vpFREE2 Forums

Sachem/Wolf ? free play amount?

#1

I have been Sagamore for 3 or 4 years - last year I was getting $100 in
free play most of the time. This year it dropped down to $30 and they cut
out my host....the past couple of months it's back to $50 free play most of
the time, but I notice the "gifts" are not as nice as they used to be. Last
year I had an offer for Omaha Steaks that was worth $150, this year I got
an offer for Legal Seafood that was worth $50. Not sure what's driving this
- play is about the same, but I did have several W2G's last fall.

Sandy

In a message dated 7/12/2011 7:15:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
hohohondo@yahoo.com writes:

I have been Sachem for over 2 years, and I was often getting $100 free
play or sometimes $200. That was when I was a BIG loser. Since the start of
this year, I have, and I can't believe it myself, close to $100,000 in
taxables. My free play offers have been $30 at a time. I just last week got
one for $50 but uh-oh, there's another royal!
Are they using money-in or money-out to determine offers?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Coin in is no longer king. Profitability is. The more you lose the more you get. The more you win the less you get. Been Sachem wolf for more than five years and it is no longer worth the risk IMHO
Mel

···

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, SAbramo102@... wrote:

I have been Sagamore for 3 or 4 years - last year I was getting $100 in
free play most of the time. This year it dropped down to $30 and they cut
out my host....the past couple of months it's back to $50 free play most of
the time, but I notice the "gifts" are not as nice as they used to be. Last
year I had an offer for Omaha Steaks that was worth $150, this year I got
an offer for Legal Seafood that was worth $50. Not sure what's driving this
- play is about the same, but I did have several W2G's last fall.

Sandy

In a message dated 7/12/2011 7:15:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
hohohondo@... writes:

I have been Sachem for over 2 years, and I was often getting $100 free
play or sometimes $200. That was when I was a BIG loser. Since the start of
this year, I have, and I can't believe it myself, close to $100,000 in
taxables. My free play offers have been $30 at a time. I just last week got
one for $50 but uh-oh, there's another royal!
Are they using money-in or money-out to determine offers?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3

I agree. It's looking pretty damn grim. FWIW, sachem here> 10 years or so.

1. Coin-in is no longer king. TRUE.
I'ts now trumped by ADT (times some factor) - COST (to casino)
[Which is industry standard, btw]
ADT is now WAY lower then before due to new software's "new rules".
That's the real problem.

2. The more you lose the more you get. TRUE.
Lose enough, and it won't matter if you are not even a sagamore. You will get a lot. Win (enough) and you will likely get less then what you should have (see above equation).

3. Not worth the risk. TRUE.
The situation has been shifting for some time, and overall EV vs risk has been dropping.
General experience / treatment (IMO) at MS has declined too.
And better opportunites may exist elsewhere...

Vote with your wallets/feet/voices.
Take your play elsewhere... and let the casino + your host know why you are doing so.

···

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@...> wrote:

Coin in is no longer king. Profitability is. The more you lose the more you get. The more you win the less you get. Been Sachem wolf for more than five years and it is no longer worth the risk IMHO
Mel

#4

I dont think that they base offers on how much you lose .My husband lost 10x what I lost this year and I still get better offers than he does .It is true that they cut them down though.

···

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "cdfsrule" <cdfsrule@...> wrote:

I agree. It's looking pretty damn grim. FWIW, sachem here> 10 years or so.

1. Coin-in is no longer king. TRUE.
I'ts now trumped by ADT (times some factor) - COST (to casino)
[Which is industry standard, btw]
ADT is now WAY lower then before due to new software's "new rules".
That's the real problem.

2. The more you lose the more you get. TRUE.
Lose enough, and it won't matter if you are not even a sagamore. You will get a lot. Win (enough) and you will likely get less then what you should have (see above equation).

3. Not worth the risk. TRUE.
The situation has been shifting for some time, and overall EV vs risk has been dropping.
General experience / treatment (IMO) at MS has declined too.
And better opportunites may exist elsewhere...

Vote with your wallets/feet/voices.
Take your play elsewhere... and let the casino + your host know why you are doing so.

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
>
> Coin in is no longer king. Profitability is. The more you lose the more you get. The more you win the less you get. Been Sachem wolf for more than five years and it is no longer worth the risk IMHO
> Mel
>

#5

They look at both Husband and wife together. If one is up and the other is down, they look at profitablity of the couple not just the individual. Losses are now and going foward a major criteria.

Mel

···

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "s4l4" <s4l4@...> wrote:

I dont think that they base offers on how much you lose .My husband lost 10x what I lost this year and I still get better offers than he does .It is true that they cut them down though.

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "cdfsrule" <cdfsrule@> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I agree. It's looking pretty damn grim. FWIW, sachem here> 10 years or so.
>
> 1. Coin-in is no longer king. TRUE.
> I'ts now trumped by ADT (times some factor) - COST (to casino)
> [Which is industry standard, btw]
> ADT is now WAY lower then before due to new software's "new rules".
> That's the real problem.
>
> 2. The more you lose the more you get. TRUE.
> Lose enough, and it won't matter if you are not even a sagamore. You will get a lot. Win (enough) and you will likely get less then what you should have (see above equation).
>
> 3. Not worth the risk. TRUE.
> The situation has been shifting for some time, and overall EV vs risk has been dropping.
> General experience / treatment (IMO) at MS has declined too.
> And better opportunites may exist elsewhere...
>
> Vote with your wallets/feet/voices.
> Take your play elsewhere... and let the casino + your host know why you are doing so.
>
>
> --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
> >
> > Coin in is no longer king. Profitability is. The more you lose the more you get. The more you win the less you get. Been Sachem wolf for more than five years and it is no longer worth the risk IMHO
> > Mel
> >
>

#6

The Average Daily Theoretical reminds me of the las vegas hilton changes ~6 years ago. The ADT of 9/6 JB was reduced from ~3% down to ~.3 percent. A lot of their regulars moved on to other casinos (something not easy to do here in New England).

The ADT remained at ~3 percent for several games with higher EV.
The JB players that could adjust were o.k. but most moved on.

I think Hilton's new mgmt understood E.V. of 9/6 JB but little else.

On the other hand, if MS software is based on daily profitability one could adjust by playing very high variance games such as FP Loose Deuces (if they existed :-))

···

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "s4l4" <s4l4@> wrote:
>They look at both Husband and wife together. If one is up and the other is down, they look at profitablity of the couple not just the individual. Losses are now and going foward a major criteria.
Mel
> I dont think that they base offers on how much you lose .My husband lost 10x what I lost this year and I still get better offers than he does .It is true that they cut them down though.
>
> --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "cdfsrule" <cdfsrule@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree. It's looking pretty damn grim. FWIW, sachem here> 10 years or so.
> >
> > 1. Coin-in is no longer king. TRUE.
> > I'ts now trumped by ADT (times some factor) - COST (to casino)
> > [Which is industry standard, btw]
> > ADT is now WAY lower then before due to new software's "new rules".
> > That's the real problem.
> >
> > 2. The more you lose the more you get. TRUE.
> > Lose enough, and it won't matter if you are not even a sagamore. You will get a lot. Win (enough) and you will likely get less then what you should have (see above equation).
> >
> > 3. Not worth the risk. TRUE.
> > The situation has been shifting for some time, and overall EV vs risk has been dropping.
> > General experience / treatment (IMO) at MS has declined too.
> > And better opportunites may exist elsewhere...
> >
> > Vote with your wallets/feet/voices.
> > Take your play elsewhere... and let the casino + your host know why you are doing so.
> >
> >
> > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Coin in is no longer king. Profitability is. The more you lose the more you get. The more you win the less you get. Been Sachem wolf for more than five years and it is no longer worth the risk IMHO
> > > Mel
> > >
> >
>

#7

Most of the vp games have a low adt except for maybe the 96% ev games which are probably higher but that is not what they are looking at. Actual win loss as opposed to theoretical loss has become more important. I played 9-6 ddb which is as volatile as it gets and it doesn't equate to a much different adt than JOB. As for the software issue, this has been going on since the last week in march and still hasn't been resovled. If it isn't doing what they want, they should have tested it before full implimentation. Only time will tell if they correct this disaster.
Mel

···

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <haaljo@...> wrote:

The Average Daily Theoretical reminds me of the las vegas hilton changes ~6 years ago. The ADT of 9/6 JB was reduced from ~3% down to ~.3 percent. A lot of their regulars moved on to other casinos (something not easy to do here in New England).

The ADT remained at ~3 percent for several games with higher EV.
The JB players that could adjust were o.k. but most moved on.

I think Hilton's new mgmt understood E.V. of 9/6 JB but little else.

On the other hand, if MS software is based on daily profitability one could adjust by playing very high variance games such as FP Loose Deuces (if they existed :-))

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "s4l4" <s4l4@> wrote:
> >They look at both Husband and wife together. If one is up and the other is down, they look at profitablity of the couple not just the individual. Losses are now and going foward a major criteria.
> Mel
> > I dont think that they base offers on how much you lose .My husband lost 10x what I lost this year and I still get better offers than he does .It is true that they cut them down though.
> >
> > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "cdfsrule" <cdfsrule@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree. It's looking pretty damn grim. FWIW, sachem here> 10 years or so.
> > >
> > > 1. Coin-in is no longer king. TRUE.
> > > I'ts now trumped by ADT (times some factor) - COST (to casino)
> > > [Which is industry standard, btw]
> > > ADT is now WAY lower then before due to new software's "new rules".
> > > That's the real problem.
> > >
> > > 2. The more you lose the more you get. TRUE.
> > > Lose enough, and it won't matter if you are not even a sagamore. You will get a lot. Win (enough) and you will likely get less then what you should have (see above equation).
> > >
> > > 3. Not worth the risk. TRUE.
> > > The situation has been shifting for some time, and overall EV vs risk has been dropping.
> > > General experience / treatment (IMO) at MS has declined too.
> > > And better opportunites may exist elsewhere...
> > >
> > > Vote with your wallets/feet/voices.
> > > Take your play elsewhere... and let the casino + your host know why you are doing so.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Coin in is no longer king. Profitability is. The more you lose the more you get. The more you win the less you get. Been Sachem wolf for more than five years and it is no longer worth the risk IMHO
> > > > Mel
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

#8

The motherboard glossary has Average Daily Worth (ADW) which may be the correct definition of what MS is using?
This may be an important and profound change from previous casion software. Maybe the VP Administrator could bring this to the attention of the motherboard as they do monitor the regional boards.

I recollect discussion of software to flag gamblers using correct strategy et al but software to base offers on sctual gains/losses is a disruptive change; may not be a good business plan; and there can be workarounds to create an advantage situation. 9/6 DDB may not have a high enough variance. May have to be multistrike (for Mohegan). But if the theo for 9/6 DDB and 9/6 JB is about the same - well that is just a stupid mgmt decision.

I previously mentioned Loose Deuces because people used to get below radar with so many losing sessions; but when they won they won big.

And then there's the need to have IT consultants/staff to maintain leading edge software - which isn't cheap and mgmt is loathe to do.
Might be happening at MS right now :slight_smile:

···

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@...> wrote:

Most of the vp games have a low adt except for maybe the 96% ev games which are probably higher but that is not what they are looking at. Actual win loss as opposed to theoretical loss has become more important. I played 9-6 ddb which is as volatile as it gets and it doesn't equate to a much different adt than JOB. As for the software issue, this has been going on since the last week in march and still hasn't been resovled. If it isn't doing what they want, they should have tested it before full implimentation. Only time will tell if they correct this disaster.
Mel

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <haaljo@> wrote:
>
> The Average Daily Theoretical reminds me of the las vegas hilton changes ~6 years ago. The ADT of 9/6 JB was reduced from ~3% down to ~.3 percent. A lot of their regulars moved on to other casinos (something not easy to do here in New England).
>
> The ADT remained at ~3 percent for several games with higher EV.
> The JB players that could adjust were o.k. but most moved on.
>
> I think Hilton's new mgmt understood E.V. of 9/6 JB but little else.
>
> On the other hand, if MS software is based on daily profitability one could adjust by playing very high variance games such as FP Loose Deuces (if they existed :-))
>
> --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "s4l4" <s4l4@> wrote:
> > >They look at both Husband and wife together. If one is up and the other is down, they look at profitablity of the couple not just the individual. Losses are now and going foward a major criteria.
> > Mel
> > > I dont think that they base offers on how much you lose .My husband lost 10x what I lost this year and I still get better offers than he does .It is true that they cut them down though.
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "cdfsrule" <cdfsrule@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I agree. It's looking pretty damn grim. FWIW, sachem here> 10 years or so.
> > > >
> > > > 1. Coin-in is no longer king. TRUE.
> > > > I'ts now trumped by ADT (times some factor) - COST (to casino)
> > > > [Which is industry standard, btw]
> > > > ADT is now WAY lower then before due to new software's "new rules".
> > > > That's the real problem.
> > > >
> > > > 2. The more you lose the more you get. TRUE.
> > > > Lose enough, and it won't matter if you are not even a sagamore. You will get a lot. Win (enough) and you will likely get less then what you should have (see above equation).
> > > >
> > > > 3. Not worth the risk. TRUE.
> > > > The situation has been shifting for some time, and overall EV vs risk has been dropping.
> > > > General experience / treatment (IMO) at MS has declined too.
> > > > And better opportunites may exist elsewhere...
> > > >
> > > > Vote with your wallets/feet/voices.
> > > > Take your play elsewhere... and let the casino + your host know why you are doing so.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Coin in is no longer king. Profitability is. The more you lose the more you get. The more you win the less you get. Been Sachem wolf for more than five years and it is no longer worth the risk IMHO
> > > > > Mel
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

#9

try adl-actual daily loss

···

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <haaljo@...> wrote:

The motherboard glossary has Average Daily Worth (ADW) which may be the correct definition of what MS is using?
This may be an important and profound change from previous casion software. Maybe the VP Administrator could bring this to the attention of the motherboard as they do monitor the regional boards.

I recollect discussion of software to flag gamblers using correct strategy et al but software to base offers on sctual gains/losses is a disruptive change; may not be a good business plan; and there can be workarounds to create an advantage situation. 9/6 DDB may not have a high enough variance. May have to be multistrike (for Mohegan). But if the theo for 9/6 DDB and 9/6 JB is about the same - well that is just a stupid mgmt decision.

I previously mentioned Loose Deuces because people used to get below radar with so many losing sessions; but when they won they won big.

And then there's the need to have IT consultants/staff to maintain leading edge software - which isn't cheap and mgmt is loathe to do.
Might be happening at MS right now :slight_smile:

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
>
> Most of the vp games have a low adt except for maybe the 96% ev games which are probably higher but that is not what they are looking at. Actual win loss as opposed to theoretical loss has become more important. I played 9-6 ddb which is as volatile as it gets and it doesn't equate to a much different adt than JOB. As for the software issue, this has been going on since the last week in march and still hasn't been resovled. If it isn't doing what they want, they should have tested it before full implimentation. Only time will tell if they correct this disaster.
> Mel
>
> --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <haaljo@> wrote:
> >
> > The Average Daily Theoretical reminds me of the las vegas hilton changes ~6 years ago. The ADT of 9/6 JB was reduced from ~3% down to ~.3 percent. A lot of their regulars moved on to other casinos (something not easy to do here in New England).
> >
> > The ADT remained at ~3 percent for several games with higher EV.
> > The JB players that could adjust were o.k. but most moved on.
> >
> > I think Hilton's new mgmt understood E.V. of 9/6 JB but little else.
> >
> > On the other hand, if MS software is based on daily profitability one could adjust by playing very high variance games such as FP Loose Deuces (if they existed :-))
> >
> > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "s4l4" <s4l4@> wrote:
> > > >They look at both Husband and wife together. If one is up and the other is down, they look at profitablity of the couple not just the individual. Losses are now and going foward a major criteria.
> > > Mel
> > > > I dont think that they base offers on how much you lose .My husband lost 10x what I lost this year and I still get better offers than he does .It is true that they cut them down though.
> > > >
> > > > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "cdfsrule" <cdfsrule@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree. It's looking pretty damn grim. FWIW, sachem here> 10 years or so.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Coin-in is no longer king. TRUE.
> > > > > I'ts now trumped by ADT (times some factor) - COST (to casino)
> > > > > [Which is industry standard, btw]
> > > > > ADT is now WAY lower then before due to new software's "new rules".
> > > > > That's the real problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. The more you lose the more you get. TRUE.
> > > > > Lose enough, and it won't matter if you are not even a sagamore. You will get a lot. Win (enough) and you will likely get less then what you should have (see above equation).
> > > > >
> > > > > 3. Not worth the risk. TRUE.
> > > > > The situation has been shifting for some time, and overall EV vs risk has been dropping.
> > > > > General experience / treatment (IMO) at MS has declined too.
> > > > > And better opportunites may exist elsewhere...
> > > > >
> > > > > Vote with your wallets/feet/voices.
> > > > > Take your play elsewhere... and let the casino + your host know why you are doing so.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Coin in is no longer king. Profitability is. The more you lose the more you get. The more you win the less you get. Been Sachem wolf for more than five years and it is no longer worth the risk IMHO
> > > > > > Mel
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

#10

I've been reading this thread but since it doesn't affect me directly,
I haven't kept track of all the details.

If someone sends me a summary, I'll post it on vpFREE, or they
can post it there themselves.

vpFREE Administrator

···

On 15 Jul 2011 at 4:10, Dave wrote:

The motherboard glossary has Average Daily Worth (ADW) which
may be the correct definition of what MS is using? This may be an
important and profound change from previous casion software.
Maybe the VP Administrator could bring this to the attention of
the motherboard as they do monitor the regional boards.

#11

Game var doesn't effect Theo.
Theo (over time) ends up at the actual game return (or machine return in some casinos, etc)
Casino "comp rate" is some factor times theo, like maybe 15%
Subtract your "cost" (spend), and if the result is negative, you won't get treated well.

FWIW, it's still somtimes good to play high var games-- if you can take the swings-- becuase if losses mean better comps (in excess of above theo formula) you will do better (on average) on high var games...

The short of it is that when a casino puts in a new game/machine, manufacturer (usually) recommend the theo. As time goes on, theo generally adjusts to the actual hold. If something anomalous happens in the short term (like actual hold is WAY off from original theo), casino will often just yank the game, ratther then wait it out.

It used to be that you would very commonly find a single theo for an entire machine-- that tended to be dominated by the worst game on it. That was a good situation for players who knew what was going on-- and they could get way over comped. But that a rare situation now.

The issue now is not really game theo changes, but changes in how your trip data is computed, and a change in focus from coin-in related stuff to coin-out related.

The later coin-stuff is not really that new, btw, as MS has been moving in that direction for some time. The reason is that they had to do something for the people who come in and lose like $10K or $30K VERY quickly with little play-- and they wanted that something to be a matter of policy (read: computer automation) rather then a host's personal whims and gamblers gumption (read: the gambler had to complain to someone who both cared and could actually do something, etc)...

Ironically,by addressing the complaints of only a few big losers, they created an army of newly unsatisfied customers... (add that to all the people who are complaining about the trip stuff-- you are complaining, right? -- and that's a lot of unhappy players). I guess we will be able to devine if it was all worth it for them revenue-wise, by the way they adjust (or don't adjust) their new policies.

···

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@...> wrote:

try adl-actual daily loss

Love it!

#12

Used to be they couldn't distinguish between games on machines but that changed about 1-2 years ago with a software upgrade and now it is based on the hold of each game once it is played enough. These changes occured in Vegas years ago and MS is doing it also. If they correct the software not to trip everything we might have a chance. I have been complaining to management and my host and they keep saying they will correct the problem but they have been going back and forth with the software company about how to correct this. We shall see how this plays out when the next qualifying period comes. If they don't do something many players will see a severe downgrade in their status including my wife and I
Mel

···

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "cdfsrule" <cdfsrule@...> wrote:

Game var doesn't effect Theo.
Theo (over time) ends up at the actual game return (or machine return in some casinos, etc)
Casino "comp rate" is some factor times theo, like maybe 15%
Subtract your "cost" (spend), and if the result is negative, you won't get treated well.

FWIW, it's still somtimes good to play high var games-- if you can take the swings-- becuase if losses mean better comps (in excess of above theo formula) you will do better (on average) on high var games...

The short of it is that when a casino puts in a new game/machine, manufacturer (usually) recommend the theo. As time goes on, theo generally adjusts to the actual hold. If something anomalous happens in the short term (like actual hold is WAY off from original theo), casino will often just yank the game, ratther then wait it out.

It used to be that you would very commonly find a single theo for an entire machine-- that tended to be dominated by the worst game on it. That was a good situation for players who knew what was going on-- and they could get way over comped. But that a rare situation now.

The issue now is not really game theo changes, but changes in how your trip data is computed, and a change in focus from coin-in related stuff to coin-out related.

The later coin-stuff is not really that new, btw, as MS has been moving in that direction for some time. The reason is that they had to do something for the people who come in and lose like $10K or $30K VERY quickly with little play-- and they wanted that something to be a matter of policy (read: computer automation) rather then a host's personal whims and gamblers gumption (read: the gambler had to complain to someone who both cared and could actually do something, etc)...

Ironically,by addressing the complaints of only a few big losers, they created an army of newly unsatisfied customers... (add that to all the people who are complaining about the trip stuff-- you are complaining, right? -- and that's a lot of unhappy players). I guess we will be able to devine if it was all worth it for them revenue-wise, by the way they adjust (or don't adjust) their new policies.

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
>
> try adl-actual daily loss
>

Love it!

#13

The work-around on the software tripping everything is to just not use card unless your going to do serious gambling that day.

The giant reduction of theo on all VP; I got no workaround but sometimes mistakes are made or theo is improved for one reason or another and then forgotten. We do put $1K through a slot machine if we haven't taken a beating and when casino offers a fair VP gamble.

This to me is a question of softwre that accurately tracks "player value" in terms of "average daly loss" and is it a big Fail? Happened before; about 10 years ago as I remember at Edgewater in Laughlin.

And so I have gone down the internet well on land-based casino software. Trying to determine recent innovations. Lot of info seems to be behind security wall.

···

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@...> wrote:

Used to be they couldn't distinguish between games on machines but that changed about 1-2 years ago with a software upgrade and now it is based on the hold of each game once it is played enough. These changes occured in Vegas years ago and MS is doing it also. If they correct the software not to trip everything we might have a chance. I have been complaining to management and my host and they keep saying they will correct the problem but they have been going back and forth with the software company about how to correct this. We shall see how this plays out when the next qualifying period comes. If they don't do something many players will see a severe downgrade in their status including my wife and I
Mel

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "cdfsrule" <cdfsrule@> wrote:
>
> Game var doesn't effect Theo.
> Theo (over time) ends up at the actual game return (or machine return in some casinos, etc)
> Casino "comp rate" is some factor times theo, like maybe 15%
> Subtract your "cost" (spend), and if the result is negative, you won't get treated well.
>
> FWIW, it's still somtimes good to play high var games-- if you can take the swings-- becuase if losses mean better comps (in excess of above theo formula) you will do better (on average) on high var games...
>
> The short of it is that when a casino puts in a new game/machine, manufacturer (usually) recommend the theo. As time goes on, theo generally adjusts to the actual hold. If something anomalous happens in the short term (like actual hold is WAY off from original theo), casino will often just yank the game, ratther then wait it out.
>
> It used to be that you would very commonly find a single theo for an entire machine-- that tended to be dominated by the worst game on it. That was a good situation for players who knew what was going on-- and they could get way over comped. But that a rare situation now.
>
> The issue now is not really game theo changes, but changes in how your trip data is computed, and a change in focus from coin-in related stuff to coin-out related.
>
> The later coin-stuff is not really that new, btw, as MS has been moving in that direction for some time. The reason is that they had to do something for the people who come in and lose like $10K or $30K VERY quickly with little play-- and they wanted that something to be a matter of policy (read: computer automation) rather then a host's personal whims and gamblers gumption (read: the gambler had to complain to someone who both cared and could actually do something, etc)...
>
> Ironically,by addressing the complaints of only a few big losers, they created an army of newly unsatisfied customers... (add that to all the people who are complaining about the trip stuff-- you are complaining, right? -- and that's a lot of unhappy players). I guess we will be able to devine if it was all worth it for them revenue-wise, by the way they adjust (or don't adjust) their new policies.
>
>
> --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
> >
> > try adl-actual daily loss
> >
>
>
> Love it!
>

#14

Dave,
Your first statement is correct. But that means even if you play at a high level, everytime you get a promo like the legal seafood giveaway, swipe for points or anything like that you have to play or have your theo destroyed. I for one don't always have the time or inclination to play on their schedule. What this means is even if you play a lot you can't really take advantage of what they are willing to give you. I just won't play that game with them. Hopefully it will be corrected but as time goes by I get more doubtful. Hope I am wrong
Mel

···

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <haaljo@...> wrote:

The work-around on the software tripping everything is to just not use card unless your going to do serious gambling that day.

The giant reduction of theo on all VP; I got no workaround but sometimes mistakes are made or theo is improved for one reason or another and then forgotten. We do put $1K through a slot machine if we haven't taken a beating and when casino offers a fair VP gamble.

This to me is a question of softwre that accurately tracks "player value" in terms of "average daly loss" and is it a big Fail? Happened before; about 10 years ago as I remember at Edgewater in Laughlin.

And so I have gone down the internet well on land-based casino software. Trying to determine recent innovations. Lot of info seems to be behind security wall.

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
>
> Used to be they couldn't distinguish between games on machines but that changed about 1-2 years ago with a software upgrade and now it is based on the hold of each game once it is played enough. These changes occured in Vegas years ago and MS is doing it also. If they correct the software not to trip everything we might have a chance. I have been complaining to management and my host and they keep saying they will correct the problem but they have been going back and forth with the software company about how to correct this. We shall see how this plays out when the next qualifying period comes. If they don't do something many players will see a severe downgrade in their status including my wife and I
> Mel
>
> --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "cdfsrule" <cdfsrule@> wrote:
> >
> > Game var doesn't effect Theo.
> > Theo (over time) ends up at the actual game return (or machine return in some casinos, etc)
> > Casino "comp rate" is some factor times theo, like maybe 15%
> > Subtract your "cost" (spend), and if the result is negative, you won't get treated well.
> >
> > FWIW, it's still somtimes good to play high var games-- if you can take the swings-- becuase if losses mean better comps (in excess of above theo formula) you will do better (on average) on high var games...
> >
> > The short of it is that when a casino puts in a new game/machine, manufacturer (usually) recommend the theo. As time goes on, theo generally adjusts to the actual hold. If something anomalous happens in the short term (like actual hold is WAY off from original theo), casino will often just yank the game, ratther then wait it out.
> >
> > It used to be that you would very commonly find a single theo for an entire machine-- that tended to be dominated by the worst game on it. That was a good situation for players who knew what was going on-- and they could get way over comped. But that a rare situation now.
> >
> > The issue now is not really game theo changes, but changes in how your trip data is computed, and a change in focus from coin-in related stuff to coin-out related.
> >
> > The later coin-stuff is not really that new, btw, as MS has been moving in that direction for some time. The reason is that they had to do something for the people who come in and lose like $10K or $30K VERY quickly with little play-- and they wanted that something to be a matter of policy (read: computer automation) rather then a host's personal whims and gamblers gumption (read: the gambler had to complain to someone who both cared and could actually do something, etc)...
> >
> > Ironically,by addressing the complaints of only a few big losers, they created an army of newly unsatisfied customers... (add that to all the people who are complaining about the trip stuff-- you are complaining, right? -- and that's a lot of unhappy players). I guess we will be able to devine if it was all worth it for them revenue-wise, by the way they adjust (or don't adjust) their new policies.
> >
> >
> > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
> > >
> > > try adl-actual daily loss
> > >
> >
> >
> > Love it!
> >
>

#15

Make sure you don't use the lounge, use your parking card, buy anything with points, get a room or comped show, pick up a promo, use fsp, or swipe for points. What's the point of going then if you are can't do those things if you are not playing heavy?? Four us it is a round trip of 3 1/2 hrs just to play a little with nothing else.

···

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <haaljo@...> wrote:

The work-around on the software tripping everything is to just not use card unless your going to do serious gambling that day.

The giant reduction of theo on all VP; I got no workaround but sometimes mistakes are made or theo is improved for one reason or another and then forgotten. We do put $1K through a slot machine if we haven't taken a beating and when casino offers a fair VP gamble.

This to me is a question of softwre that accurately tracks "player value" in terms of "average daly loss" and is it a big Fail? Happened before; about 10 years ago as I remember at Edgewater in Laughlin.

And so I have gone down the internet well on land-based casino software. Trying to determine recent innovations. Lot of info seems to be behind security wall.

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
>
> Used to be they couldn't distinguish between games on machines but that changed about 1-2 years ago with a software upgrade and now it is based on the hold of each game once it is played enough. These changes occured in Vegas years ago and MS is doing it also. If they correct the software not to trip everything we might have a chance. I have been complaining to management and my host and they keep saying they will correct the problem but they have been going back and forth with the software company about how to correct this. We shall see how this plays out when the next qualifying period comes. If they don't do something many players will see a severe downgrade in their status including my wife and I
> Mel
>
> --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "cdfsrule" <cdfsrule@> wrote:
> >
> > Game var doesn't effect Theo.
> > Theo (over time) ends up at the actual game return (or machine return in some casinos, etc)
> > Casino "comp rate" is some factor times theo, like maybe 15%
> > Subtract your "cost" (spend), and if the result is negative, you won't get treated well.
> >
> > FWIW, it's still somtimes good to play high var games-- if you can take the swings-- becuase if losses mean better comps (in excess of above theo formula) you will do better (on average) on high var games...
> >
> > The short of it is that when a casino puts in a new game/machine, manufacturer (usually) recommend the theo. As time goes on, theo generally adjusts to the actual hold. If something anomalous happens in the short term (like actual hold is WAY off from original theo), casino will often just yank the game, ratther then wait it out.
> >
> > It used to be that you would very commonly find a single theo for an entire machine-- that tended to be dominated by the worst game on it. That was a good situation for players who knew what was going on-- and they could get way over comped. But that a rare situation now.
> >
> > The issue now is not really game theo changes, but changes in how your trip data is computed, and a change in focus from coin-in related stuff to coin-out related.
> >
> > The later coin-stuff is not really that new, btw, as MS has been moving in that direction for some time. The reason is that they had to do something for the people who come in and lose like $10K or $30K VERY quickly with little play-- and they wanted that something to be a matter of policy (read: computer automation) rather then a host's personal whims and gamblers gumption (read: the gambler had to complain to someone who both cared and could actually do something, etc)...
> >
> > Ironically,by addressing the complaints of only a few big losers, they created an army of newly unsatisfied customers... (add that to all the people who are complaining about the trip stuff-- you are complaining, right? -- and that's a lot of unhappy players). I guess we will be able to devine if it was all worth it for them revenue-wise, by the way they adjust (or don't adjust) their new policies.
> >
> >
> > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
> > >
> > > try adl-actual daily loss
> > >
> >
> >
> > Love it!
> >
>

#16

That's the way it is at the Las Vegas Hilton. In return, they send $500 bounceback for $30K action/day for two days. The day we leave, don't even buy a cup of coffee. Buy it the day b4 and drink it cold. Usually around sunrise on our way to Aquarius in Laughlin to pick up $300 bounceback. Other stops include Main Street Staton and Green Valley Ranch. Harrah's properties were the first to make this a big deal as I recollect.

But the new software may be capable of a lot more; or may be rife with weaknesses; or too complicated to maintain; or just a Fail.

Google land-based casino software. One company highlights their software permanently tracking every "interaction" a player has with casino.
So be nice:-)

···

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@...> wrote:

Make sure you don't use the lounge, use your parking card, buy anything with points, get a room or comped show, pick up a promo, use fsp, or swipe for points. What's the point of going then if you are can't do those things if you are not playing heavy?? Four us it is a round trip of 3 1/2 hrs just to play a little with nothing else.

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <haaljo@> wrote:
>
> The work-around on the software tripping everything is to just not use card unless your going to do serious gambling that day.
>
> The giant reduction of theo on all VP; I got no workaround but sometimes mistakes are made or theo is improved for one reason or another and then forgotten. We do put $1K through a slot machine if we haven't taken a beating and when casino offers a fair VP gamble.
>
> This to me is a question of softwre that accurately tracks "player value" in terms of "average daly loss" and is it a big Fail? Happened before; about 10 years ago as I remember at Edgewater in Laughlin.
>
> And so I have gone down the internet well on land-based casino software. Trying to determine recent innovations. Lot of info seems to be behind security wall.
>
> --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
> >
> > Used to be they couldn't distinguish between games on machines but that changed about 1-2 years ago with a software upgrade and now it is based on the hold of each game once it is played enough. These changes occured in Vegas years ago and MS is doing it also. If they correct the software not to trip everything we might have a chance. I have been complaining to management and my host and they keep saying they will correct the problem but they have been going back and forth with the software company about how to correct this. We shall see how this plays out when the next qualifying period comes. If they don't do something many players will see a severe downgrade in their status including my wife and I
> > Mel
> >
> > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "cdfsrule" <cdfsrule@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Game var doesn't effect Theo.
> > > Theo (over time) ends up at the actual game return (or machine return in some casinos, etc)
> > > Casino "comp rate" is some factor times theo, like maybe 15%
> > > Subtract your "cost" (spend), and if the result is negative, you won't get treated well.
> > >
> > > FWIW, it's still somtimes good to play high var games-- if you can take the swings-- becuase if losses mean better comps (in excess of above theo formula) you will do better (on average) on high var games...
> > >
> > > The short of it is that when a casino puts in a new game/machine, manufacturer (usually) recommend the theo. As time goes on, theo generally adjusts to the actual hold. If something anomalous happens in the short term (like actual hold is WAY off from original theo), casino will often just yank the game, ratther then wait it out.
> > >
> > > It used to be that you would very commonly find a single theo for an entire machine-- that tended to be dominated by the worst game on it. That was a good situation for players who knew what was going on-- and they could get way over comped. But that a rare situation now.
> > >
> > > The issue now is not really game theo changes, but changes in how your trip data is computed, and a change in focus from coin-in related stuff to coin-out related.
> > >
> > > The later coin-stuff is not really that new, btw, as MS has been moving in that direction for some time. The reason is that they had to do something for the people who come in and lose like $10K or $30K VERY quickly with little play-- and they wanted that something to be a matter of policy (read: computer automation) rather then a host's personal whims and gamblers gumption (read: the gambler had to complain to someone who both cared and could actually do something, etc)...
> > >
> > > Ironically,by addressing the complaints of only a few big losers, they created an army of newly unsatisfied customers... (add that to all the people who are complaining about the trip stuff-- you are complaining, right? -- and that's a lot of unhappy players). I guess we will be able to devine if it was all worth it for them revenue-wise, by the way they adjust (or don't adjust) their new policies.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > try adl-actual daily loss
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Love it!
> > >
> >
>

#17

I'm going to play what I want, when I want. The only concession I made was many
years ago, and that is not to play (on my card, at least) on getaway day from
any casino.

MS has consistently cut down, first the theo, which pared down greatly the ranks
of the Sachem. Then, the free slot play has been declining steadily, as have the
food offers and gift offers. Even the entertainment is now for Sagamores:
"SELECTED" arena events.

But they've locked themselves into a declining spiral as well. A player must
decide what level he is comfortable playing for, and give them the number of
points needed to achieve that level, 800 for Wolf or 1600 for Sagamore. But any
play above that is basically futile. The days of racking up 3200, 4800 or more
points as a Sagamore are gone. Unless you drop $30K, you're not making Sachem as
a $1 player, visiting once or twice a month.

So you can head over to Foxwoods with that extra play, make Gold level, and get
the bennies from both places.

Certainly the game is rigged. Don’t let that stop you; if you don’t bet, you
can’t win. -Lazarus Long

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice,
there is. -Yogi Berra
There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation
to cope with a statistical universe. -Robert Heinlein

···

________________________________
From: Dave <haaljo@yahoo.com>
To: vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, July 17, 2011 5:38:03 PM
Subject: [vpFREE_NewEngland] Re: Sachem/Wolf ? free play amount?

That's the way it is at the Las Vegas Hilton. In return, they send $500
bounceback for $30K action/day for two days. The day we leave, don't even buy a
cup of coffee. Buy it the day b4 and drink it cold. Usually around sunrise on
our way to Aquarius in Laughlin to pick up $300 bounceback. Other stops include
Main Street Staton and Green Valley Ranch. Harrah's properties were the first to
make this a big deal as I recollect.

But the new software may be capable of a lot more; or may be rife with
weaknesses; or too complicated to maintain; or just a Fail.

Google land-based casino software. One company highlights their software
permanently tracking every "interaction" a player has with casino.
So be nice:-)

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@...> wrote:

Make sure you don't use the lounge, use your parking card, buy anything with
points, get a room or comped show, pick up a promo, use fsp, or swipe for
points. What's the point of going then if you are can't do those things if you
are not playing heavy?? Four us it is a round trip of 3 1/2 hrs just to play a
little with nothing else.

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <haaljo@> wrote:
>
> The work-around on the software tripping everything is to just not use card
unless your going to do serious gambling that day.
>
> The giant reduction of theo on all VP; I got no workaround but sometimes
mistakes are made or theo is improved for one reason or another and then
forgotten. We do put $1K through a slot machine if we haven't taken a beating
and when casino offers a fair VP gamble.
>
> This to me is a question of softwre that accurately tracks "player value" in
terms of "average daly loss" and is it a big Fail? Happened before; about 10
years ago as I remember at Edgewater in Laughlin.
>
> And so I have gone down the internet well on land-based casino software.
Trying to determine recent innovations. Lot of info seems to be behind security
wall.
>
> --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
> >
> > Used to be they couldn't distinguish between games on machines but that
changed about 1-2 years ago with a software upgrade and now it is based on the
hold of each game once it is played enough. These changes occured in Vegas years
ago and MS is doing it also. If they correct the software not to trip everything
we might have a chance. I have been complaining to management and my host and
they keep saying they will correct the problem but they have been going back and
forth with the software company about how to correct this. We shall see how this
plays out when the next qualifying period comes. If they don't do something many
players will see a severe downgrade in their status including my wife and I
> > Mel
> >
> > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "cdfsrule" <cdfsrule@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Game var doesn't effect Theo.
> > > Theo (over time) ends up at the actual game return (or machine return in
some casinos, etc)
> > > Casino "comp rate" is some factor times theo, like maybe 15%
> > > Subtract your "cost" (spend), and if the result is negative, you won't
get treated well.
> > >
> > > FWIW, it's still somtimes good to play high var games-- if you can take
the swings-- becuase if losses mean better comps (in excess of above theo
formula) you will do better (on average) on high var games...

> > >
> > > The short of it is that when a casino puts in a new game/machine,
manufacturer (usually) recommend the theo. As time goes on, theo generally
adjusts to the actual hold. If something anomalous happens in the short term
(like actual hold is WAY off from original theo), casino will often just yank
the game, ratther then wait it out.
> > >
> > > It used to be that you would very commonly find a single theo for an
entire machine-- that tended to be dominated by the worst game on it. That was
a good situation for players who knew what was going on-- and they could get way
over comped. But that a rare situation now.
> > >
> > > The issue now is not really game theo changes, but changes in how your
trip data is computed, and a change in focus from coin-in related stuff to
coin-out related.

> > >
> > > The later coin-stuff is not really that new, btw, as MS has been moving
in that direction for some time. The reason is that they had to do something
for the people who come in and lose like $10K or $30K VERY quickly with little
play-- and they wanted that something to be a matter of policy (read: computer
automation) rather then a host's personal whims and gamblers gumption (read: the
gambler had to complain to someone who both cared and could actually do
something, etc)...
> > >
> > > Ironically,by addressing the complaints of only a few big losers, they
created an army of newly unsatisfied customers... (add that to all the people
who are complaining about the trip stuff-- you are complaining, right? -- and
that's a lot of unhappy players). I guess we will be able to devine if it was
all worth it for them revenue-wise, by the way they adjust (or don't adjust)
their new policies.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > try adl-actual daily loss
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Love it!
> > >
> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#18

I'm going to make it a point to go to Fauxwoods this year.
Last year we went and gave them $10K action each. I got some lame stuff; Theresa got nada. She was cut-off years ago from offers after winning $30K; 1st place in slot tournament.

Her "profit" profile was reviewed which back then required human intervention. Will try again but if she's still cut-off then future play would have to be on my card and that doesn't work for us.

···

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, GURU PERF <guruperf@...> wrote:

I'm going to play what I want, when I want. The only concession I made was many
years ago, and that is not to play (on my card, at least) on getaway day from
any casino.

MS has consistently cut down, first the theo, which pared down greatly the ranks
of the Sachem. Then, the free slot play has been declining steadily, as have the
food offers and gift offers. Even the entertainment is now for Sagamores:
"SELECTED" arena events.

But they've locked themselves into a declining spiral as well. A player must
decide what level he is comfortable playing for, and give them the number of
points needed to achieve that level, 800 for Wolf or 1600 for Sagamore. But any
play above that is basically futile. The days of racking up 3200, 4800 or more
points as a Sagamore are gone. Unless you drop $30K, you're not making Sachem as
a $1 player, visiting once or twice a month.

So you can head over to Foxwoods with that extra play, make Gold level, and get
the bennies from both places.

Certainly the game is rigged. Don’t let that stop you; if you don’t bet, you
can’t win. -Lazarus Long

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice,
there is. -Yogi Berra
There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation
to cope with a statistical universe. -Robert Heinlein

________________________________
From: Dave <haaljo@...>
To: vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, July 17, 2011 5:38:03 PM
Subject: [vpFREE_NewEngland] Re: Sachem/Wolf ? free play amount?

That's the way it is at the Las Vegas Hilton. In return, they send $500
bounceback for $30K action/day for two days. The day we leave, don't even buy a
cup of coffee. Buy it the day b4 and drink it cold. Usually around sunrise on
our way to Aquarius in Laughlin to pick up $300 bounceback. Other stops include
Main Street Staton and Green Valley Ranch. Harrah's properties were the first to
make this a big deal as I recollect.

But the new software may be capable of a lot more; or may be rife with
weaknesses; or too complicated to maintain; or just a Fail.

Google land-based casino software. One company highlights their software
permanently tracking every "interaction" a player has with casino.
So be nice:-)

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
>
> Make sure you don't use the lounge, use your parking card, buy anything with
>points, get a room or comped show, pick up a promo, use fsp, or swipe for
>points. What's the point of going then if you are can't do those things if you
>are not playing heavy?? Four us it is a round trip of 3 1/2 hrs just to play a
>little with nothing else.
>
> --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <haaljo@> wrote:
> >
> > The work-around on the software tripping everything is to just not use card
>unless your going to do serious gambling that day.
> >
> > The giant reduction of theo on all VP; I got no workaround but sometimes
>mistakes are made or theo is improved for one reason or another and then
>forgotten. We do put $1K through a slot machine if we haven't taken a beating
>and when casino offers a fair VP gamble.
> >
> > This to me is a question of softwre that accurately tracks "player value" in
>terms of "average daly loss" and is it a big Fail? Happened before; about 10
>years ago as I remember at Edgewater in Laughlin.
> >
> > And so I have gone down the internet well on land-based casino software.
>Trying to determine recent innovations. Lot of info seems to be behind security
>wall.
> >
> > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Used to be they couldn't distinguish between games on machines but that
>changed about 1-2 years ago with a software upgrade and now it is based on the
>hold of each game once it is played enough. These changes occured in Vegas years
>ago and MS is doing it also. If they correct the software not to trip everything
>we might have a chance. I have been complaining to management and my host and
>they keep saying they will correct the problem but they have been going back and
>forth with the software company about how to correct this. We shall see how this
>plays out when the next qualifying period comes. If they don't do something many
>players will see a severe downgrade in their status including my wife and I
> > > Mel
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "cdfsrule" <cdfsrule@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Game var doesn't effect Theo.
> > > > Theo (over time) ends up at the actual game return (or machine return in
>some casinos, etc)
> > > > Casino "comp rate" is some factor times theo, like maybe 15%
> > > > Subtract your "cost" (spend), and if the result is negative, you won't
>get treated well.
> > > >
> > > > FWIW, it's still somtimes good to play high var games-- if you can take
>the swings-- becuase if losses mean better comps (in excess of above theo
>formula) you will do better (on average) on high var games...
>
> > > >
> > > > The short of it is that when a casino puts in a new game/machine,
>manufacturer (usually) recommend the theo. As time goes on, theo generally
>adjusts to the actual hold. If something anomalous happens in the short term
>(like actual hold is WAY off from original theo), casino will often just yank
>the game, ratther then wait it out.
> > > >
> > > > It used to be that you would very commonly find a single theo for an
>entire machine-- that tended to be dominated by the worst game on it. That was
>a good situation for players who knew what was going on-- and they could get way
>over comped. But that a rare situation now.
> > > >
> > > > The issue now is not really game theo changes, but changes in how your
>trip data is computed, and a change in focus from coin-in related stuff to
>coin-out related.
>
> > > >
> > > > The later coin-stuff is not really that new, btw, as MS has been moving
>in that direction for some time. The reason is that they had to do something
>for the people who come in and lose like $10K or $30K VERY quickly with little
>play-- and they wanted that something to be a matter of policy (read: computer
>automation) rather then a host's personal whims and gamblers gumption (read: the
>gambler had to complain to someone who both cared and could actually do
>something, etc)...
> > > >
> > > > Ironically,by addressing the complaints of only a few big losers, they
>created an army of newly unsatisfied customers... (add that to all the people
>who are complaining about the trip stuff-- you are complaining, right? -- and
>that's a lot of unhappy players). I guess we will be able to devine if it was
>all worth it for them revenue-wise, by the way they adjust (or don't adjust)
>their new policies.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@>
>wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > try adl-actual daily loss
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Love it!
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#19

30k a day for 2 days isn't going to get you much at MS unless it is on slots.

···

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <haaljo@...> wrote:

That's the way it is at the Las Vegas Hilton. In return, they send $500 bounceback for $30K action/day for two days. The day we leave, don't even buy a cup of coffee. Buy it the day b4 and drink it cold. Usually around sunrise on our way to Aquarius in Laughlin to pick up $300 bounceback. Other stops include Main Street Staton and Green Valley Ranch. Harrah's properties were the first to make this a big deal as I recollect.

But the new software may be capable of a lot more; or may be rife with weaknesses; or too complicated to maintain; or just a Fail.

Google land-based casino software. One company highlights their software permanently tracking every "interaction" a player has with casino.
So be nice:-)

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
>
> Make sure you don't use the lounge, use your parking card, buy anything with points, get a room or comped show, pick up a promo, use fsp, or swipe for points. What's the point of going then if you are can't do those things if you are not playing heavy?? Four us it is a round trip of 3 1/2 hrs just to play a little with nothing else.
>
> --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <haaljo@> wrote:
> >
> > The work-around on the software tripping everything is to just not use card unless your going to do serious gambling that day.
> >
> > The giant reduction of theo on all VP; I got no workaround but sometimes mistakes are made or theo is improved for one reason or another and then forgotten. We do put $1K through a slot machine if we haven't taken a beating and when casino offers a fair VP gamble.
> >
> > This to me is a question of softwre that accurately tracks "player value" in terms of "average daly loss" and is it a big Fail? Happened before; about 10 years ago as I remember at Edgewater in Laughlin.
> >
> > And so I have gone down the internet well on land-based casino software. Trying to determine recent innovations. Lot of info seems to be behind security wall.
> >
> > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Used to be they couldn't distinguish between games on machines but that changed about 1-2 years ago with a software upgrade and now it is based on the hold of each game once it is played enough. These changes occured in Vegas years ago and MS is doing it also. If they correct the software not to trip everything we might have a chance. I have been complaining to management and my host and they keep saying they will correct the problem but they have been going back and forth with the software company about how to correct this. We shall see how this plays out when the next qualifying period comes. If they don't do something many players will see a severe downgrade in their status including my wife and I
> > > Mel
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "cdfsrule" <cdfsrule@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Game var doesn't effect Theo.
> > > > Theo (over time) ends up at the actual game return (or machine return in some casinos, etc)
> > > > Casino "comp rate" is some factor times theo, like maybe 15%
> > > > Subtract your "cost" (spend), and if the result is negative, you won't get treated well.
> > > >
> > > > FWIW, it's still somtimes good to play high var games-- if you can take the swings-- becuase if losses mean better comps (in excess of above theo formula) you will do better (on average) on high var games...
> > > >
> > > > The short of it is that when a casino puts in a new game/machine, manufacturer (usually) recommend the theo. As time goes on, theo generally adjusts to the actual hold. If something anomalous happens in the short term (like actual hold is WAY off from original theo), casino will often just yank the game, ratther then wait it out.
> > > >
> > > > It used to be that you would very commonly find a single theo for an entire machine-- that tended to be dominated by the worst game on it. That was a good situation for players who knew what was going on-- and they could get way over comped. But that a rare situation now.
> > > >
> > > > The issue now is not really game theo changes, but changes in how your trip data is computed, and a change in focus from coin-in related stuff to coin-out related.
> > > >
> > > > The later coin-stuff is not really that new, btw, as MS has been moving in that direction for some time. The reason is that they had to do something for the people who come in and lose like $10K or $30K VERY quickly with little play-- and they wanted that something to be a matter of policy (read: computer automation) rather then a host's personal whims and gamblers gumption (read: the gambler had to complain to someone who both cared and could actually do something, etc)...
> > > >
> > > > Ironically,by addressing the complaints of only a few big losers, they created an army of newly unsatisfied customers... (add that to all the people who are complaining about the trip stuff-- you are complaining, right? -- and that's a lot of unhappy players). I guess we will be able to devine if it was all worth it for them revenue-wise, by the way they adjust (or don't adjust) their new policies.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > try adl-actual daily loss
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Love it!
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

#20

Mel's got it right on. The pain it takes to go around the new triggers (like how to get a room for $0 AND not trigger a 2 day trip) isn't worth it.

The only extenuating criterium I know of now that they are taking into account is the number of actual trips-- that is, if you keep the # of REAL trips high (multiple per month) and your total coin in is proportionaly high (NOT the new ADT), they will take that data into account when considering letting you (ha!) be a sachem... In other words, if you make only a few actual visits (like 1or 2 per month), it doesn't matter at all how much you play. In fact, it seems that is exactly the not-so-hidden intent of the new software's algorithms! If you don't play often enough, you can't be a sachem unless you lose real BIG-- no matter your coin-in. It's frankly amazing... I've never been to another casino where $250K CI /day (on none-zero theo games) got you nothing (unless you get barred)-- and I've been to a lot of casinos.

···

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "mel3dmdmsncom" <mel3dmd@...> wrote:

Make sure you don't use the lounge, use your parking card, buy anything with points, get a room or comped show, pick up a promo, use fsp, or swipe for points. What's the point of going then if you are can't do those things if you are not playing heavy?? Four us it is a round trip of 3 1/2 hrs just to play a little with nothing else.