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Royal Buster Strategy on Progressives

The Late Lenny Frome in his book about VP Nat'l game of Chance had one column (this book is composed of his columns) about what he called the "Royal Buster" strategy. This was where, for a very small cost, you could increase your chances of a royal. He used examples that would cost about 1/2 of 1 %. To me this is similar to progressive strategy modifications. Recently, for example, I had a situation of K-T suited with an off suit A and XX in a 9/7 DB progressive. Progressive was at $5200 (reset $4K) - I thought about it and played K-T. Fortunate Decision!!!
But how far was I off with this gamble?? I know I will be chastised if it was the wrong play but was it really that bad?

Note, FWIW, play value to me was 9/7 DB, slot club of 0.3, plus value from getting stays and meals due my play at this casino.

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pesach kremen wrote:

The Late Lenny Frome in his book about VP Nat'l game of Chance had
one column (this book is composed of his columns) about what he
called the "Royal Buster" strategy. This was where, for a very small
cost, you could increase your chances of a royal. He used examples
that would cost about 1/2 of 1 %. To me this is similar to
progressive strategy modifications. Recently, for example, I had a
situation of K-T suited with an off suit A and XX in a 9/7 DB
progressive. Progressive was at $5200 (reset $4K) - I thought about
it and played K-T. Fortunate Decision!!!
But how far was I off with this gamble?? I know I will be chastised
if it was the wrong play but was it really that bad?

Ok, I imagine you have access to winpoker or the like. So you can
evaluate your hand with the software ("Analyze/Any Hand" in Winpoker)
to determine the best hold for this hand at this meter value and where
the K-T sits in relation to it (if not one and the same). So I'll
touch on the general topic of "royal busting" (which is distinctly
different from modifying strategy to maximize ER in playing a
progressive).

If you're talking about a particularly strong value scenario -- one
you're likely to rarely encounter, say your 9/7 DB with a 16000+
credit meter -- there's a particular attraction to aggressively going
for the royal. A moderate ER sacrifice (of perhaps even 1%) that will
significantly increase your chances of hitting the royal and
benefiting from this "one time" opportunity can be rationalized,
within limits.

However, it's important to recognize that in doing so you reliably
increase your loss until such time as you hit the royal, and therefore
also increase the portion of your bankroll that you necessarily must
set aside in pursuing this type of play -- a cost that's not to be
taken on lightly.

But when it comes to an example such as what you outline, there isn't
much sense to it. It's a play opportunity that you're likely to
encounter in various forms repeatedly throughout your play career.
"Royal busting" isn't warranted here anymore than playing harder for
the royal when playing a standard non-progressive paytable.

In this case it becomes far more likely that you'll end up with a
subpar return in "royal busting" than coming out ahead of expectation.

- Harry

That's not a play I'd make with an Ace showing (the only correct
Singer-play is to hold the lone Ace in that game) but even if you hit
the $5200 RF you'll get chastised by the so-called math people
saying "That was a very stupid play and you didn't win anything at
all because it really COST you $X, and in the long run you'll end up
losing because of it".

Now you can see how stupid a statement that is yet I get that stuff
all the time, even though my plays that deviate from optimal-strategy
have made me hundreds of thousands of dollars throughout the years.

The problem the gurus and math folks have is they apply long-term
rules to short-term play -- completely contradicting everything else
they say about the game. And worse, they don't see it. Imagine trying
to make sense out of telling a player who just won $5200 that if they
see that hand a million times and always play it that way, they'll
end up in the red! It is, hands down, the main reason I continually
make them look so dumb week after week after week.

BTW--Lenny Frome may have had the math down right, but he told my
book publisher several times (after he gave up video poker) that no
one could ever beat the game playing mathematically perfect because
it can't be done, he couldn't do it, and anyone who says they do it
or it can be done, is a flat-out liar. Ever since I was told that in
2000, he has been my idol. Yet his son, Elliot, remains so misled
about everything in video poker, and you have to wonder if the genes
are the same. Or maybe it'll just take a little while for him to wake
up like his dad finally did.

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, pesach kremen <royalflush2222@...>
wrote:

The Late Lenny Frome in his book about VP Nat'l game of Chance had

one column (this book is composed of his columns) about what he
called the "Royal Buster" strategy. This was where, for a very small
cost, you could increase your chances of a royal. He used examples
that would cost about 1/2 of 1 %. To me this is similar to
progressive strategy modifications. Recently, for example, I had a
situation of K-T suited with an off suit A and XX in a 9/7 DB
progressive. Progressive was at $5200 (reset $4K) - I thought about
it and played K-T. Fortunate Decision!!!

But how far was I off with this gamble?? I know I will be

chastised if it was the wrong play but was it really that bad?

Note, FWIW, play value to me was 9/7 DB, slot club of 0.3, plus

value from getting stays and meals due my play at this casino.

---------------------------------
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Agree and disagree. Once a play is done, it's done. You are either the $5200 ahead of one bet behind. No amount of posturing by the math experts or amateurs or money management players can change past results. You are correct there.

The math does make a real difference, especially in multi strike. One unit of a full house on several days play, definitely is significant thus the math can't really be ignored if you play a lot. I am sure that if you have a choice of better pay tables, no one would say no.

As to short and long term, over the years my play at FPDW (rarer now as it's is being removed most places) is close to the statistical norm.

But if one is playing for fun (of course we all want to win) it does make best sense to play the games with the lowest house PC's, especially if you visit and play a lot. But within that, let's have fun. I chose Lenny's Royal Buster Strategy Article as how to try for the good hits with minimal cost. As you mentioned no one can play perfectly although I do admit that some can come pretty close on games where this is easy to do (FPDW) but extremely difficult on others (DB) thus a close approximation of play geared towards getting the Royal loses little in expected value. Of course never make the typical tourist plays, i.e, in the above example play both the Ace and King unsuited (except in multistrike to move up to the next row) as this way you reduce your chances of AAAA and can't get the
Royal. I do know, and have noticed that making the right plays does make you last longer but minor differences to many decimal points at the quarter level are meaningless. If one sits down at a progressive it is to go for the Royal. One must also deal with the psychological feelings if you make a play and then realize that if you played it the other way you would of got the Royal. Thus we agree and disagree,

robsinger1111 <robsinger1111@yahoo.com> wrote: That's not a play I'd make with an Ace showing (the only correct
Singer-play is to hold the lone Ace in that game) but even if you hit
the $5200 RF you'll get chastised by the so-called math people
saying "That was a very stupid play and you didn't win anything at
all because it really COST you $X, and in the long run you'll end up
losing because of it".

Now you can see how stupid a statement that is yet I get that stuff
all the time, even though my plays that deviate from optimal-strategy
have made me hundreds of thousands of dollars throughout the years.

The problem the gurus and math folks have is they apply long-term
rules to short-term play -- completely contradicting everything else
they say about the game. And worse, they don't see it. Imagine trying
to make sense out of telling a player who just won $5200 that if they
see that hand a million times and always play it that way, they'll
end up in the red! It is, hands down, the main reason I continually
make them look so dumb week after week after week.

BTW--Lenny Frome may have had the math down right, but he told my
book publisher several times (after he gave up video poker) that no
one could ever beat the game playing mathematically perfect because
it can't be done, he couldn't do it, and anyone who says they do it
or it can be done, is a flat-out liar. Ever since I was told that in
2000, he has been my idol. Yet his son, Elliot, remains so misled
about everything in video poker, and you have to wonder if the genes
are the same. Or maybe it'll just take a little while for him to wake
up like his dad finally did.

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, pesach kremen <royalflush2222@...>
wrote:
>
> The Late Lenny Frome in his book about VP Nat'l game of Chance had
one column (this book is composed of his columns) about what he
called the "Royal Buster" strategy. This was where, for a very small
cost, you could increase your chances of a royal. He used examples
that would cost about 1/2 of 1 %. To me this is similar to
progressive strategy modifications. Recently, for example, I had a
situation of K-T suited with an off suit A and XX in a 9/7 DB
progressive. Progressive was at $5200 (reset $4K) - I thought about
it and played K-T. Fortunate Decision!!!
> But how far was I off with this gamble?? I know I will be
chastised if it was the wrong play but was it really that bad?
>
> Note, FWIW, play value to me was 9/7 DB, slot club of 0.3, plus
value from getting stays and meals due my play at this casino.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
Try it now.

···

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

PKremen,

    I wanted to comment on the last part of your posting and say that
it is probably an illusion these days that, in your example, the JQAs
would have come up on the draw regardless if you had held the KTs or
the lone Ace.

    It is my understanding that, at least with moderately new (and
newer) machines, the cards are being constantly shuffled at a
lightning-fast speed on *both* the deal and draw. If this is true, it
would have been highly unlikely you would have caught the same three
cards if you had held the Ace because the "draw" button would have
been pressed at a different microsecond....

     Anyway, congrats on your royal! Always nice to hit 'em
(especially progressives).

      Jim

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, pesach kremen <royalflush2222@...>
wrote:

Agree and disagree. Once a play is done, it's done. You are either

the $5200 ahead of one bet behind. No amount of posturing by the math
experts or amateurs or money management players can change past
results. You are correct there.

The math does make a real difference, especially in multi strike.

One unit of a full house on several days play, definitely is
significant thus the math can't really be ignored if you play a lot.
I am sure that if you have a choice of better pay tables, no one would
say no.

As to short and long term, over the years my play at FPDW (rarer now

as it's is being removed most places) is close to the statistical norm.

But if one is playing for fun (of course we all want to win) it does

make best sense to play the games with the lowest house PC's,
especially if you visit and play a lot. But within that, let's have
fun. I chose Lenny's Royal Buster Strategy Article as how to try for
the good hits with minimal cost. As you mentioned no one can play
perfectly although I do admit that some can come pretty close on games
where this is easy to do (FPDW) but extremely difficult on others (DB)
thus a close approximation of play geared towards getting the Royal
loses little in expected value. Of course never make the typical
tourist plays, i.e, in the above example play both the Ace and King
unsuited (except in multistrike to move up to the next row) as this
way you reduce your chances of AAAA and can't get the

Royal. I do know, and have noticed that making the right plays does

make you last longer but minor differences to many decimal points at
the quarter level are meaningless. If one sits down at a progressive
it is to go for the Royal. One must also deal with the psychological
feelings if you make a play and then realize that if you played it the
other way you would of got the Royal. Thus we agree and disagree,

robsinger1111 <robsinger1111@...> wrote:

That's not a play I'd make with an Ace showing (the only correct

Singer-play is to hold the lone Ace in that game) but even if you hit
the $5200 RF you'll get chastised by the so-called math people
saying "That was a very stupid play and you didn't win anything at
all because it really COST you $X, and in the long run you'll end up
losing because of it".

Now you can see how stupid a statement that is yet I get that stuff
all the time, even though my plays that deviate from optimal-strategy
have made me hundreds of thousands of dollars throughout the years.

The problem the gurus and math folks have is they apply long-term
rules to short-term play -- completely contradicting everything else
they say about the game. And worse, they don't see it. Imagine trying
to make sense out of telling a player who just won $5200 that if they
see that hand a million times and always play it that way, they'll
end up in the red! It is, hands down, the main reason I continually
make them look so dumb week after week after week.

BTW--Lenny Frome may have had the math down right, but he told my
book publisher several times (after he gave up video poker) that no
one could ever beat the game playing mathematically perfect because
it can't be done, he couldn't do it, and anyone who says they do it
or it can be done, is a flat-out liar. Ever since I was told that in
2000, he has been my idol. Yet his son, Elliot, remains so misled
about everything in video poker, and you have to wonder if the genes
are the same. Or maybe it'll just take a little while for him to wake
up like his dad finally did.

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, pesach kremen <royalflush2222@>
wrote:
>
> The Late Lenny Frome in his book about VP Nat'l game of Chance had
one column (this book is composed of his columns) about what he
called the "Royal Buster" strategy. This was where, for a very small
cost, you could increase your chances of a royal. He used examples
that would cost about 1/2 of 1 %. To me this is similar to
progressive strategy modifications. Recently, for example, I had a
situation of K-T suited with an off suit A and XX in a 9/7 DB
progressive. Progressive was at $5200 (reset $4K) - I thought about
it and played K-T. Fortunate Decision!!!
> But how far was I off with this gamble?? I know I will be
chastised if it was the wrong play but was it really that bad?
>
> Note, FWIW, play value to me was 9/7 DB, slot club of 0.3, plus
value from getting stays and meals due my play at this casino.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
Try it now.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.

Try it now.

···

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, pesach kremen <royalflush2222@...>
wrote:

The math does make a real difference, especially in multi strike.

One unit of a full house on several days play, definitely is
significant thus the math can't really be ignored if you play a lot.
I am sure that if you have a choice of better pay tables, no one
would say no.

Multi-Strike or not, the math does make a difference if your plan is
to sit at the thing for too many hours and IF you play as a robot
would. Sure you'll get more credits if the pay table pays 5 more for
a FH or flush, and you'll get more chances out of it. But put that
strategy up against one in which you set goals, cash out and leave
upon attaining them, and it's no contest at all. Besides, my strategy
says to play the best pay tables available WHERE YOU ARE PLAYING
regardless. Further, progressing in denomination while waiting for
that good hit is much more efficient than pounding away at the keys
for many hours trying to beat the casino at its best game--the math.
  

As to short and long term, over the years my play at FPDW (rarer

now as it's is being removed most places) is close to the statistical
norm.

I understand, and others have said that also. But once again, over
the years my play at BP, DDB, TBP+ and SDBP are all extraordinarily
greater than the statistical norm for each game because of the method
I've used. When I played only >100% games for 6+ years, my results
were always slightly below the norm. And even if they were slightly
higher, it would not have been nearly enough to allow me to make a
living playing them.

I don't know if we disagree as much as it appears. The goal is to win
and to enjoy the process. I believe I've found the perfect balance
and others like you believe the same. The difference is I win more
money, to the dismay of people like Dick and several other envious
goofballs.

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "robsinger1111" <robsinger1111@...>
wrote:

> The math does make a real difference

What is this, a slip of the tongue?

But put that strategy up against one in which you set goals, cash out
and leave upon attaining them, and it's no contest at all.

Explain to us how driving back to Scottsdale and tagging the building
is a legitimate strategy. Explain it to us like we are three year
olds.

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...>
wrote:

> > The math does make a real difference

What is this, a slip of the tongue?

No. Most critics forget that I agree with the math behind optimal-play.
It's just impossible to duplicate a robot's results throughout
infinity, and the casinos know that.

Explain to us how driving back to Scottsdale and tagging the building
is a legitimate strategy. Explain it to us like we are three year
olds.

Not Scottsdale any more--use Phoenix as your reference, like most
children would.

Folks like you - who find it impossible to stay away from the machines
(like your friend Dick, for example, and the Queen & lover, Dancer, and
all the rest of the true addicts on vpFREE who either live in Nv. or go
to those stupid Indian casinos every week) systematically reject the
idea of leaving when ahead because your gambling problems would never
allow you to recognize that such a procedure could be implemented
successfully. However, one who understands the concept of discipline
can do anything they choose to do, and by definition that automatically
excludes habitual gamblers.

"Tagging the building" is a phrase Fezzik from LVA came up with, and of
course now, after being publicly called on his assertions to back them
up in a very large challenge, he's regretting that illogic.

A gambler finds success not by trying to beat the casinos at their own
math game, but by being innovative and reacting to particular
circumstances in a way that no one expects. In my case, hitting the
walk-away winner and then returning foe another session 3 weeks later
starting at the lowest denomination and least volatile game makes
complete sense. Plus, playing a $25 game while hitting that big winner
and then trying to concentrate and enjoy starting at dollars again is
very uninteresting and creates difficulty in concentration--UNLESS you
put time and space between sessions. And there is no substitute for the
delight of a 4-1/2 hour drive after taking casino money, ie, attaining
the goal.

Now go back to your favorite machine and pound away aimlessly for
another 8 hours as you try try try to get into the "long-term", and
that teeny weeny % that only a mother could love.

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...>
wrote:

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "robsinger1111" <robsinger1111@>
wrote:
>
>
> > The math does make a real difference
>
>
What is this, a slip of the tongue?

>
>
> But put that strategy up against one in which you set goals, cash

out

>and leave upon attaining them, and it's no contest at all.
>
>
Explain to us how driving back to Scottsdale and tagging the

building

is a legitimate strategy. Explain it to us like we are three year
olds.

... it is an illusion."

RS is a surreal entertainment who actually trumpets his
artificiality. His words are just an illusion to create power over
the reader through attention, manipulation, and abuse.

Experience the show (if you must), but don't expect to find logic or
meaning.

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "robsinger1111"
<robsinger1111@...> wrote:

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@>
wrote:

> > > The math does make a real difference

> What is this, a slip of the tongue?

No. Most critics forget that I agree with the math behind optimal-

play.

It's just impossible to duplicate a robot's results throughout
infinity, and the casinos know that.

> Explain to us how driving back to Scottsdale and tagging the

building

> is a legitimate strategy. Explain it to us like we are three

year

> olds.

Not Scottsdale any more--use Phoenix as your reference, like most
children would.

Folks like you - who find it impossible to stay away from the

machines

(like your friend Dick, for example, and the Queen & lover, Dancer,

and

all the rest of the true addicts on vpFREE who either live in Nv.

or go

to those stupid Indian casinos every week) systematically reject

the

idea of leaving when ahead because your gambling problems would

never

allow you to recognize that such a procedure could be implemented
successfully. However, one who understands the concept of

discipline

can do anything they choose to do, and by definition that

automatically

excludes habitual gamblers.

"Tagging the building" is a phrase Fezzik from LVA came up with,

and of

course now, after being publicly called on his assertions to back

them

up in a very large challenge, he's regretting that illogic.

A gambler finds success not by trying to beat the casinos at their

own

math game, but by being innovative and reacting to particular
circumstances in a way that no one expects. In my case, hitting the
walk-away winner and then returning foe another session 3 weeks

later

starting at the lowest denomination and least volatile game makes
complete sense. Plus, playing a $25 game while hitting that big

winner

and then trying to concentrate and enjoy starting at dollars again

is

very uninteresting and creates difficulty in concentration--UNLESS

you

put time and space between sessions. And there is no substitute for

the

delight of a 4-1/2 hour drive after taking casino money, ie,

attaining

the goal.

Now go back to your favorite machine and pound away aimlessly for
another 8 hours as you try try try to get into the "long-term", and
that teeny weeny % that only a mother could love.

Actually, I've been working on other projects the last few weeks.
Haven't been playing any video poker. I made $18,000 in the first
quarter this year. Believe it or not, my biggest single jackpot was
$650. In other words, I didn't hit one big jackpot and then call
myself a vp pro. Since the jackpots I'm hitting are so small, and I
made $18,000 that means I'm walking out the door a winner one hell of
a lot of times.