vpFREE2 Forums

Rules Revision - MEMBER PARTICIPATION (XVP)

#1

I like it!

May I assume that as of the time of your post, the vpFREE membership was
8671?

Brian

···

=========================================

In a message dated 2/27/2008 7:52:50 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mac_mcclellan@hotmail.com writes:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, vpFREE Administrator <vp_free@...> wrote:

--- Bob Dancer <bdancer@...> wrote:

> This is a nonsensical rule. As written, every member is expected to

do

> an inventory of all 6,000+ games in every casino they visit ---

That's not what was intended. The paragraph has been revised
to include "that they notice":

99.99988467% of us understood it that way to begin with. :wink:

Mac
www.casinocamper.com

**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

I like it!

May I assume that as of the time of your post, the vpFREE membership

was

8671?

Brian

=========================================

In a message dated 2/27/2008 7:52:50 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mac_mcclellan@... writes:

>
> --- Bob Dancer <bdancer@> wrote:
>
> > This is a nonsensical rule. As written, every member is expected

to

do
> > an inventory of all 6,000+ games in every casino they visit ---
>
> That's not what was intended. The paragraph has been revised
> to include "that they notice":
>

99.99988467% of us understood it that way to begin with. :wink:

That's really good. ROFLMAO!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@... wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, vpFREE Administrator <vp_free@> wrote:

#3

Bob Dancer wrote:

> > > This is a nonsensical rule. As written, every member is
> > > expected to do an inventory of all 6,000+ games in every casino
> > > they visit ---

vpFREE Administrator wrote:

> > That's not what was intended. The paragraph has been revised
> > to include "that they notice":

mac_mcclellan@ wrote:

> 99.99988467% of us understood it that way to begin with. :wink:

bjaygold@ wrote:

> I like it!
> May I assume that as of the time of your post, the vpFREE
> membership was 8671?

paladingamingllc wrote:

That's really good. ROFLMAO!

I expect it's laughable that that's the number who actively read the
group. (8673 is the stated membership as of this moment.)

- H.

#4

I put the over/under on vpFREE'ers who routinely violate the rule at
8620.

#5

"Why would Tuna Lund be playing the fify-plays at Baldini's" Cat Man
John asked me.
"Tuna is playing the fifty plays at Baldini's?" I ask back.
"Yeah, why would he be doing that?" John asked again.
"Because it's a play, John. I don't know what it is but I guarantee
you it"s a strong play. I'm going out there now."

What I found was fifty-play nickel 9/6 Jacks with 1% cashback. I got
this play because of what I knew about Tuna.

When you see or hear that a died-in-the-wool, play-pounding, got-em-
by-the-short-hairs, brutal advantage player is at Brand X casino, you
have to ask the question "What's he doing there?" If, by chance, you
see him walking through a casino you have to ask yourself "what's he
doing here?" Then what are you going to do? Why, follow him, of
course. Except you don't want him to know you are following him. If
the trail leads to nothing, so what? But it just might lead you to
something strong. It has for me more than one time. Once you figure
out what the play is just walk up like you knew it was there the
whole time.

What goes around comes around. So the same thing can happen to me.
I can out my own play in a casino just by posting up VP inventory
changes that don't even apply to my play. "What's he doing there?"
is gonna get asked by some. And they just might show up to find out.

So the only way I can see to comply with the rule is time lapse.
There's nothing in the language that says "in a timely manner."

#6

A lot of people got their start dogging Tuna.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Lund

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

"Why would Tuna Lund be playing the fify-plays at Baldini's" Cat Man
John asked me.

#7

Mickeycrimm wrote: I put the over/under on vpFREE'ers who routinely
violate the rule at 8620.

I'll take the under. If there were some way to measure this, I'd be
willing to bet enough to put you all in. That's got to be WAY too high.
First of all, there are many members who believe the rules require
outing all great plays, and of those folks, many will comply simply
because they believe those are the rules. (I wouldn't expect any of
these folks to have much of a chance at playing a winning game.)

At best the rules request compliance --- with a ton of outs ---
including one you mentioned in that so long as you announce any change
you discover within a year or three, you're obeying the rule. There are
other loopholes bigger than that one.

The only penalty for non-compliance is being denounced on this forum by
Tral the Troll and others --- but only if

  1. They know you're playing this game (which is not usually
the case for me, and I'm as high profile as it gets around here, and for
many low profile members it NEVER happens.)
  2. They assume (often incorrectly) that you know what the
database says about this casino. I personally haven't checked the GVR
entry in the database in at least three years. I hadn't even set foot in
the casino for gambling purposes in that time and except for the 7x
point promotion and the cashback slot club, never intended to. How could
I have been expected to know whether the Multi Strike game was listed or
not?
  3. They don't like you for some reason. (It was accurately
announced here that Jean played the same game --- yet not one peep of
chastisement was sent her direction for keeping this secret).

  But once you recognize these folks for what they are and learn
not to reapond back to them, there is actually no penalty at all.

  Ask yourself how many vpFREE members can you recognize by sight?
Some of us (including Jean and Scott Krause) have regular published
articles with our picture on it --- and in my case have taught classes
attended by a significant percentage of members at least once. But how
many know what Mickey, Paladin, Cogno, Night, Karen, Harry, CoachVee,
etc., look like? (I know some of these --- not others). Some pretty high
percentage of members have never posted --- even under a pseudonym ---
so unless they're a friend of yours and you know they belong, you have
no way of knowing. These people can be requested to comply with this
particular rule, but there's no penalty whatsoever for non-compliance.

  Not counting these problems, to "routinely violate the rule"
implies that you have to regularly find descrepancies between the
database and what's really there. A significant number of vpFREE members
almost never find such things, so how can they possibly routinely
violate the rule? They don't scout and they wait for others to tell them
about good plays. (And probably wonder why they are always on the short
end of the stick.)

  It also implies they're smart enough to figure out the benefits
of keeping quiet on certain plays. Clearly many here don't meet that IQ
test.

  Your estimation of 8620 assumes a high percentage of members are
like you (and me, for that matter). I find that assumption
unbelieveable.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

#8

The only penalty for non-compliance is being denounced on this forum

by

Tral the Troll and others --- but only if

Well, Bob, you've just sunk even lower. So I'm now "Tral the Troll" (a
fantastically witty appellation) because I don't agree with you or with
your methods? Well, take your ego out for a walk, Bob--I don't post
here for the sole purpose of getting a rise out of you, or anyone else
for that matter.

People like you and mickeycrimm give advantage players a bad name. Your
attitude is self-serving and hostile, and in your case, your ethics are
highly--HIGHLY--dubious. That's how you've chosen to run your life, but
that's the only defense you have--that in your "independent spirit",
you work for the benefit of Bob Dancer--period.

In the lovely spirit of name-calling that you've established, in future
posts I will now call you "Bob the Boob"--and everyone will know who
I'm talking about.

#9

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tralfamidorgooglycrackers"
<tralfamidorgooglycrackers@...> wrote:

> The only penalty for non-compliance is being denounced on this

forum

by
> Tral the Troll and others --- but only if
>

Well, Bob, you've just sunk even lower. So I'm now "Tral the Troll"

(a

fantastically witty appellation) because I don't agree with you or

with

your methods? Well, take your ego out for a walk, Bob--I don't post
here for the sole purpose of getting a rise out of you, or anyone

else

for that matter.

People like you and mickeycrimm give advantage players a bad name.

Your

attitude is self-serving and hostile, and in your case, your ethics

are

highly--HIGHLY--dubious. That's how you've chosen to run your life,

but

that's the only defense you have--that in your "independent

spirit",

you work for the benefit of Bob Dancer--period.

In the lovely spirit of name-calling that you've established, in

future

posts I will now call you "Bob the Boob"--and everyone will know

who

I'm talking about.

Well Said

#10

{... big snip ...}
It also implies they're smart enough to figure out
the benefits of keeping quiet on certain plays. Clearly
many here don't meet that IQ test.

Bob Dancer

The vast majority of readers are not professional
gamblers, hance have a different mindset about the
entire proposition. Most of us are recreational
players who don't haunt casinos looking for plays.
I think paladin has summarized the difference well.
The falicy here is to assume people are dumb because
they don't play your game.

Let's get real, everyone understands the policy and
you're writing tomes where you split hairs and name
call. I would note that it's posts like these
that tend to alienate folks Bob. It's why Jean will
always be the friendly grandma type (no offence) and
you'll be the, ... well you know the word. Let it go.

#11

And quite a few expect the play to be chaffeured to their house. Like
Jean, for example. She's beloved here (well, not 100%, there's a few
AC VP players who hate her), which is hilarious. I'm sure she's a nice
enough lady, but she gives up nothing here-total 100% taker. She even
once had the temerity to write me and ask me for my "discards"-after
she refused to answer an inquiry I em'd her about. To be fair to Jean,
I really don't care for such economy-minded people. Most VP pros have
a lot of the same mindset as she. When she says "frugal", not only
does she mean it, but it's an understatement.

I'm personally a big believer in "going out and getting it". In the
last year, I've had two 6% plays at dollars. Yup, 6%. Now, why should
I tell you about those plays so others can roll them up for me? You do
the math on how much 6% is worth. I know this much, I wasn't finding
these plays here, that's for sure.

There will always be an element here which profoundly doesn't get it.
You can't talk to these people, why even bother? I mean, I'm defending
you on this, that's how bad it is (although Paladin Rule #555 is,
"when you're right, you're right"). I think you're spending way too
much time on this, if you ask me. Must be a slow news day out in
Henderson.

In other news, I should have a blog entry up by Monday. We'll see how
many people I can piss off with this one. Hint: we'll be discussing
how to win (and get paid on) a points challenge.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bdancer@...> wrote:

  Not counting these problems, to "routinely violate the rule"
implies that you have to regularly find descrepancies between the
database and what's really there. A significant number of vpFREE members
almost never find such things, so how can they possibly routinely
violate the rule? They don't scout and they wait for others to tell them
about good plays. (And probably wonder why they are always on the short
end of the stick.)

#12

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "paladingamingllc"
<paladingamingllc@...> wrote:

... And quite a few expect the play to be chaffeured to their house. >

As a recreational player I understand why pros such as Bob, Paladin,
Mickey, and others would not want to "out" plays they discover or are
privy to. I greatly appreciate their input and participation on this
board.

What disturbs me more than not be privy to a good play, is going to a
casino and finding a play no longer available. Even in the case of
pros, it is simple courtesy to let others know of the demise of a
posted play, and I would hope everyone complies at least to that
extent. Based on my meeting certain pros, I have found them to be
courteous and I trust they have complied with the rules of this board
to the extent possible without compromising their livelihoods.

David

#13

  Not counting these problems, to "routinely violate the rule"
implies that you have to regularly find descrepancies between the
database and what's really there. A significant number of vpFREE

members

almost never find such things, so how can they possibly routinely
violate the rule? They don't scout and they wait for others to

tell them

about good plays. (And probably wonder why they are always on the

short

end of the stick.)

  It also implies they're smart enough to figure out the

benefits

of keeping quiet on certain plays. Clearly many here don't meet

that IQ

test.

  Your estimation of 8620 assumes a high percentage of members

are

like you (and me, for that matter). I find that assumption
unbelieveable.

Yes, clearly many vpFREE members, your customers btw, are idiots,
Bob;-) Please note winking smiley for any irony impaired member who
may still wonder whether they should be offended at being called an
idiot. As you note, there is no vpFREE surveillance, no vpFREE
court and the closest thing to vpFREE jail is FREEvpFREE... more of
a time out corner, really. The rule is unenforceable, as everyone
knows. Yet the database exists and is fairly accurate.

vpFREE is in many respects a cooperative. I use the database on
occasion for the sake of expediance. I have a couple of days in Las
Vegas and the vp terrain can change dramatically between visits. I
will occasionally find and attempt to pick a cherry, but a thorough
canvas of numerous casinos is impossible. If I note a change I
consider it a measure of respect to my fellow forum and database
contributors to report it... 108% plays and or obvious casino
mistakes aside.

Presumably everyone who participates in vpFREE gets something out of
it. Some seek information or enjoy explaining to those who wish to
be informed. Some are here to sell. Some participate to have their
egos massaged. Some enjoy a sense of community or just enjoy
telling a good story. We each need to decide what we pay back to
the membership for what we get. vpFREE is on the honor system.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video

poker

computer trainer ever invented, go

to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bdancer@...> wrote:

#14

Paladin wrote: Like Jean, for example. She's beloved here (well, not
100%, there's a few AC VP players who hate her), which is hilarious. I'm
sure she's a nice enough lady, but she gives up nothing here-total 100%
taker. She even once had the temerity to write me and ask me for my
"discards"-after she refused to answer an inquiry I em'd her about.

Wow! You spit on the Queen and almost 24 hours later NO ONE HAS SAID A
WORD TO YOU ABOUT THAT. You're my hero (although I believe you overstate
your case against Jean. She does sometimes point out slot club info
which is useful to many).

If I suggest that she sometimes jaywalks, I'll get four emails
criticizing me for arrogance and lack of manners for picking on such a
nice LOL.

The dynamics of this forum are something else.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

#15

The dynamics of this forum are something else.

Bob Dancer

I can't imagine why you debase yourself in this manner, to

participate with all of us, who treat you so unfairly.

Also, I can't see why those of us who put less than the price of a

four-bedroom house through the machines every day should share
cyberspace with THEE.

···

Truly, it's puzzling why you stick around.

#16

Wow! You spit on the Queen and almost 24 hours later NO ONE HAS SAID A
WORD TO YOU ABOUT THAT. You're my hero (although I believe you

overstate

your case against Jean. She does sometimes point out slot club info
which is useful to many).

If I suggest that she sometimes jaywalks, I'll get four emails
criticizing me for arrogance and lack of manners for picking on such a
nice LOL.

The dynamics of this forum are something else.

Bob Dancer

It's your history, Bob. You have a long history of bashing the
competition. That's a business strategy that most avoid.

In the 25 years of job skipping I did before finding my true calling I
did some time selling cars, furniture, mobile homes. There was
training involved and the outfits I worked for did not believe that
negative selling, as a strategy, worked. You siimply avoided
mentioning the competition. If the compeition was brought up by the
prospect you would simply say something like "that's great, but this is
what we have to offer" and move on.

Their reasoning was negative selling is seen as unseemly or ugly by too
many people. Consequently, it's bad public relations.

Overall, I think you are a pretty good guy. It's just when you go into
bashing the competition that I think myself and others get
aggravated.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bdancer@...> wrote:

#17

Consider the tone of the message delivery. Constructive criticism discussions are beneficial but very difficult to control from turning totally negative. Being an out-of-town recreational player (but studies/practices enough to be ahead, including owning some of your products) who does maybe 4 trips a year, I find VpFree very beneficial, and yes, I report most needed database changes at my $25 & $1 denom level that I see. Also, like most of you, I would not report a super positive play --have only found one of these and it was MIA by the end of my 4-day trip. Finally, everyone should remember that we all have a "delete" key.
Bobfpdw

···

-----------------------

Bob Dancer <bdancer@compdance.com> wrote: >Paladin wrote: Like Jean, ... but she gives up nothing here-total 100%

taker.

Wow! ... NO ONE HAS SAID A WORD TO YOU ABOUT THAT.... I'll get four emails criticizing me for arrogance and lack of manners for picking on such a nice LOL.

The dynamics of this forum are something else.

---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#18

I am happy to post opportunities but what is profitable to one may not be to another. For example JOB with a .50 Cash back would reauire perfect play to be profitable (I don't play that well, does anyone?)but to me would be good if you get comps and offers but if you live across the street from the casino and eat at home would u play it?
   
  Second idea, if there is one machine with a fat pay schedule what's the point of having 8620 people wait in line to play it? But if it's a promo or many machines I believe the spirit of the rules would imply that you should post it next time you log on to your email provider that has the group. Now if you are away from home and would have to pay to access the internet of course it should not be expected. What would happen if no one posted any opportunities? We would all have to get off our donkeys (if we haven't lost them already) and find the opportunities. Perish the thought!

          > {... big snip ...}

It also implies they're smart enough to figure out
the benefits of keeping quiet on certain plays. Clearly
many here don't meet that IQ test.

Bob Dancer

The vast majority of readers are not professional
gamblers, hance have a different mindset about the
entire proposition. Most of us are recreational
players who don't haunt casinos looking for plays.
I think paladin has summarized the difference well.
The falicy here is to assume people are dumb because
they don't play your game.

Let's get real, everyone understands the policy and
you're writing tomes where you split hairs and name
call. I would note that it's posts like these
that tend to alienate folks Bob. It's why Jean will
always be the friendly grandma type (no offence) and
you'll be the, ... well you know the word. Let it go.

···

worldbefree22001 <krajewski.sa@pg.com> wrote:

---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#19

profitable (I don't play that well, does anyone?)but to me would be
good if you get comps and offers but if you live across the street
from the casino and eat at home would u play it?

A breakeven game has only about a 50% chance of being profitable,
assuming your loss limit is about the same as the casino's. If your
loss limit is half the casino's, the odds go to 2-1 against (33%). If
your loss limit is a tenth of the casino's, the odds are 10-1 against
(9%).

http://wizardofodds.com/askthewizard/probability.html

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, pesach kremen <royalflush2222@...> wrote:

For example JOB with a .50 Cash back would reauire perfect play to be