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Refreshing information

#1

proofs of the existence or non-existence of the claimed valid systems
discussed might be useful here; or if there are no proofs, some references
where the matter is seriously considered. An Internet page or an article
where these things are discussed might be helpful ... <<<

Mathematical Proof that Progressions cannot overcome Expectation:

http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/progress/unfair.htm

···

"superquadfullhousroyalistic" <erchalb@cantv.net> wrote:

Often new ingredients might make a dispute richer. For example, some

#2

Reid makes no reference to anything other than table game type betting, and everything he references was considered when my strategies were developed. There has been no one who can accurately contest my Play Strategies and the fact that they do generate considerable profit year after year for me, other than the broken record that gently squeals "If it's a negative pay table then you can't win; You can win on positive pay tables only, and only if you play computer-perfectly".

vpFREE <vpFREE@Cox.net> wrote:Mathematical Proof that Progressions cannot overcome Expectation:

http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/progress/unfair.htm

···

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3

Reid makes no reference to anything other than table game type

betting, and everything he references was considered when my
strategies were developed.

Wrong. Read closer. His proof provides for uneven payoffs which is
exactly what VP provides over table games.

If you took so much into consideration, it should be easy for you to
provide a proof.

There has been no one who can accurately contest my Play Strategies

and the fact that they do generate considerable profit year after
year for me, other than the broken record that gently squeals "If
it's a negative pay table then you can't win; You can win on positive
pay tables only, and only if you play computer-perfectly".

I don't think anyone would ever say you can't win on negative games.
It happens all the time. The lottery is a perfect example, as are
slot machines, etc. The problem is you present your system like it
WILL payoff for every one and then provide no proof. To top that off
you attack the advantage play system (which is proven as a general
approach) with wild assertions that are inherently wrong.

Dick

vpFREE <vpFREE@C...> wrote:Mathematical Proof that Progressions

cannot overcome Expectation:

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Dan Cox <deadin7@y...> wrote:

http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/progress/unfair.htm

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

Wrong. Read closer. His proof provides for uneven payoffs which is
exactly what VP provides over table games.

Nope. Not correct. If you understand the alpha numeric symbols he
utilizes, you'll soon recognize the pattern relates only to
proportionately consecutive progressive bets in a negative situation,
and within a limit. The 'uneven bets' he refers to means BJ bonuses,
uneven craps odds, etc. That's almost 180 degrees opposite what video
poker betting is all about and offers in return.

If you took so much into consideration, it should be easy for you

to provide a proof.

I did. But there is no reason to provide it as a theory on paper when
my results are a far better barometer. I'll never live long enough
for what theory says should happen anyway.

you attack the advantage play system (which is proven as a general
approach) with wild assertions that are inherently wrong.

All you know is what your books tell you will happen throughout
infinity--an unrealistic approach for anything by a human if there
ever was one. What I know is that there are hundreds of so-called
former 'advantage players' who write me all the time and tell me "it
doesn't work", and I have my own past comprising of nearly 7 long
years that proved to me it does not work. Anyone who toots in here to
say it does is nothing more than a bit luckier than the others.

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@a...> wrote:

#5

...What I know is that there are hundreds of so-called
former 'advantage players' who write me all the time and tell me "it
doesn't work"...

Your tales get more and more unbelievable at a remarkable rate. The next
thing you know, we're going to hear you telling us President Bush wrote to
you about how his being an advantage player is going to be the cause of his
downfall.

···

From: deadin7 [mailto:dead…@…com]

#6

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@a...>

wrote:

> Wrong. Read closer. His proof provides for uneven payoffs which

is

> exactly what VP provides over table games.

Nope. Not correct. If you understand the alpha numeric symbols he
utilizes, you'll soon recognize the pattern relates only to
proportionately consecutive progressive bets in a negative

situation,

and within a limit. The 'uneven bets' he refers to means BJ

bonuses,

uneven craps odds, etc. That's almost 180 degrees opposite what

video

poker betting is all about and offers in return.

Nice try, but wrong. Where'd you get proportionately? You should
realize that VP could be played as a table game. You bet, the dealer
gives you your cards, you then draw and are paid accordingly. Not
unlike BJ except that the paybacks are uneven and your betting
against a fixed paytable instead of the dealer's hand.

>
> If you took so much into consideration, it should be easy for you
to provide a proof.

I did. But there is no reason to provide it as a theory on paper

when

my results are a far better barometer. I'll never live long enough
for what theory says should happen anyway.

Your results mean nothing. If you had a "real" system you would show
everyone the proof. Your never-ending denials are compelling evidence
you have no proof. Do you also sell a cure-all tonic water on the
side?

>
> you attack the advantage play system (which is proven as a

general

> approach) with wild assertions that are inherently wrong.

All you know is what your books tell you will happen throughout
infinity--an unrealistic approach for anything by a human if there
ever was one.

Like I've said before, advantage play IS a very human system. Words
are just symbols and you use just as many symbols to describe your
system. The only difference is advantage play is valid (proveable)
and yours is a fraud.

What I know is that there are hundreds of so-called
former 'advantage players' who write me all the time and tell

me "it

doesn't work",

I'm sure there are some who tried advantage play for a while and gave
up when they didn't see instantaneous results. In addition, advantage
play doesn't predict everyone will win either. So, given only 5
thousand Advantage gamblers, if even 10% lost, that would make
hundreds of players who thought it didn't work. Looks to me like your
statement just confirms the math after all.

In any event, advantage play is the best approach to maximize
anyone's chances of reaching their goals over the long term.

and I have my own past comprising of nearly 7 long
years that proved to me it does not work. Anyone who toots in here

to

say it does is nothing more than a bit luckier than the others.

Then you clearly don't understand advantage play.

Dick

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...> wrote:

#7

next thing you know, we're going to hear you telling us President
Bush wrote to you about how his being an advantage player is going to
be the cause of his downfall.

I deal with reality. The only thing Kerry has going for him is 2
pretty daughters--one of which allows her tongue to flap in the
breeze a bit too often. But Bush's twins are cuter than them both--
the type that Clinton (either one) would stop at nothing to get at.

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Randy C" <randyc@U...> wrote:

Your tales get more and more unbelievable at a remarkable rate. The

#8

Nice try, but wrong. Where'd you get proportionately? You should
realize that VP could be played as a table game. You bet, the

dealer gives you your cards, you then draw and are paid accordingly.
Not unlike BJ except that the paybacks are uneven and your betting
against a fixed paytable instead of the dealer's hand.

In BJ every bet increases as one loses. If I bet one coin then 2 then
4 then the equivalent of 8, 16, 24 etc. until I hit 2-pr or greater,
then THAT would be the same thing Reid talks about. And that's
exactly why I don't play that way.

Your results mean nothing.

That's a dumb statement. Tell that to my wife (our investment home in
Hawaii she bugged me about for years), my daughter (her new pool),
and my son (his new bike, new car, and downpayment on his new house).

If you had a "real" system you would show everyone the proof. Your
never-ending denials are compelling evidence you have no proof. Do
you also sell a cure-all tonic water on the side?

I don't need to sell anyone anything. Because of the proof in the
results. Why do you think your heroes Dancer and the Queen along with
the has-been gamblers I've mentioned, need to sell all that junk they
push?? Why do you think Dancer and the Queen NEED to shamelessly
promote themselves on foreign-registered video poker cruises? And why
do casinos pay them to speak their nonsense? All this stuff does is
support my position many times over.

Like I've said before, advantage play IS a very human system. Words
are just symbols and you use just as many symbols to describe your
system. The only difference is advantage play is valid (proveable)
and yours is a fraud.

So how is it proveable? Math proves nothing other than perfection
forever equals a tiny positive percentage on a positive machine--
totally unrealistic in many ways. How can you prove you or anyone
wins with that?

I'm sure there are some who tried advantage play for a while and

gave up when they didn't see instantaneous results.

More than likely, yes. It just means they lost less and didn't wait
around to get addicted.

In addition, advantage play doesn't predict everyone will win either.
So, given only 5 thousand Advantage gamblers, if even 10% lost, that
would make hundreds of players who thought it didn't work. Looks to
me like your statement just confirms the math after all.

The only measure that counts is results, not some stupid theory or
rambling on about math models. That's just wishful wannabee thinking
to support a habit they don't really want to be in.

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@a...> wrote:

#9

... snip incessant rambling

The only measure that counts is results, not some stupid theory or
rambling on about math models. That's just wishful wannabee

thinking

to support a habit they don't really want to be in.

OK, you ignored my question before about the lottery. There are many
lottery winners and they win substantially more than you'll ever win
playing VP. Does this imply that everyone who plays the lottery will
be successful? That's exactly equivalent to what you just said above.

Dick

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...> wrote:

#10

In BJ every bet increases as one loses. If I bet one coin then 2

then

4 then the equivalent of 8, 16, 24 etc. until I hit 2-pr or

greater,

then THAT would be the same thing Reid talks about. And that's
exactly why I don't play that way.

And where does Reid state this? He never states the bets must be
proportional. He defines b(k) as the size of the kth bet. Nothing
stated about b(k) = N*b(k-1) which is what you tried to state above.

Dick

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...> wrote:

#11

many lottery winners and they win substantially more than you'll ever
win playing VP. Does this imply that everyone who plays the lottery
will be successful? That's exactly equivalent to what you just said
above.

I don't care about nor play lotteries. That's for a class of folks
lower in pride than even mainstream video poker players, where
stopping at Taco Bell for dinner and pulling into Circle K for a 12-
pak along with a pack of cigarettes while gassing up with 5 bucks
isn't the same fix as it used to be anymore without getting a lottery
ticket along with it all.

A lottery winner goes for one big hit period. Few play it again. I do
it for a steady income, and there's only several possible big enough
hits that will allow me to attain my lifetime goal and quit playing
professionally ($100 RF, 10-play $25 dealt RF, $2 100-play dealt RF,
$25 5-play dealt RF, $2 50-play dealt RF, etc.) and I rarely play any
of them.

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@a...> wrote:

OK, you ignored my question before about the lottery. There are

#12

You must be in your glory reading all that nonsense over and over
again. What he said can be reasoned out through simple common sense
without all that geek-bait he used. What I do is prove through
consistent, successful play that with a combination of knowledgeable
play, the proper bankroll, goals, discipline to always do what you
said you were going to do, special plays, and progression in both
denomination and game volatility, negative games can and are beaten
at will. So show me where he says this CANNOT be done in video poker
using my exact play strategies. And even if you could find that which
you won't, it's just another geek-theory that pales in comparison to
actual play results.

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@a...> wrote:

And where does Reid state this? He never states the bets must be
proportional. He defines b(k) as the size of the kth bet. Nothing
stated about b(k) = N*b(k-1) which is what you tried to state above.

#13

I concur with RandyC. In spite of your comments to the contrary, I
can assure you that an advantage player can earn a living at video
poker and can amass wealth in addition.
Granted that not all can make that statement but there are enough that
can.

···

On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:15:32 -0700, you wrote:

From: deadin7 [mailto:dead…@…com]

...What I know is that there are hundreds of so-called
former 'advantage players' who write me all the time and tell me "it
doesn't work"...

Your tales get more and more unbelievable at a remarkable rate. The next
thing you know, we're going to hear you telling us President Bush wrote to
you about how his being an advantage player is going to be the cause of his
downfall.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#14

So you're actually saying that casinos are offering games where they
don't have the advantage? Bwhahahahaha! Good one.

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Elliott Shapiro <videopoker@m...>
wrote:

I concur with RandyC. In spite of your comments to the contrary, I
can assure you that an advantage player can earn a living at video
poker and can amass wealth in addition.

Really? Where are they, exactly? Where are the "advantage" players
who play strictly one denomination computer perfect strategy 100% of
the time 8 hours a day without having to hold down a real job, or
sell bogus video poker products, or sell out to casinos? All I ever
see everytime I see some poor sap using one of those stupid strategy
cards in a casino is his credit meter going down to zero.

Granted that not all can make that statement but there are enough

that

···

can.

#15

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Elliott Shapiro <videopoker@m...>
wrote:

I concur with RandyC. In spite of your comments to the contrary, I
can assure you that an advantage player can earn a living at video
poker and can amass wealth in addition.Granted that not all can

make that statement but there are enough that can.

Funny, I hear that all the time, but all the people who contact me
privately and are 'advantage players' say differently. And I can't
see ANYONE who isn't seriously addicted to gambling (in this case,
video poker) going out to casinos chasing casino promotions that
advertise a few percent "edge" here and there every day. I wonder
what your and Randy C's explanation is for the fact that the promos
are there for players like you and this 'group' of so-called
intelligent players, the casinos run them all the time all over town
just to rope you folks in, and they even pay Bob Dancer to explain
the whole system to others who eventually will end up like you.

No 'advantage' player earns a living at vp alone as I do. I challenge
anyone to come forward and meet with me to prove they do. You should
be smart enough to know the only edge in a casino always belongs to
the casino.

#16

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@a...>

wrote:

> And where does Reid state this? He never states the bets must be
> proportional. He defines b(k) as the size of the kth bet. Nothing
> stated about b(k) = N*b(k-1) which is what you tried to state

above.

You must be in your glory reading all that nonsense over and over
again. What he said can be reasoned out through simple common sense
without all that geek-bait he used. What I do is prove through
consistent, successful play that with a combination of

knowledgeable

play, the proper bankroll, goals, discipline to always do what you
said you were going to do, special plays, and progression in both
denomination and game volatility, negative games can and are beaten
at will. So show me where he says this CANNOT be done in video

poker

using my exact play strategies. And even if you could find that

which

you won't, it's just another geek-theory that pales in comparison

to

actual play results.

So, in other words you had know idea how to read the proof even
though you previously stated otherwise. Clearly demonstating, once
again, that you are a bold face liar.

Dick

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...> wrote:

#17

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@a...>

wrote:

> OK, you ignored my question before about the lottery. There are
many lottery winners and they win substantially more than you'll

ever

win playing VP. Does this imply that everyone who plays the lottery
will be successful? That's exactly equivalent to what you just said
above.

I don't care about nor play lotteries. That's for a class of folks
lower in pride than even mainstream video poker players, where
stopping at Taco Bell for dinner and pulling into Circle K for a 12-
pak along with a pack of cigarettes while gassing up with 5 bucks
isn't the same fix as it used to be anymore without getting a

lottery

ticket along with it all.

You're contradicting yourself AGAIN. First you say winning is the
only proof required that your system works, and now you say it's your
system and not winning. You can't have it both ways. If it isn't
winning then show us a proof. If it is winning then you must be a big
believer in the lottery.

This really shows you'll say anything to avoid a factual discussion
of VP.

Dick

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deadin7" <deadin7@y...> wrote:

#18

Last year (2003) was one of my worst, so my 3 year average only hit
$50,000 plus perks plus comps. I do NOT pay for gasoline or airline
tickets.
My credit meter also goes down but when I hit, it exceeds all of the
losses previously lost. This year plus $35,000 so far.
absolutely WITHOUT "special" plays which almost always go against the
established methods.
One of the regular "bigger" players ($5 when possible) accidently hit
the Wheel of Fortune for $11,000,000. He didn't get tp $5 play
without have won big previously.
By the way, I can produce well in excess of $1,000,000 inn w2's and
probably a net win in that vicinity in the last 15 or so years.
I can PROVE my statements and will be happy to bet that they are as I
say. Therefore, accept this or stop advocating stupid special plays.

···

On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:56:08 -0000, you wrote:

So you're actually saying that casinos are offering games where they
don't have the advantage? Bwhahahahaha! Good one.

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Elliott Shapiro <videopoker@m...>
wrote:

I concur with RandyC. In spite of your comments to the contrary, I
can assure you that an advantage player can earn a living at video
poker and can amass wealth in addition.

Really? Where are they, exactly? Where are the "advantage" players
who play strictly one denomination computer perfect strategy 100% of
the time 8 hours a day without having to hold down a real job, or
sell bogus video poker products, or sell out to casinos? All I ever
see everytime I see some poor sap using one of those stupid strategy
cards in a casino is his credit meter going down to zero.

Granted that not all can make that statement but there are enough

that

can.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#19

Yesterday I played at a casino with a small progressive 8/5 Bonus at
$2100 plus slot club points.
The "cost" is $1400.
You should lose the $1400 before you hit the $2100. If you do this
often enough, that is the result. The casino has the edge in that
they are only adding 0.5% to the meter and the underlying game is not
wonderful and the players PLAY IMPROPERLY.
If you play correctly, and often enough, the above WILL happen. It
has been thus for me for the last 15 years. I have lost millions, but
have won millions plus. I can prove this and if you want to make a
small $10,000 wager, I will be happy to take your money.

···

On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:10:30 -0000, you wrote:

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Elliott Shapiro <videopoker@m...>
wrote:

I concur with RandyC. In spite of your comments to the contrary, I
can assure you that an advantage player can earn a living at video
poker and can amass wealth in addition.Granted that not all can

make that statement but there are enough that can.

Funny, I hear that all the time, but all the people who contact me
privately and are 'advantage players' say differently. And I can't
see ANYONE who isn't seriously addicted to gambling (in this case,
video poker) going out to casinos chasing casino promotions that
advertise a few percent "edge" here and there every day. I wonder
what your and Randy C's explanation is for the fact that the promos
are there for players like you and this 'group' of so-called
intelligent players, the casinos run them all the time all over town
just to rope you folks in, and they even pay Bob Dancer to explain
the whole system to others who eventually will end up like you.

No 'advantage' player earns a living at vp alone as I do. I challenge
anyone to come forward and meet with me to prove they do. You should
be smart enough to know the only edge in a casino always belongs to
the casino.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#20

You don't say:

1. If you stay at one denomination the whole time, or progress,
    and at what denomination you play if you do not progress. If
you play less than $5 then you must spend every waking hour
playing, and 7 months into the year to be only +35k is hardly time
well spent in my opinion, unless of course you are already rich &
retired.

2. How long or often you play, what you goals are, what your
    bankroll is, etc.

If what you say is true, and you say "when you hit it exceeds all of
the losses previously lost", then the MATH tells me you are
PROGRESSING IN DENOMINATION during your sessions. Otherwise it would
not be possible for you to keep ahead.

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Elliott Shapiro <videopoker@m...>
wrote:

Last year (2003) was one of my worst, so my 3 year average only hit
$50,000 plus perks plus comps. I do NOT pay for gasoline or airline
tickets.
My credit meter also goes down but when I hit, it exceeds all of the
losses previously lost. This year plus $35,000 so far.
absolutely WITHOUT "special" plays which almost always go against

the

established methods.
One of the regular "bigger" players ($5 when possible) accidently

hit

the Wheel of Fortune for $11,000,000. He didn't get tp $5 play
without have won big previously.
By the way, I can produce well in excess of $1,000,000 inn w2's and
probably a net win in that vicinity in the last 15 or so years.
I can PROVE my statements and will be happy to bet that they are as

I

···

say.