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Reality Check

#1

In a message dated 6/23/2008 1:43:56 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
kitchat123@aol.com writes:

o my question is this. Is it possible for casinos to alter the machines in
such a way that
they have fewer payouts, without changing the paytables? Just to be clear, I
am not asking
if it seems likely. I am sure there are many reasons why it would seem
unlikely. I simply
want to know if it is POSSIBLE.

I have friends who owned an out-of-state casino and I asked them that same
question. Their answer was an unqualified YES.

Karen

"She was not quite what you would call refined. She was not quite what you
would call unrefined. She was the kind of person that keeps a parrot."
- Mark Twain

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

kitchat123@... writes:

Is it possible for casinos to alter the machines in
such a way that they have fewer payouts, without
changing the paytables? Just to be clear, I am not
asking if it seems likely. I am sure there are many
reasons why it would seem unlikely. I simply
want to know if it is POSSIBLE.

It is possible and has happened a couple of times.

Check out the book, "Liscense to steal: Nevada's gaming control system
in the megaresort age" by Jeff Burbank or

http://www.americancasinoguide.com/Tips/Slots-Honest.shtml

#3

This is all very interesting. Reading the American Casino Guide
article linked below, it appears that the Gaming Commissions of the
states of Nevada and New Jersey employ firmware specialists whose
principal job is to go into casinos, and demand to inspect the
firmware of slot (and VP?) machines, to ensure that they have not been
surreptitiously swapped. The very fact that these precautions are
being vigorously taken *suggests a real danger in situations where
they are not.*

As a retired firmware engineer, I realize how relatively easy it would
be for an engineer with experience in such devices to come up with
hacked firmware that would preserve the complete "look and feel" of
the original game, but with whatever changes are desired in the
outcome. Such an imposture would be all but impossible to detect
unless one could inspect the firmware, and compare it with a known
original. I have never worked on gaming devices, but I have modified,
programmed, and swapped out hundreds if not thousands of EPROMs in my
career. Anyone with a basic knowledge of programming can learn to do it.

In every movie about jewel heists, there is a character along the
lines of "Lefty Louie, just out of jail, the greatest safecracker in
all Europe!" Now imagine, "Lefty Louie, the greatest gaming machine
cracker and hacker west of the Rockies!" The only tools Lefty Louie
will need is a PC and an EPROM burner, costing at most a few hundred
dollars. Assume that Louie is not a law-abiding citizen, and has
contacts in organized crime, who will put him in touch with
unscrupulous casino operators, for a fee. The operator hires Lefty
Louie as a "technical consultant" to occasionally service and maintain
its machines. This involves taking machines into the back, and
swapping out good firmware for hacked versions, which after testing
are returned to the casino floor. Only the crooked operator, and
Louie, know what is going on. *Such a scenario is precisely what the
state gaming commissions are attempting to guard against.*

Any casino in Nevada or New Jersey attempting this runs a very serious
risk of detection, and thus ruin. Now consider the Indian Casinos we
have here in California, and other states. These casinos are
answerable only to the National Indian Gaming Commission. This
Commission, in turn, requires that each "Indian tribe will have the
sole propriety interest and responsibility for the conduct of any
gaming activity." In other words, the Indian casinos regulate
themselves. In such a situation, it is reasonable to consider the
possibility that Lefty Louie may have gotten his hands into the firmware.

My own personal experience is that the VP machines in many Indian
casinos do not "play" the same way as ones in Nevada. Even if I end up
playing a 98% machine in a place like the Bellagio or the Wynn, it's
not a slam-dunk that the machine will win. I have walked away from
such machines with significantly more than I put in. But playing a 97%
or 99% machine California Indian casinos, however, it is nearly always
a slam-dunk, and always for the machine. Lower, lower, lower, gone.
Yes, I know about randomness and such, hot streaks and cold streaks,
and all the rest. But in view of my experiences and the facts
presented above, I seriously suspect that Lefty Louie may have gotten
his fingers inside some of those machines.

     Robert

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "worldbefree22001" <krajewski.sa@...>
wrote:

···

> kitchat123@ writes:
>
> Is it possible for casinos to alter the machines in
> such a way that they have fewer payouts, without
> changing the paytables? Just to be clear, I am not
> asking if it seems likely. I am sure there are many
> reasons why it would seem unlikely. I simply
> want to know if it is POSSIBLE.
>
>

It is possible and has happened a couple of times.

Check out the book, "Liscense to steal: Nevada's gaming control system
in the megaresort age" by Jeff Burbank or

http://www.americancasinoguide.com/Tips/Slots-Honest.shtml

#4

Again, paranoia is fun for the whole family. Machines in every jurisdiction in the US are routinely inspected by regulators. There are seals and identifiers that can quickly show whether there has been any tampering. If a single casino was detected, the business would disappear. Small, ma & pop bars might (and have) considered the risk worth while. NO large casino operation ever would.

···

At 12:31 PM 6/24/2008, you wrote:

This is all very interesting. Reading the American Casino Guide
article linked below, it appears that the Gaming Commissions of the
states of Nevada and New Jersey employ firmware specialists whose
principal job is to go into casinos, and demand to inspect the
firmware of slot (and VP?) machines, to ensure that they have not been
surreptitiously swapped. The very fact that these precautions are
being vigorously taken *suggests a real danger in situations where
they are not.*

As a retired firmware engineer, I realize how relatively easy it would
be for an engineer with experience in such devices to come up with
hacked firmware that would preserve the complete "look and feel" of
the original game, but with whatever changes are desired in the
outcome. Such an imposture would be all but impossible to detect
unless one could inspect the firmware, and compare it with a known
original. I have never worked on gaming devices, but I have modified,
programmed, and swapped out hundreds if not thousands of EPROMs in my
career. Anyone with a basic knowledge of programming can learn to do it.

In every movie about jewel heists, there is a character along the
lines of "Lefty Louie, just out of jail, the greatest safecracker in
all Europe!" Now imagine, "Lefty Louie, the greatest gaming machine
cracker and hacker west of the Rockies!" The only tools Lefty Louie
will need is a PC and an EPROM burner, costing at most a few hundred
dollars. Assume that Louie is not a law-abiding citizen, and has
contacts in organized crime, who will put him in touch with
unscrupulous casino operators, for a fee. The operator hires Lefty
Louie as a "technical consultant" to occasionally service and maintain
its machines. This involves taking machines into the back, and
swapping out good firmware for hacked versions, which after testing
are returned to the casino floor. Only the crooked operator, and
Louie, know what is going on. *Such a scenario is precisely what the
state gaming commissions are attempting to guard against.*

Any casino in Nevada or New Jersey attempting this runs a very serious
risk of detection, and thus ruin. Now consider the Indian Casinos we
have here in California, and other states. These casinos are
answerable only to the National Indian Gaming Commission. This
Commission, in turn, requires that each "Indian tribe will have the
sole propriety interest and responsibility for the conduct of any
gaming activity." In other words, the Indian casinos regulate
themselves. In such a situation, it is reasonable to consider the
possibility that Lefty Louie may have gotten his hands into the firmware.

My own personal experience is that the VP machines in many Indian
casinos do not "play" the same way as ones in Nevada. Even if I end up
playing a 98% machine in a place like the Bellagio or the Wynn, it's
not a slam-dunk that the machine will win. I have walked away from
such machines with significantly more than I put in. But playing a 97%
or 99% machine California Indian casinos, however, it is nearly always
a slam-dunk, and always for the machine. Lower, lower, lower, gone.
Yes, I know about randomness and such, hot streaks and cold streaks,
and all the rest. But in view of my experiences and the facts
presented above, I seriously suspect that Lefty Louie may have gotten
his fingers inside some of those machines.

     Robert

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "worldbefree22001" <krajewski.sa@...>
wrote:
>
> > kitchat123@ writes:
> >
> > Is it possible for casinos to alter the machines in
> > such a way that they have fewer payouts, without
> > changing the paytables? Just to be clear, I am not
> > asking if it seems likely. I am sure there are many
> > reasons why it would seem unlikely. I simply
> > want to know if it is POSSIBLE.
> >
>
> It is possible and has happened a couple of times.
>
> Check out the book, "Liscense to steal: Nevada's gaming control system
> in the megaresort age" by Jeff Burbank or
>
> http://www.americancasinoguide.com/Tips/Slots-Honest.shtml
>

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#5

Every EEprom I have worked with has a checksum number to verify it's accuracy. The checksum is a running total of the program bits, changing one line of the code would change its checksum.

Also, if you have the original program stored in your laptop, verification is a snap and I sure hope that anyone from the Gaming Commission would have this data.

As for Indian Casinos, I have heard too many horror stories of someone hitting "the big one" only to be told that the machine malfunctioned. Also, paying a $0.50/hand vig to sit at a blackjack table is not appealing. I live in DFW and haven't visited any of the Oklahoma casinos for these reason. I'd rather go to LV and see what my money has built.

Chetkl

···

-

This is all very interesting. Reading the American Casino Guide

article linked below, it appears that the Gaming Commissions of the

states of Nevada and New Jersey employ firmware specialists whose

principal job is to go into casinos, and demand to inspect the

firmware of slot (and VP?) machines, to ensure that they have not been

surreptitiously swapped. The very fact that these precautions are

being vigorously taken *suggests a real danger in situations where

they are not.*

As a retired firmware engineer, I realize how relatively easy it would

be for an engineer with experience in such devices to come up with

hacked firmware that would preserve the complete "look and feel" of

the original game, but with whatever changes are desired in the

outcome. Such an imposture would be all but impossible to detect

unless one could inspect the firmware, and compare it with a known

original. I have never worked on gaming devices, but I have modified,

programmed, and swapped out hundreds if not thousands of EPROMs in my

career. Anyone with a basic knowledge of programming can learn to do it.

_._,___
  
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

Bill Coleman wrote:

···

Again, paranoia is fun for the whole family. Machines in every
jurisdiction in the US are routinely inspected by regulators. There
are seals and identifiers that can quickly show whether there has
been any tampering. If a single casino was detected, the business
would disappear. Small, ma & pop bars might (and have) considered the
risk worth while. NO large casino operation ever would.

----------
Not every jurisdiction has testing even approaching that of New Jersey and Nevada. And without public auditing, all those seals do not amount to much.

#7

And in the case of Indian casinos, exactly who are these "regulators"
who perform "inspections"? And what "jusridiction" do they work for?
The state or county play no role here.

Refer back to the part about the tribe having sole responsibility for
the gaming therein. Exactly who is supposedly doing the "inspecting,"
and to whom do they report? Hint: probably "the Council of Tribal Elders."

      Robert

P.S.: On the matter of EPROM checksums - yes, a hacked EPROM will have
a different checksum than the original one. And exactly who is going
to yank out the EPROM from the VP machine and compare its checksum to
that of the original?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

Again, paranoia is fun for the whole family. Machines in every
jurisdiction in the US are routinely inspected by regulators. There
are seals and identifiers that can quickly show whether there has
been any tampering. If a single casino was detected, the business
would disappear. Small, ma & pop bars might (and have) considered the
risk worth while. NO large casino operation ever would.

#8

the same way that the securities industry is "self-regulated", with
oversight from that wonderful federal instititution, the SEC, to boldy
say that no major corporation would risk their license is naive.
First off it's usually some indivual or group of rogue employees that
decide to cheat, and that it's worth it to them.
the second reason i think that it's possible )and probably had
happened) is that i have seen some strange things inside casinos and
pointed them out to the governing body, only to be looked at like i
had 3 heads. For instance in a NJ casino in the last 4 years, i was
looking at paytables and found a very interesting machine in the
middle of some 8/5 and 9/6 JB machines it had no denomination markings
on the body or on the screen, and had no paytable displayed in either
place. The absolutley funniest thing was the guy who was playing it. I
asked him if he was playing a dollar machine or a quarter machine- his
answer dollar. i said how much do you get for 4 of a kind he said 125
coins, i asked how he knew this - his answer was - all the machines
are the same. I went to the CCC booth on the floor and told the
"inspector" the problem with the machine, and even had the machine's
number written down. He said- what do you want me to do?, i said
either make it show a paytable and denom or shut it down.

It's experiences like that that make me believe cheating is possible
and has probably happended in a major casino in NV and/or NJ (let
alone CT or some other loosely regulated indian casino)
Rmember when the venetian fixed a few drawings to make sure a high
roller/rollers won? where did those 3 employees end up? one went to an
indian casino in arizona, and 1 went ot an indian casino in NM.
Yeah self-regulation with the NIGC overseeing works well....

Again, paranoia is fun for the whole family. Machines in every
jurisdiction in the US are routinely inspected by regulators. There
are seals and identifiers that can quickly show whether there has
been any tampering. If a single casino was detected, the business
would disappear. Small, ma & pop bars might (and have) considered the
risk worth while. NO large casino operation ever would.

>This is all very interesting. Reading the American Casino Guide
>article linked below, it appears that the Gaming Commissions of the
>states of Nevada and New Jersey employ firmware specialists whose
>principal job is to go into casinos, and demand to inspect the
>firmware of slot (and VP?) machines, to ensure that they have not been
>surreptitiously swapped. The very fact that these precautions are
>being vigorously taken *suggests a real danger in situations where
>they are not.*
>
>As a retired firmware engineer, I realize how relatively easy it would
>be for an engineer with experience in such devices to come up with
>hacked firmware that would preserve the complete "look and feel" of
>the original game, but with whatever changes are desired in the
>outcome. Such an imposture would be all but impossible to detect
>unless one could inspect the firmware, and compare it with a known
>original. I have never worked on gaming devices, but I have modified,
>programmed, and swapped out hundreds if not thousands of EPROMs in my
>career. Anyone with a basic knowledge of programming can learn to

do it.

>
>In every movie about jewel heists, there is a character along the
>lines of "Lefty Louie, just out of jail, the greatest safecracker in
>all Europe!" Now imagine, "Lefty Louie, the greatest gaming machine
>cracker and hacker west of the Rockies!" The only tools Lefty Louie
>will need is a PC and an EPROM burner, costing at most a few hundred
>dollars. Assume that Louie is not a law-abiding citizen, and has
>contacts in organized crime, who will put him in touch with
>unscrupulous casino operators, for a fee. The operator hires Lefty
>Louie as a "technical consultant" to occasionally service and maintain
>its machines. This involves taking machines into the back, and
>swapping out good firmware for hacked versions, which after testing
>are returned to the casino floor. Only the crooked operator, and
>Louie, know what is going on. *Such a scenario is precisely what the
>state gaming commissions are attempting to guard against.*
>
>Any casino in Nevada or New Jersey attempting this runs a very serious
>risk of detection, and thus ruin. Now consider the Indian Casinos we
>have here in California, and other states. These casinos are
>answerable only to the National Indian Gaming Commission. This
>Commission, in turn, requires that each "Indian tribe will have the
>sole propriety interest and responsibility for the conduct of any
>gaming activity." In other words, the Indian casinos regulate
>themselves. In such a situation, it is reasonable to consider the
>possibility that Lefty Louie may have gotten his hands into the

firmware.

>
>My own personal experience is that the VP machines in many Indian
>casinos do not "play" the same way as ones in Nevada. Even if I end up
>playing a 98% machine in a place like the Bellagio or the Wynn, it's
>not a slam-dunk that the machine will win. I have walked away from
>such machines with significantly more than I put in. But playing a 97%
>or 99% machine California Indian casinos, however, it is nearly always
>a slam-dunk, and always for the machine. Lower, lower, lower, gone.
>Yes, I know about randomness and such, hot streaks and cold streaks,
>and all the rest. But in view of my experiences and the facts
>presented above, I seriously suspect that Lefty Louie may have gotten
>his fingers inside some of those machines.
>
> Robert
>
>--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "worldbefree22001" <krajewski.sa@>
>wrote:
> >
> > > kitchat123@ writes:
> > >
> > > Is it possible for casinos to alter the machines in
> > > such a way that they have fewer payouts, without
> > > changing the paytables? Just to be clear, I am not
> > > asking if it seems likely. I am sure there are many
> > > reasons why it would seem unlikely. I simply
> > > want to know if it is POSSIBLE.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > It is possible and has happened a couple of times.
> >
> > Check out the book, "Liscense to steal: Nevada's gaming control

system

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

At 12:31 PM 6/24/2008, you wrote:
> > in the megaresort age" by Jeff Burbank or
> >
> > http://www.americancasinoguide.com/Tips/Slots-Honest.shtml
> >
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

#9

Yes, you are correct. Mohegan Sun's gaming commission reports to their Tribal Council. As I
said earlier, self-regulation means no regulation in my book.

Cathy B.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tenore_s" <tenore_s@...> wrote:

Refer back to the part about the tribe having sole responsibility for
the gaming therein. Exactly who is supposedly doing the "inspecting,"
and to whom do they report? Hint: probably "the Council of Tribal Elders."

#10

Bill Coleman wrote:
>
> Again, paranoia is fun for the whole family. Machines in every
> jurisdiction in the US are routinely inspected by regulators.

There

> are seals and identifiers that can quickly show whether there has
> been any tampering. If a single casino was detected, the business
> would disappear. Small, ma & pop bars might (and have) considered

the

> risk worth while. NO large casino operation ever would.

Bill,

I am probably starting a long thread but how do you or I know that
machines in every jurisdiction in the US are routinely inspected by
regulators?

That's a pretty big statement. I have never seen any public record of
when machines are inspected, how many or how often or what is
actually inspected.

I'm not saying machines are not fair but I have never seen any real
proof that they are monitored.

The few experiences I have had with the Michigan Gaming Control Board
don't give me much confidence that they are an advocate of the
player.

#11

"The few experiences I have had with the Michigan Gaming Control Board don't give me much confidence that they are an advocate of the player. "

In my experience with the Michigan Gaming Control Board, I was told directly that they are not an advocate for the player and do not want to interact with players which is a little different from Gaming Control's position in other states. I was told their only responsibility is to make sure that the proper amount of tax revenue is paid.

http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=earncashback

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]