vpFREE2 Forums

Same machine, same Pay Schedule, program not the same -- true or false?

#1

If 2 identical machines (meaning the same make (IGT), same pay
schedule except 1 is a Progressive and the other a non-Progressive)
are compared, are they supposed to be programmed the same or
different? Sorry for being so naive in this topic. I should be
reading more vp books, I guess.

Maybe it's just all coincidence but, it seems to me that quads, full
houses, etc. come out more frequently in the non-progressive machines
than the progressive ones (same pay schedules).

In the case where the progressive's pay schedule is less, then I
would think that these machines are programmed the same way as the
non-progressive machines.

Appreciate your input very much!

#2

As far as distribution of hands the 2 machines will be the same. They will be using the same type of Random Number Generator "RNG" .
The differences you have seen were coincidence.

Regards
A.P.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: gilbert_616
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 12:04 PM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Same machine, same Pay Schedule, program not the same -- true or false?

  If 2 identical machines (meaning the same make (IGT), same pay
  schedule except 1 is a Progressive and the other a non-Progressive)
  are compared, are they supposed to be programmed the same or
  different? Sorry for being so naive in this topic. I should be
  reading more vp books, I guess.

  Maybe it's just all coincidence but, it seems to me that quads, full
  houses, etc. come out more frequently in the non-progressive machines
  than the progressive ones (same pay schedules).

  In the case where the progressive's pay schedule is less, then I
  would think that these machines are programmed the same way as the
  non-progressive machines.

  Appreciate your input very much!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3

Thanks Albert!

So there is no such thing as 1 vp machine set to have quads to occur
every 400 draws (on JoB) and another machine set to have quads occur
quads every 420 draws, for example. In short, nothing like just
tweaking a number/variable in the program to alter the frequency of
the winning hands.

Next time, the choice is clear for me. Play the Progressives if
their pay schedules are the same as the non-progressives...

As far as distribution of hands the 2 machines will be the same.

They will be using the same type of Random Number Generator "RNG" .

The differences you have seen were coincidence.

Regards
A.P.
  From: gilbert_616
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 12:04 PM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Same machine, same Pay Schedule, program not

the same -- true or false?

  If 2 identical machines (meaning the same make (IGT), same pay
  schedule except 1 is a Progressive and the other a non-

Progressive)

  are compared, are they supposed to be programmed the same or
  different? Sorry for being so naive in this topic. I should be
  reading more vp books, I guess.

  Maybe it's just all coincidence but, it seems to me that quads,

full

  houses, etc. come out more frequently in the non-progressive

machines

  than the progressive ones (same pay schedules).

  In the case where the progressive's pay schedule is less, then I
  would think that these machines are programmed the same way as

the

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Pearson" <a-p@s...> wrote:

  ----- Original Message -----
  non-progressive machines.

  Appreciate your input very much!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

gilbert_616 wrote:

snip

... So there is no such thing as 1 vp machine set to have quads to occur
every 400 draws (on JoB) and another machine set to have quads occur
quads every 420 draws, for example. ...

snip

Any VP machine -- if it is honest -- has a completely random deal and draw from the deck. Any 'tweaking', as you had thought might be possible, would make some of those draws non-random, and the game would therefore be 'fixed'. I have heard that this does happen, for instance, in casinos on Indian Reservations, because they are not subject to regulation by state gaming commissions. I've never been to an Indian Casino, so I'm not really familiar with them, don't know if the accusations are true, nor how any changes would be implemented. If this happens, I don't know whether those casinos are 'honest' enough to post some sort of a notice on the machine, such as 'this machine does not rely entirely on a random deck' ... or something to that effect which I feel they _should_ do if the game is not entirely random.

Bill Velek

Next time, the choice is clear for me. Play the Progressives if
their pay schedules are the same as the non-progressives...

That is usually not the case, ... but you never know. Usually, the progressives are short on at least one hand -- which is how they feed the progressive; it could be the Full House, or the Flush, (or both), or even one of the lower lines, such as paying just 1 betting-unit for 2-pair in JoB, or possibly requiring Kings or Better instead of Jacks or Better, and that sort of thing.

Good Luck.

Bill Velek

#5

The new casino opens this Thursday, and I'll provide a
report of what I find on this forum. If anyone has
any specific questions they want answered about the
new casino, let me know ASAP.

This past Saturday, I overheard one casino employee at
the old Argosy say 100% of the machines are TITO.
That will be sweet.

Death to Token Slime.

carlos

#6

This past Saturday, I overheard one casino employee at
the old Argosy say 100% of the machines are TITO.
That will be sweet.

Death to Token Slime.

Considering that I have yet to see TITO Gamemakers w/ AA, this may
not be good for all the AA Argosy has.

hockeystl

#7

Updates on the better VP machine denominations and locations
for the DataBase are appreciated.

Argosy Kansas City page:

http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/M_ArgK.htm

<a href="http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/M_ArgK.htm">
http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/M_ArgK.htm</a>

vpFREE Administrator

···

On 8 Dec 2003 at 14:44, CARLOS LEBRON wrote:

The new casino opens this Thursday, and I'll provide a
report of what I find on this forum. If anyone has
any specific questions they want answered about the
new casino, let me know ASAP.

#8

No honest machine would be set that way. So you will be safe at any Vegas casino.

FYI : 9/6 JB with a progressive on the Royal are at the Westward Ho and at Sams Town, both in Las Vegas.

Regards
A.P.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: gilbert_616
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 3:53 PM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Same machine, same Pay Schedule, program not the same -- true or false?

  Thanks Albert!

  So there is no such thing as 1 vp machine set to have quads to occur
  every 400 draws (on JoB) and another machine set to have quads occur
  quads every 420 draws, for example. In short, nothing like just
  tweaking a number/variable in the program to alter the frequency of
  the winning hands.

  Next time, the choice is clear for me. Play the Progressives if
  their pay schedules are the same as the non-progressives...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#9

....... Usually, the progressives are short on at least one hand --

which is how they feed the progressive; it could be the Full House,
or the Flush, (or both), or even one of the lower lines, such as
paying just 1 betting-unit for 2-pair in JoB, or possibly requiring
Kings or Better instead of Jacks or Better, and that sort of thing.

And strangely enough, sometimes you'll see just the opposite. At one
time the Magic in Biloxi, MS had a bank of very good dollar JOB
progressives. They were full pay 9/6 machines, with the addition of
a progressive meter on the Royal, St. Flush, and Quads. In the same
casino you could find a stand alone NON-progressive dollar JOB
machine with something horrible like a 7/5 pay table. And as you
might guess, people would play the 7/5 non-progressive machine even
when there were plenty of seats at the progressive bank. Never
underestimate the ignorance of the average casino patron!

EE

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:

#10

eecounter wrote:

snip

... At one
time the Magic in Biloxi, MS had a bank of very good dollar JOB
progressives. They were full pay 9/6 machines, with the addition of
a progressive meter on the Royal, St. Flush, and Quads. In the same
casino you could find a stand alone NON-progressive dollar JOB
machine with something horrible like a 7/5 pay table. And as you
might guess, people would play the 7/5 non-progressive machine even
when there were plenty of seats at the progressive bank. ...

snip

I see things almost that bad all the time; i.e., a bank of JoB 9/6 and right next to it a bank of JoB 8/5 ... and you guessed it: there are plenty of folks playing the 8/5 even though there are empty seats at the 9/6 machines. Clearly those folks don't have a clue..
There are two ways of looking at them: they help keep the profits up for the casinos which I presume indirectly helps advantage players, but if there are too many folks willing to play negative machines, there is a disincentive for the casinos to carry positive machines. So I don't know whether they help or hurt the rest of us (probably help, because if too many played expertly, we'd see the demise of advantage VP ... which is no doubt the reason why things have been going downhill lately.

Bill Velek