 11/15, the Administrator posted a link to Bob Dancer's latest
CasinoGaming Column , titled "Creating Flow Charts" -
http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2005/1115.html.

He gives his method of playing 9/5 Super Double Bonus using a flow
chart to keep track of penalty card situations.

Here is one of his examples -

"A versus "JT"

Is there a flush penalty to the "JT"?
     If no, play "JT" -- end
     If yes, continue

Is the fifth card suited with the A?
     If yes, is it an 8 or 9?
        If yes, play AJ -- end
        If no, play "JT" -- end
     If no, continue

Is the fp to the "JT" a 6, and the fifth card a 7?
     If yes, play A -- end
     If no, continue

Is the fifth card an 8 or 9?
     If yes, play A -- end
     If no, play "JT" -- end"

I used the above for the following hand - Jsp/Tsp/6sp/Ah/7d.
This took me all the way through his chart to the next to last
part -
"Is the fp to the "JT" a 6, and the fifth card a 7?
     If yes, play A -- end
     If no, continue"

Normally in this game, the JspTsp is played rather than a lone Ace.

In this case, memorizing all of these rules,playing the Ace has an
advantage on a $1 vp machine ($5 per hand) of 00.58 cents (58
hundredths of one penny).
On a $5 vp machine ($25 per hand) the extra advantage of playing the
Ace is 2.9 cents.

Curiously, Dancer never gives the value of each penalty card
situation. I suggest that this should always be included.
If someone told you that if you drive an extra 2 1/2 miles to a
different market you will save money, would you want to know if the
savings is 58 hundredths of a penny or 58 dollars? I would.

I also believe that when penalty card situations are displayed, the
frequency of the event occurrence should be noted each time.

I.e., what if the above situation, on average, playing 800 hands per
hour on a $1 vp machine, will occur once every 6 hours? So that
after memorizing this situation you now know that every 4,800 hands
on average you will earn an extra 00.58 cents. Every twelve hours it
will earn you an extra penny plus 16 hundredths of another penny.
(There is an excellent analysis of this in Paymar's book.

Using my market analogy, if someone said that if you drive the extra
2 1/2 miles to the other market you will save money sometimes -
don't you think they need to tell you how often that "sometimes"
will be in order to evaluate?

And the "earn" is conditional upon you not being slowed down at all
by memorizing all of the above plus all of the many other penalty
card situations.I believe it is not possible to not be slowed down
by this to some extent. If you play 1 less hand per hour (799
instead of 800), what is your loss vs. the gain in penalty card
pennies?
If you make one mistake every 40 hours due to an overly complicated
strategy, what is your loss vs. the penalty card gain?

Worth it? Not for me. And not for the professional players I know.

It is not a matter of professional player vs. non-pro.
Skip Hughes correctly suggested that there is more ev in searching
for coins left in pay phones. This is true for all players.

#2

jw776655 wrote:

···

On 11/15, the Administrator posted a link to Bob Dancer's latest CasinoGaming Column , titled "Creating Flow Charts" -
http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2005/1115.html.

He gives his method of playing 9/5 Super Double Bonus using a flow chart to keep track of penalty card situations.

Here is one of his examples -

"A versus "JT"

Is there a flush penalty to the "JT"?
    If no, play "JT" -- end
    If yes, continue

Is the fifth card suited with the A?
    If yes, is it an 8 or 9?
       If yes, play AJ -- end
       If no, play "JT" -- end
    If no, continue

Is the fp to the "JT" a 6, and the fifth card a 7?
    If yes, play A -- end
    If no, continue

Is the fifth card an 8 or 9? If yes, play A -- end
    If no, play "JT" -- end"

I used the above for the following hand - Jsp/Tsp/6sp/Ah/7d.
This took me all the way through his chart to the next to last part - "Is the fp to the "JT" a 6, and the fifth card a 7?
    If yes, play A -- end
    If no, continue"

Normally in this game, the JspTsp is played rather than a lone Ace.

In this case, memorizing all of these rules,playing the Ace has an advantage on a $1 vp machine ($5 per hand) of 00.58 cents (58 hundredths of one penny).
On a $5 vp machine ($25 per hand) the extra advantage of playing the Ace is 2.9 cents.

Curiously, Dancer never gives the value of each penalty card situation. I suggest that this should always be included.
If someone told you that if you drive an extra 2 1/2 miles to a different market you will save money, would you want to know if the savings is 58 hundredths of a penny or 58 dollars? I would.

I also believe that when penalty card situations are displayed, the frequency of the event occurrence should be noted each time.

I.e., what if the above situation, on average, playing 800 hands per hour on a $1 vp machine, will occur once every 6 hours? So that after memorizing this situation you now know that every 4,800 hands on average you will earn an extra 00.58 cents. Every twelve hours it will earn you an extra penny plus 16 hundredths of another penny.
(There is an excellent analysis of this in Paymar's book.

Using my market analogy, if someone said that if you drive the extra 2 1/2 miles to the other market you will save money sometimes - don't you think they need to tell you how often that "sometimes" will be in order to evaluate?

And the "earn" is conditional upon you not being slowed down at all by memorizing all of the above plus all of the many other penalty card situations.I believe it is not possible to not be slowed down by this to some extent. If you play 1 less hand per hour (799 instead of 800), what is your loss vs. the gain in penalty card pennies?
If you make one mistake every 40 hours due to an overly complicated strategy, what is your loss vs. the penalty card gain?

Worth it? Not for me. And not for the professional players I know.

It is not a matter of professional player vs. non-pro.
Skip Hughes correctly suggested that there is more ev in searching for coins left in pay phones. This is true for all players.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

--
Thanks!
Skip
http://www.vpinsider.com

#3

Sorry about the blank, I started to send a reply before I had finished reading the note, but by the time I read the whole thing, I realized JW had covered it like a blanket. I can only add that ALL penalty card considerations add only .002% to the non-penalty card SDB strategy. It's 99.69% for both methods.
Skip

#4

Skip wrote: I realized JW had covered it like a blanket

Indeed he did. JW seems to exist on this board to say negative things
about Bob Dancer. Of his only nine posts since rejoining vpFREE, seven
have been anti-Dancer. Perhaps he doesn't like me. Ya think? While Skip
posts on a variety of subjects, he can be counted on to say that penalty
cards are irrelevant each and every time the subject comes up.

The fact remains: I am an extremely successful player and I study and
utilize penalty cards extensively. My goal in the recent column was to
share with other players trying to improve their game just how I do it.
If Skip and JW think I'm wasting my time by becoming that knowledgeable,
fine. That's their right. But they've each expressed that point of view
a number of times, and each of my articles is different. And each is a
good-faith attempt on my part to educate others.

Am I being overly sensitive, or is this tag-teaming by these guys unfair
and tedious to others as well?

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5

Bob, the purpose of this forum (as far as I know) is to discuss various aspects of video poker, including strategy. Your columns which discuss these things are posted as links here. So they are subject to analysis like everything else. Actually they would be fair game even if they weren't posted here.
  It's true that when I see posts concerning penalty cards I will almost always reply. That's because I think people have been mislead about their importance for many years and I'm trying to correct that, but I'm not part of a tag team and I have no idea what JW posted before or he (if it is a he) is. His comments that the cost of ignoring a penalty card is not the cost of a single incidence cost but that cost multiplied by its occurrance, is an important point.

The administrator has correctly tried to stop personal attacks and derogatory personal comments here, but ideas are pretty much OK, last I noticed.
Skip

Bob Dancer wrote:

···

Skip wrote: I realized JW had covered it like a blanket

Indeed he did. JW seems to exist on this board to say negative things
about Bob Dancer. Of his only nine posts since rejoining vpFREE, seven
have been anti-Dancer. Perhaps he doesn't like me. Ya think? While Skip
posts on a variety of subjects, he can be counted on to say that penalty
cards are irrelevant each and every time the subject comes up.

The fact remains: I am an extremely successful player and I study and
utilize penalty cards extensively. My goal in the recent column was to
share with other players trying to improve their game just how I do it.
If Skip and JW think I'm wasting my time by becoming that knowledgeable,
fine. That's their right. But they've each expressed that point of view
a number of times, and each of my articles is different. And each is a
good-faith attempt on my part to educate others.

Am I being overly sensitive, or is this tag-teaming by these guys unfair
and tedious to others as well?

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

--
Thanks!
Skip
http://www.vpinsider.com

#6

Hi!

I don't usually reply to these penalty card things but, hey, I
always like to put my $0.02 in.

The new things that I have heard in the most recent parts of this
thread (at least I think that they are new) concerns a request
for "priority lists" of penalty card situations, giving their
effects on EV in some sort of a decending sequence. Exactly which
are the "important" ones and how much is each one worth would, I
think, help all of us make an intelligent decision as to penalty
cards and their use in the particular style of play that each of us
uses. Of course, I don't know everything <grin> and maybe these
lists already exist. If they do, I apologize for taking up
bandwidth.

Going on with my rant, the other "new" thing (at least to me) is
knowing the "frequency" that each of these penalty card situations
might have. If a particular situation is very common, maybe I
should keep it in the back of my head. If it is rare, I might want
to forget about it.

Anyway....my feelings...

.....bl

#7

I think, to everyones' benefit, that online forums do not work like a flow
chart. It works more like bumper cars. Ideas crash together at odd angles
and the results can be fun and interesting and educational. We each take
from that exchange what suits our needs and every idea posted in an online
forum is open to criticism by necessity. Some may perceive a criticism to
be unfair or even as tedious as this post of mine. That may be a justified
perception. We can posit a rational counter argument or ignore it. In
either case it is a part of the price for participating in a forum. People
who publicly traffic in the ideas relevant to our forum often get more
scrutiny and criticism than others. Ask Jean, Skip, Dan, RS, or even vpFAE
and the current admin whether posts critical of them have occasionally
seemed unfair or tedious.

I may roll my eyes occasionally, but I try not to take any criticism
personally. I have disagreed with numerous people on this forum openly and
think no less of those who have argued against my position. I often learn
from them. I'm positive I can learn from you as well.

Chandler

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
Bob Dancer
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 3:26 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Saving pennies - Bob Dancer's "Flow Chart" for
Penalty Cards

Am I being overly sensitive, or is this tag-teaming by these guys unfair
and tedious to others as well?

Bob Dancer

#8

<<The new things that I have heard in the most recent parts of this
thread concerns a request
for "priority lists" of penalty card situations, giving their
effects on EV in some sort of a descending sequence. Exactly which
are the "important" ones and how much is each one worth would, I
think, help all of us make an intelligent decision as to penalty
cards and their use in the particular style of play that each of us
uses.....the other "new" thing (at least to me) is
knowing the "frequency" that each of these penalty card situations
might have. If a particular situation is very common, maybe I
should keep it in the back of my head. If it is rare, I might want
to forget about it.>>

I too think that this would be valuable useful information. Flow charts are good for a few players, but I bet most players use the Delete key when they see that much complexity.

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards.
  NEW - Blackjack Strategy Cards +
              Updated Second Edition of
             "The Frugal Gambler."

#9

Jean wrote: Flow charts are good for a few players, but I bet most
players use the Delete key when they see that much complexity.

I agree with Jean's assessment. Understanding penalty cards, however
formatted, are certainly not for "most players." Most players are either
not experienced enough, not bright enough, don't understand that
learning a game well is worth a LOT more than the 0.002% figure bandied
about, and/or not serious enough about squeezing everything out of the
possibilities to worry about it.

This is akin to a discussion whether or not the Poisson distribution is
the right one to use in discussing specific Risk of Ruin situations.
Most players aren't interested in and/or mathematically competent enough
to follow that discussion. But a few are, and that discussion goes on
unharrassed.

For the players who are competent and interested, the flow chart can be
useful. I don't publish that sort of column very often, largely because
the audience for it is small.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#10

Understanding penalty cards, however formatted, are certainly not

for "most players." Most players are either not experienced enough, not
bright enough, ... This is akin to a discussion whether or not the
Poisson distribution is the right one to use in discussing specific
Risk of Ruin situations. Most players aren't interested in and/or
mathematically competent enough... to follow that discussion. For the
players who are competent and interested, the flow chart can be useful.
I don't publish that sort of column very often, largely because the
audience for it is small.

Bob Dancer<<<

This is really a case of "Bob" flattering himself. The idea that it
takes the same level of education and intelligence to understand a more
complcated strategy chart as it does to understand the application of
different probability distributions or to understand the nature of
convergence in infinite series is laughable. Even though these topics
are covered in an introductory mathematical statistics classes and
introductory Calculus classes respectively. It doesn't take a high
level of intelligence to memorize a strategy sheet, no matter how many
lines it contains. I noticed that "Bob has not chimed in on these more
mathematical discussions, I guess these topics are beyond his
mathematical competence level.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@c...> wrote:

#11

In reply to (from Skip): "I realized JW had covered it like a blanket"

Bob Dancer wrote:

Indeed he did. JW seems to exist on this board to say negative
things about Bob Dancer. Of his only nine posts since rejoining
vpFREE, seven have been anti-Dancer. Perhaps he doesn't like me. Ya
think? While Skip posts on a variety of subjects, he can be counted
on to say that penalty cards are irrelevant each and every time the
subject comes up.

Am I being overly sensitive, or is this tag-teaming by these guys
unfair and tedious to others as well?

I'm not sure at this late point you're looking for another reply (or,
if your post may have been intended to rhetorically make a point), but
I'll offer up the following ...

Without reviewing JW's earlier posts, I'd suggest he's made negative
observations about your vp philosophy -- not you personally (of
course, that may be what you meant ... to most people you ARE your vp
philosophies :wink:

As far as Skip goes, I'll say for myself that there are a limited
number of points on which I'm compelled to repeatedly add the same
take every time they come up (even if in different contexts), when
it's the case that I think it's important for others to weigh an
alternative view. (I'm reasonably humble in the import of what I
think, of course :wink:

Likewise, I'd certainly look for you to jump in with your take any
and every time someone might write a post from a reasonably
knowledgable perspective yet asserts penalty considerations are
irrelevent to sensible play.

So, while I can certainly understand that a static line of feedback
would prove tedious for you, I wouldn't characterize the dialogue as
"tag teaming" or suggest in it's poor spirit.

- Harry

#12

vp_mavin wrote:

This is really a case of "Bob" flattering himself.

You've been around long enough that there's every reason to think you
grasp the difference between "criticizing the idea" and "criticizing
the person". The latter is pointless (when it comes to the purpose of
this group) and not welcome here - per policy.

- H.

#13

For the most part I agree with Chandlers assessment of this. The only
exception I would make would be when participants feel they "have to be
right" and dig their heels in rather than just letting some of the personal
stuff go. If the participants have some history or personal vendettas
behind the scenes that is fine but in my opinion it is mostly appropriate to
take that portion over to private email and leave it there.
  I feel that I am intelligent enough (most of the time anyway ;)!!!) to make
rational and reasoned decisions on how I want to play VP. This has been
evolving since 1996 when I first discovered the LVA and a year or two later
the SHG and all the wonderful people we have met since then. I continue to
read as much as I can on the subject and always enjoy different points of
view and all of the different authors, math people and software makers etc.
  To all the VP gurus: Why not just let your work stand on it's own merits
and let the chips fall where they may? Let the personal stuff go, agree to
disagree, whatever it takes and move on.
  Now I can go back to getting over myself and this short rant and move on.
  Thanks to the Admistrator for putting up with all of us.
Jon

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
Chandler
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 10:51 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Saving pennies - Bob Dancer's "Flow Chart" for
Penalty Cards

I think, to everyones' benefit, that online forums do not work like a flow
chart. It works more like bumper cars. Ideas crash together at odd angles
and the results can be fun and interesting and educational. We each take
from that exchange what suits our needs and every idea posted in an online
forum is open to criticism by necessity. Some may perceive a criticism to
be unfair or even as tedious as this post of mine. That may be a justified
perception. We can posit a rational counter argument or ignore it. In
either case it is a part of the price for participating in a forum. People
who publicly traffic in the ideas relevant to our forum often get more
scrutiny and criticism than others. Ask Jean, Skip, Dan, RS, or even vpFAE
and the current admin whether posts critical of them have occasionally
seemed unfair or tedious.

I may roll my eyes occasionally, but I try not to take any criticism
personally. I have disagreed with numerous people on this forum openly and
think no less of those who have argued against my position. I often learn
from them. I'm positive I can learn from you as well.

Chandler

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
Bob Dancer
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 3:26 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Saving pennies - Bob Dancer's "Flow Chart" for
Penalty Cards

Am I being overly sensitive, or is this tag-teaming by these guys unfair
and tedious to others as well?

Bob Dancer

#14

Harry are you the NEW Administrator of the Group? (Posting Policy #8)

"Let the Administrator do the administrating. Administrative posts by
self-appointed Assistant Administrators, even when well intentioned,
tend to be counter-productive. "

...or perhaps you just consider yourself "Special".

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...> wrote:

vp_mavin wrote:
> This is really a case of "Bob" flattering himself.

You've been around long enough that there's every reason to think you
grasp the difference between "criticizing the idea" and "criticizing
the person". The latter is pointless (when it comes to the purpose of
this group) and not welcome here - per policy.

- H.

#15

vp_mavin wrote:

Harry are you the NEW Administrator of the Group? (Posting Policy #8)

Fair call ... mea culpa. I should have left it a simple "this stuff
is disheartening to see".

- H.

#16

Bob Dancer wrote - "The fact remains: I am an extremely successful
player and I study and utilize penalty cards extensively."

"I am an extremely successful player..."

I have no idea if this is true or not.

In a previous post or article you stated that you are in the top 5%
of vp players.
Is there a Sagarin ranking for VP Players?
Card Player magazine has a ranking for poker players - is there
somewhere you can cite where I can verify your vp ranking?

It may also be necessary, as others have pointed out, to
define "successful".

"I am an extremely successful player and I study and utilize penalty
cards extensively."

However - Assuming you are indeed in the top 5% of vp players, and
if you are indeed "successful" at vp - think of how much higher your
ranking would be, and how much more "successful" you would be, if
you dispensed with your penalty cards.

I'd like to make sure that all realize how absolutely trivial the
gain is from penalty cards.

If one plays $5 vp single play machines ($25/spin) and plays 800
hands/hour, one is running $20,000 per hour through the machine.

Suppose one plays 40 hours per week. One therefore has run EIGHT
HUNDRED THOUSAND through the machine that week.

The total savings from penalty card play - as Skip Hughes has
pointed out, it's 00.001% for most games - is EIGHT dollars for
the 40 hours you played.

If the 40 hours per week is at the rate of 8 hours per day - you are
earning an extra ONE DOLLAR and sixty cents per day.

An extra TWENTY CENTS per hour.
(This should not be a surprise to anyone who read my initial post in
this thread).
This is after playing eight hundred thousand dollars.
(Perhaps someday you can graduate to migrant labor, and begin to
earn the big bucks).

With 9/5 Super Double Bonus, Hughes stated that penalty card play
gets 00.002% total gain - sixteen dollars per week/three dollars and
twenty cents per day.
In this case, a stellar FORTY CENTS PER HOUR extra for the above
$25/spin vp player.

If you are a 25 cent vp player ($1.25 per spin) playing 800 hands
per hour, 8 hours per day, 40 hours per week, your total saving for
the WEEK is FORTY PENNIES at the majority of vp games, and eighty
pennies extra for the week playing 9/5 Super Double Bonus - that's
one cent and two cents PER HOUR extra, folks.

For some reason, Dancer has never mentioned the theoretical gain of
00.001 to 00.002% using his complex strategies in any of the
voluminous writings and advertisements he has done on his penalty
card play.
This is certainly one of the most important facts which could be
disclosed.
I can think of no positive reason for never mentioning this.

Also -

The extra amount of time someone using Dancer's system must practice
has to be amortized.

I.e. -

Suppose there will be a ten week promotion, and the best game at
that casino is Super Double Bonus.
Player A puts in 40 hours of practice to learn Super Double Bonus
using a basic computer generated strategy.
How many more hours of practice do you think it would take to learn
Dancer's system?
If Player B puts in 300 hours of practice instead of 40 because they
feel this will allow them to earn an extra 40 cents per hour at $5
vp, then they have invested 260 hours more than the player who
learned the basic strategy.

Now they both go off and play Super Double Bonus for 400 hours (10
weeks at 40 hours per week).

To figure their hourly earn -
Player A would divide his profit by 440 - his true time investment
in the enterprise was 400 hours play and 40 hours practice.
Player B would divide his profit by 700 - his true time investment
in the enterprise was 400 hours play and 300 hours practice.

Obviously I used random figures, but you get the idea - the extra
effort to learn the penalty card flow chart strategies is extra work
time, and must realistically be regarded as such.
So the final earn is less than the theoretical extra 40 cents per
hour we've already calculated.

However, that's not the end of it.
I am convinced that the extra penny per hour at most games (or 20
cents per hour at $25/spin)is simply not real and cannot be attained
by anyone.

Remember, the above figures are based on PERFECT, error-free play.

It is based on maintaining the same speed as you would maintain if
you played a penalty card free strategy.

Here is the flow chart Dancer uses for just one of his penalty card
situations -

"A versus "JT"

Is there a flush penalty to the "JT"?
If no, play "JT" -- end
If yes, continue

Is the fifth card suited with the A?
If yes, is it an 8 or 9?
If yes, play AJ -- end
If no, play "JT" -- end
If no, continue

Is the fp to the "JT" a 6, and the fifth card a 7?
If yes, play A -- end
If no, continue

Is the fifth card an 8 or 9?
If yes, play A -- end
If no, play "JT" -- end"

Let's look at one hand Ah/Jsp/Tsp/6sp/7d.
When I look at it, I can see at once that there is no pair, that
there is no four flush (3 black cards/2 red cards), and I can
instantly hit Jsp/Tsp, which is what I always hold in this situation.

Dancer would also instantly notice what I've described. However, IN
THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME, he also -
a) Checks to see if there is a flush penalty to the Jsp/Tsp;
then
b) Checks to see if the fifth card is suited with the A;
then
c)Checks to see if the flush penalty card is a 6;
then
d) Because it is a 6, he checks to see if the 5th card is 7.

And he does this for countless other penalty situations, yet loses
no speed vs. the non-penalty card player, and never makes an error.
How does he manage this?
Based on his writings -
a)Because he is a "professional" (More on this some other time);
and,
b) Because he practices a lot.

OK.

Again, I submit that this is simply not possible.

As I've mentioned, there is no professional I know of who would
consider wasting time and effort on these penalty card flow charts.
I am personally convinced that there is NO professional who spends
time on this.

After reading the above calculations, which perhaps you never looked
at closely before, I can't imagine that any of you could take this
seriously either.

#17

jw776655 wrote:

As I've mentioned, there is no professional I know of who would
consider wasting time and effort on these penalty card flow charts.
I am personally convinced that there is NO professional who spends
time on this.

You've made your argument pretty lucidly. I don't intend to argue
against the heart of it.

But, speaking as a casual recreational player, factoring in the core
penalty situations in a game such as DB isn't an onerous obstacle to
play. I'm, of course, talking about things like an unsuited A-HC or
suited KQ-LC. Personally, I don't find it slows me down by more than
5 hands per hour and, in keeping my attention more atune, is a factor
in keeping me on my toes and improving my accuracy.

Why leave half a buck an hour on the table ($1 play) when it doesn't
take even as much effort as stooping down to pick it up off the floor
might? (Granted, it's a different story when you're playing an
exceptionally good opportunity where each lost hand of play has a
sizable cost ... but other strategy aspects tend to be affected as
well then.)

It doesn't take much of a stretch of my imagination to see where a
player who is at the game a multitude of hours more than myself could
become just as adept at handling the very infrequent penalty
situations. I can't find a reason why such a player wouldn't grab a
few more pennies EV here and there if it truly was a near no-brainer.

Look, I truly get your perspective and acknowledge it. But I think to
a very large extent it's possible to do the same for Dancer's, no
matter where you're coming from on this. There are simply better
things to get hung up about (we clearly need another good Harrah's
rant ;).

- H.

#18

Understanding penalty cards, however
formatted, are certainly not for "most players." Most players are

either

not experienced enough, not bright enough, don't understand that
learning a game well is worth a LOT more than the 0.002% figure

bandied

about, and/or not serious enough about squeezing everything out of the
possibilities to worry about it.
Bob Dancer

Hmmmmm.

I have 8 years experience at advantage VP.
I believe/understand the mathematical computations of VP penalty card
worth.
I am serious about VP.

Hence, the only logical conclusion I can draw from this message is you
think that I am dumb ... "not bright enough" to worry about "it"
(understanding penalty cards).

Is subtlely calling those who disagree with you "not bright" your
normal approach to a debate?

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@c...> wrote:

#19

Harry, I believe you are missing the point of the debate. Dancer has
taken the position in his column and his recent posts that you MUST
use penalty cards to be considered successful. Jw776655 is presenting
arguments that counter Dancers' claim. Jw776655 has not claimed, so
far, that NOT using penalty cards is required to be successful. Just
that they may not work to your advantage. You can't agree with
both "perspectives" as they are opposing views ... unless you are
running for political office :wink:

I agree with jw776655 even though I often use penalty cards myself. I
use them to keep the game more interesting but only to the extent
that they are easy to diagnose and do not disrupt my play. I think
this is pretty much what you said in your post, however, it does not
address the main thrust of the debate (penalty cards MUST be used to
be successful).

Dick

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:

jw776655 wrote:
> As I've mentioned, there is no professional I know of who would
> consider wasting time and effort on these penalty card flow

charts.

> I am personally convinced that there is NO professional who

spends

> time on this.

You've made your argument pretty lucidly. I don't intend to argue
against the heart of it.

But, speaking as a casual recreational player, factoring in the core
penalty situations in a game such as DB isn't an onerous obstacle to
play. I'm, of course, talking about things like an unsuited A-HC or
suited KQ-LC. Personally, I don't find it slows me down by more

than

5 hands per hour and, in keeping my attention more atune, is a

factor

in keeping me on my toes and improving my accuracy.

Why leave half a buck an hour on the table ($1 play) when it doesn't
take even as much effort as stooping down to pick it up off the

floor

might? (Granted, it's a different story when you're playing an
exceptionally good opportunity where each lost hand of play has a
sizable cost ... but other strategy aspects tend to be affected as
well then.)

It doesn't take much of a stretch of my imagination to see where a
player who is at the game a multitude of hours more than myself

could

become just as adept at handling the very infrequent penalty
situations. I can't find a reason why such a player wouldn't grab a
few more pennies EV here and there if it truly was a near no-

brainer.

Look, I truly get your perspective and acknowledge it. But I think

to

···

a very large extent it's possible to do the same for Dancer's, no
matter where you're coming from on this. There are simply better
things to get hung up about (we clearly need another good Harrah's
rant ;).

- H.

#20

mroejacks wrote:

Harry, I believe you are missing the point of the debate. Dancer has
taken the position in his column and his recent posts that you MUST
use penalty cards to be considered successful. Jw776655 is
presenting arguments that counter Dancers' claim.

I haven't missed anything ... though I may be sidestepping a thing or
two :wink:

I think I made it clear that I had no qualms with JW's quantitative
arguments. But there's a huge element of this general discussion
that's been waged on ground that's not strictly relevent to the "point
of the debate". It serves to weaken the heart of an argument when
this is the case. That was my focus in my most recent post.

Concerning that central point: I thoroughly get and acknowledge JW's
and Skip's positions ... they've been coherently made. In truth, I
don't have a firm grip on Dancer's perspective -- likely because my
mind isn't entirely atuned to his take in this case.

However, the idea that the most successful player would strive to
master the minutiae of the game resonates with me -- that's been my
experience professionally in finance. Frequently the guy who sweats
the small stuff is also the guy who's got him arms securely around the
big picture and knows the whole operation intimately inside and out.

I have every reason to expect that most of the players at the very top
of the food chain are those who have taken their game study to the
limit, along with every other aspect of pro play. But then again, I'm
way out of my league here and clearly speaking out my ... :wink:

- Harry