vpFREE2 Forums

RNG On RF's

#1

I agree that chips like to keep cycling - shutting off and on creates
thermal breakdown. While I'm an EE, I don't understand what is meant by a
PRNG (Programmable Random Number Generator?). Is this a dedicated chip, or
is it just a microprocessor with ROM? What do you mean by "pseudo RNG"?

Jim

···

Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 07:59:44 -0800
  From: g_bazuin@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: RNG On RF's

I'm an EE too and the power to turn on/off a pseudo RNG would be more than
the PRNG takes. Plus the power supply works best with constant load.
Gary
<<

#2

Well, to be honest with all, I to am an engineer. Which is probably why I asked the question in the first place. I just remember sitting and thinking to my self, self, Damn, you might hit one right off the bat. Hmmmmmm, is that card already selected or was it just shuffled somewhere else why I marvel at a 1 in 40K try.

As someone else said earlier, It really doesn't matter, the odds are still the same.

Thansk to all,
David
Jim Wolf <jimwolf@frugalgambler.biz> wrote:I agree that chips like to keep cycling - shutting off and on creates
thermal breakdown. While I'm an EE, I don't understand what is meant by a
PRNG (Programmable Random Number Generator?). Is this a dedicated chip, or
is it just a microprocessor with ROM? What do you mean by "pseudo RNG"?

Jim

···

Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 07:59:44 -0800
  From: g_bazuin@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: RNG On RF's

I'm an EE too and the power to turn on/off a pseudo RNG would be more than
the PRNG takes. Plus the power supply works best with constant load.
Gary
<<

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#3

PRNG is pseudo RNG. Computers generate pseudo random numbers, with a given
input and algorithm the next output is always the same (insert your own
Microsoft joke here). If a prng algorithm uses N bits the maximum length
before a number repeats is 2^N-1. Or in numbers if N=3 the sequence be 7
long will hit every number between 0 and 6 and then repeat. VP uses an N
bigger than 3. Here's what you get if you look at the 2 least significant
binary bits and they are the same, divide the number by 2 and add 4. If the
bits are different, just divide by 2. Or in excel:

=IF(OR(MOD(A2,4)=0,MOD(A2,4)=3),TRUNC(A2/2)+4,TRUNC(A2/2))
0
4
6
3
5
2
1
0
4
6
3
Not a very good random sequence, but it's just an example. These number keep
cycling and when you push the button which ever one is on top gets picked.
Now here's where I'm guessing, but I don't think that all 10 cards are
picked at once.
The order of the cards matter (there are 120 possible dealt diamond royals)
so
=permut(52,10) = 5.74077E+16
your prng wouldn't have completed a full sequence since Bill Gates was born.
=permut(52,5)=3.12E+08
A 1Ghz (1e9) clock would repeat the sequence 3 times a second. That's
120*4*3=1440 dealt royals passing by every second (and a billion non-royals)
all you need to do is push the button at the correct time.
Then on the redraw there would be
=permut(47,5) = 1.84E+08
Now what confuses me is a while back a link was given that got into the
details of how Nevada knows that the game is dealing fair. It included a
computer connection and commands so the test machine could play fast and
record results. If all 3.12E+08 combinations where mapped to dealt cards and
all 1.84E+08 draws where mapped, then I could prove by inspection that the
game was fair and wouldn't need to connect it to Nevada's test equipment.
Gary

Wrom: FGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUF

···

----- Original Message -----
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 6:25 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: RNG On RF's

I agree that chips like to keep cycling - shutting off and on creates
thermal breakdown. While I'm an EE, I don't understand what is meant by a
PRNG (Programmable Random Number Generator?). Is this a dedicated chip, or
is it just a microprocessor with ROM? What do you mean by "pseudo RNG"?

Jim

Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 07:59:44 -0800
  Wrom: PEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBI
Subject: Re: RNG On RF's

>>
I'm an EE too and the power to turn on/off a pseudo RNG would be more than
the PRNG takes. Plus the power supply works best with constant load.
Gary
<<

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http://www.lvcm.com/tomesims/VP/Links.html

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#4

So in essence, it doesn't matter how you play, but when you play? <g> I just have to sit there, wait for the perfect billasecond, and deal the cards. With 1440 Rf's dealt every second, how could I possibly miss getting a RF nearly every time. :>

ADR

···

At 07:46 PM 3/26/03, you wrote:

That's 120*4*3=1440 dealt royals passing by every second (and a billion non-royals) all you need to do is push the button at the correct time.

#5

Now here's where I'm guessing, but I don't think that all 10 cards

are

picked at once.
The order of the cards matter (there are 120 possible dealt diamond

royals)

so
=permut(52,10) = 5.74077E+16
your prng wouldn't have completed a full sequence since Bill Gates

was born.

=permut(52,5)=3.12E+08
A 1Ghz (1e9) clock would repeat the sequence 3 times a second.

I believe IGT stated that all cards were determined before the draw
button was pressed. Nothing was said about the algorithm used. This
has been discussed previously on this forum so you may want to check
the archives. I have no idea what algorithm is actually used but the
key requirement is randomness. For example, the PRNG output could be
used as an input parameter to shuffle a virual 52+ card deck instead
of being used as card selectors. The virtual deck would be constantly
changing until a button was pressed. My point is that there are many
ways to use a PRNG.

In addition, I doubt there were any 1Ghz PRNGs (the time to process
the entire algorithm) on original VP machines. Probably not any today.

Personally, I hope future VP machines eliminate the PRNG and replace
it with an "real" RNG chip that uses electronic noise as a basis.
Would it play any differently ... It might ...

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, g_bazuin@h... wrote:

#6

I'm familiar with the achieves and have seen the draw describe both ways.
You don't need to shuffle the whole deck, you only need to randomize the 1st
10 cards. And for a fair draw you would need all the possible permutations
of those 10 cards. The fastest way to get all the possible permutations is
to only have them happen once (which is what a PRNG does). If the PRNG
sequence is longer than the age of the earth then the PRNG will have
streaks. When people mention streaky PRNG's they get flamed, but the whole
theory of advantage VP is that the game is completely random. Computers
aren't completely random so the Emperor might not have no clothes, but he's
certainly in his underwear.
For a PRNG at 1Gz the example algorithm I gave would sequence that fast or
faster (my guess is that it would be at least 2x the fastest Pentium in the
same silicon technology), it would take longer to map the number to the
cards, but that would only have to be done for every button push.
Gary

Wrom: MBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGD

···

----- Original Message -----
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 8:05 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: RNG On RF's

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, g_bazuin@h... wrote:
> Now here's where I'm guessing, but I don't think that all 10 cards
are
> picked at once.
> The order of the cards matter (there are 120 possible dealt diamond
royals)
> so
> =permut(52,10) = 5.74077E+16
> your prng wouldn't have completed a full sequence since Bill Gates
was born.
> =permut(52,5)=3.12E+08
> A 1Ghz (1e9) clock would repeat the sequence 3 times a second.

I believe IGT stated that all cards were determined before the draw
button was pressed. Nothing was said about the algorithm used. This
has been discussed previously on this forum so you may want to check
the archives. I have no idea what algorithm is actually used but the
key requirement is randomness. For example, the PRNG output could be
used as an input parameter to shuffle a virual 52+ card deck instead
of being used as card selectors. The virtual deck would be constantly
changing until a button was pressed. My point is that there are many
ways to use a PRNG.

In addition, I doubt there were any 1Ghz PRNGs (the time to process
the entire algorithm) on original VP machines. Probably not any today.

Personally, I hope future VP machines eliminate the PRNG and replace
it with an "real" RNG chip that uses electronic noise as a basis.
Would it play any differently ... It might ...

Dick

vpFREE Links:
http://www.lvcm.com/tomesims/VP/Links.html

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#7

Is this really so? Its driving me crazy because my wife is driving me crazy with it.
   I live in Bensalem, Pa, north of Philadelphia, and my wife and I go to Atlantic City once a month or so, and to Vegas once or twice a year. I went to Bob Dancer's classes at Caesars last year, bought Win Poker, and we're doing better than we used to at the machines.
   Ever since we saw a show on Discovery a few years ago, where some slot executive said the card's keep shuffling until the draw button is pushed, Judy has gotten the idea that she has to push the draw button at the exact right second and get's upset when she doesn't get her card. Then she goes, "If I had only waited another half a second, I would've got the royal." Thank God it happens only when she needs one card for a royal or straight flush, or she'd drive me totally nuts with.
   If I can tell her that the TV program was wrong, it will make for much more relaxing VP sessions. I keep telling her the math is the same in either case, but she won't believe me.

Ned C.
The Wild Joker
rgmustain <rgmustain@att.net> wrote:I believe IGT stated that all cards were determined before the draw
button was pressed.

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#8

So your wife drives you nuts? Welcome to the club!

Matt

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: The Wild Joker
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 1:26 PM
  Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: RNG On RF's

  she'd drive me totally nuts with.
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#9

The PRNG is faster than that it's more like if you'd waited 0.500000001
seconds rather than 1/2 second.
Gary
Wrom: KMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUC

···

----- Original Message -----
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: RNG On RF's

   Is this really so? Its driving me crazy because my wife is driving me

crazy with it.

   I live in Bensalem, Pa, north of Philadelphia, and my wife and I go to

Atlantic City once a month or so, and to Vegas once or twice a year. I went
to Bob Dancer's classes at Caesars last year, bought Win Poker, and we're
doing better than we used to at the machines.

   Ever since we saw a show on Discovery a few years ago, where some slot

executive said the card's keep shuffling until the draw button is pushed,
Judy has gotten the idea that she has to push the draw button at the exact
right second and get's upset when she doesn't get her card. Then she goes,
"If I had only waited another half a second, I would've got the royal."
Thank God it happens only when she needs one card for a royal or straight
flush, or she'd drive me totally nuts with.

   If I can tell her that the TV program was wrong, it will make for much

more relaxing VP sessions. I keep telling her the math is the same in either
case, but she won't believe me.

Ned C.
The Wild Joker
rgmustain <rgmustain@att.net> wrote:I believe IGT stated that all cards

were determined before the draw

button was pressed.

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#10

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, The Wild Joker <jokerswild1203@y...>
wrote:

   Is this really so? Its driving me crazy because my wife is

driving me crazy with it.

   I live in Bensalem, Pa, north of Philadelphia, and my wife and I

go to Atlantic City once a month or so,

snip

Judy has gotten the idea that she has to push the draw button at the
exact right second and get's upset when she doesn't get her card.
Then she goes, "If I had only waited another half a second, I
would've got the royal." >

Ned C.

snip

Judy can console herself with the knowledge that it probably doesn't
matter either way. Unless she knows exactly when to press the "deal"
button in the first place, it's impossible to know the perfect
nanosecond to push the "draw" button. The timing question will
always be there, so it's not worth the effort of worrying about.

Marsha (just a few miles from you, in Warrington)

#11

I'm familiar with the achieves and have seen the draw describe both

ways.

Hey, the quote I'm referring to was by the IGT director of
development. So, if you're playing an IGT machine then I'd feel
pretty sure the whole thing was decided before the original deal.

You don't need to shuffle the whole deck, you only need to

randomize the 1st

10 cards.

I was only giving you an example of a possible way to implement a VP
machine. And, I think I said that randomness was the key requirement.

And for a fair draw you would need all the possible permutations
of those 10 cards. The fastest way to get all the possible

permutations is

to only have them happen once (which is what a PRNG does). If the

PRNG

sequence is longer than the age of the earth then the PRNG will have
streaks.

I still think you're complicating the whole process. You don't need
to even worry about all possible permutations if you ALGORITHM is
random. All possible hands are possible. Keep in mind that each
machine probably seeds it PRNG differently when powered up. There's
even been conjecture that it is reseeded at other times as well to
increase the randomness.

I see nothing wrong with the idea that a PRNG has streaks. In fact,
since higher variance VP games are normally considered to be more
addictive, and a streaky PRNG would tend to increase variance, it
would be to the manufacturers advantage for them to have streaks.
This would not make them illegal since the "long term" payback would
still be the same.

When people mention streaky PRNG's they get flamed, but the whole
theory of advantage VP is that the game is completely random.

Computers

aren't completely random so the Emperor might not have no clothes,

but he's

certainly in his underwear.

I think you and I differ on how the PRNG is designed. I think it's
simply software running in a common chip that only needs to be fast
enough to handle the VP application. This is not rocket science.

For a PRNG at 1Gz the example algorithm I gave would sequence that

fast or

faster (my guess is that it would be at least 2x the fastest

Pentium in the

same silicon technology), it would take longer to map the number to

the

cards, but that would only have to be done for every button push.

But it's probably not a separate silicon chip. So, the algorithm may
be 10's if not 1000's of instructions running on what may be a 50 Mhz
chip.

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, g_bazuin@h... wrote: