Last year I played over 1,000,000 hands at Barona thanks to 10 play
and over 10,000,000 at 100 play at Barona. Those are approaching long
run numbers. My returns have been close to expected.
RNG at Native Casinos
All of which is utterly irrelevant to the question of whether or not the games are
gaffable and in fact gaffed in some instances. There is no human alive who could
possibly answer this question through play alone...one individual could never play
anything approaching more than the tiniest fraction of the games out there, and I don't
know anyone claiming that all or even most of the modern IGT-type games are being
manipulated. That wasn't the issue at all.
And like I said, games such as the 100-plays you find in Nevada-reg locations from
reputable manufacturers are virtually sure to be fine. But I've found off-market games
on reservations that were either rigged or had player edges of 5% for even the worst
idiot vp fan (obviously the former)...you could see it on the "paytables".
brazo
···
--- cdandre12000 <cdandre12000@yahoo.com> wrote:
Last year I played over 1,000,000 hands at Barona thanks to 10 play
and over 10,000,000 at 100 play at Barona. Those are approaching long
run numbers. My returns have been close to expected.
"Last year I played over 1,000,000 hands at Barona thanks to 10 play
and over 10,000,000 at 100 play at Barona. Those are approaching
long run numbers. My returns have been close to expected."
Brazo replied with:
"All of which is utterly irrelevant to the question of whether or
not the games are gaffable and in fact gaffed in some instances.
There is no human alive who could possibly answer this question
through play alone...one individual could never play anything
approaching more than the tiniest fraction of the games out
there ...."
As a VP game inventor and VP Advantage Player, I completely disagree
with Brazo's comments. First, machines are generally tested on
10,000,000 hand cycles (or a fraction therefore). Second, because
of the concept of independence in that each new hand played is
random, an individual, through the power of observation, can test if
the game is honest or gaffed.
For example, I was playing this really weird Flush Fever game by an
unknown manufacturer (later certified by Gamings Lab). I collected
data on many key hands: STFL, Quads, Full House, Flush and Flush
Fever bonus, etc. Based on my records, as the hands observed
increased, all these hands converged to what the thereotical
distribution on both an absolute and relative basis, respectively.
The Flush accounts for 42.50% of the return and were being hit once
in ~40 hands. The average Flush Bonus also converged to ten units
as my number of observation increased. STFL's were being hit at
better than the 5,600 hand cycle 
···
--- In vpFREE_California@yahoogroups.com, b b <brazoraton@...> wrote:
--- cdandre12000 <cdandre12000@...> wrote:
As in astronomy, observation is all we have to go by in video poker, barring opening up the machine and analyzing the chip, or if an insider were to come out with proof that the machines were altered to cheat. The vpfree_online group has had similar discussions on this subject for determining if online sites cheat. Gathering results for paying hands over very long cycles from many different players should prove whether or not the game returns close to what it should. If the game is cheating but still pays the right number of royals, straight flushes, etc., then it's not cheating very well, is it? Admittedly it doesn't prove fairness, but gives a very strong argument for or against. That's my opinion, but I really appreciate the feedback on both sides and think both have valid points for consideration.
--- cdandre12000 <cdandre12000@...> wrote:
"Last year I played over 1,000,000 hands at Barona thanks to 10 play
and over 10,000,000 at 100 play at Barona. Those are approaching
long run numbers. My returns have been close to expected."
Brazo replied with:
"All of which is utterly irrelevant to the question of whether or
not the games are gaffable and in fact gaffed in some instances.
There is no human alive who could possibly answer this question
through play alone...one individual could never play anything
approaching more than the tiniest fraction of the games out
there ...."
As a VP game inventor and VP Advantage Player, I completely disagree
with Brazo's comments. First, machines are generally tested on
10,000,000 hand cycles (or a fraction therefore). Second, because
of the concept of independence in that each new hand played is
random, an individual, through the power of observation, can test if
the game is honest or gaffed.
For example, I was playing this really weird Flush Fever game by an
unknown manufacturer (later certified by Gamings Lab). I collected
data on many key hands: STFL, Quads, Full House, Flush and Flush
Fever bonus, etc. Based on my records, as the hands observed
increased, all these hands converged to what the thereotical
distribution on both an absolute and relative basis, respectively.
The Flush accounts for 42.50% of the return and were being hit once
in ~40 hands. The average Flush Bonus also converged to ten units
as my number of observation increased. STFL's were being hit at
better than the 5,600 hand cycle
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
SPONSORED LINKS
Online gambling Outdoor recreation Recreation software Gambling
···
fordscks <jason_c_vp@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In vpFREE_California@yahoogroups.com, b b <brazoraton@...> wrote:
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "vpFREE_California" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vpFREE_California-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This topic came up about 2 months ago, and I received an e-reply
from the videopoker.com website contact @Action Gaming.
This is interesting that they are partial to Barona, one of their
clients. In fact, on the website, it lists (in numbers) how
many "Action Gaming" licensed machines are at each Indian location.
Martin
"All of the Indian Casinos in California undergo rigorous testing by
GLI, the US's largest testing and approval lab for gaming. You are
playing games there with RNG's that operate just like in regular
casinos here in NV and need not be concerned. I personally like to
play at Barona and do so with some regularity.
Thanks for the inquiry.
Regards,
Mike Fields
Executive Vice President
--- In vpFREE_California@yahoogroups.com, vpfree2006
<vpfree2006@...> wrote:
As in astronomy, observation is all we have to go by in video
poker, barring opening up the machine and analyzing the chip, or if
an insider were to come out with proof that the machines were
altered to cheat. The vpfree_online group has had similar
discussions on this subject for determining if online sites cheat.
Gathering results for paying hands over very long cycles from many
different players should prove whether or not the game returns close
to what it should. If the game is cheating but still pays the right
number of royals, straight flushes, etc., then it's not cheating
very well, is it? Admittedly it doesn't prove fairness, but gives a
very strong argument for or against. That's my opinion, but I really
appreciate the feedback on both sides and think both have valid
points for consideration.
fordscks <jason_c_vp@...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE_California@yahoogroups.com, b b <brazoraton@>
wrote:
> --- cdandre12000 <cdandre12000@> wrote:
"Last year I played over 1,000,000 hands at Barona thanks to 10
play
and over 10,000,000 at 100 play at Barona. Those are approaching
long run numbers. My returns have been close to expected."Brazo replied with:
"All of which is utterly irrelevant to the question of whether or
not the games are gaffable and in fact gaffed in some instances.
There is no human alive who could possibly answer this question
through play alone...one individual could never play anything
approaching more than the tiniest fraction of the games out
there ...."As a VP game inventor and VP Advantage Player, I completely
disagree
with Brazo's comments. First, machines are generally tested on
10,000,000 hand cycles (or a fraction therefore). Second, because
of the concept of independence in that each new hand played is
random, an individual, through the power of observation, can test
if
the game is honest or gaffed.
For example, I was playing this really weird Flush Fever game by
an
unknown manufacturer (later certified by Gamings Lab). I
collected
data on many key hands: STFL, Quads, Full House, Flush and Flush
Fever bonus, etc. Based on my records, as the hands observed
increased, all these hands converged to what the thereotical
distribution on both an absolute and relative basis,
respectively.
The Flush accounts for 42.50% of the return and were being hit
once
···
in ~40 hands. The average Flush Bonus also converged to ten units
as my number of observation increased. STFL's were being hit at
better than the 5,600 hand cycle