vpFREE2 Forums

Reality Check

#21

This is the last time I'll respond. They DO NOT make the rules nor do they govern themselves. Since the only answer you will accept is "you're right -- they are criminals trying to rob you. Don't play there!"

If you cannot understand the real answer I have given you several times (three levels of regulation and the fact that what you suggest is absolutely illegal) perhaps you shouldn't risk money in a casino. Anywhere! Especially not here in Nevada.

···

At 03:32 PM 6/25/2008, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:
>
> If you people are afraid that someone is trying to cheat you of a
> tiny amount of money, DON"T PLAY!

I usually play 4 or 5 sessions a month at Mohegan Sun. Since my win rate has dropped to
19% over the past 6 months, that means I usually leave about $2,000 there each month. I
do not consider that a tiny amount of money and I think anyone would be foolish NOT to
have a healthy amount of curiosity about the matter in this case.
>
> I won't repeat the arguments why it is inconceivable that the 2
> largest casinos in the WORLD would want to cheat. They certainly
> don't NEED to (see their SEC reports).

I don't know about Foxwoods, but back in February, The Mohegan Sun casino said its slot
revenues plunged almost 10%in December, devastated by a free-play promotion at rival
Foxwoods. Mohegan Sun saw first quarter income fall more than 23%, down almost $17
million. The biggest impact was to the casino's slot revenues, which were down 9%. So I
would not be too surprised if some kind of "corrective action" might be taken.

And I am not suggesting they are "cheating". I am merely trying to understand if it would
be considered legal to alter the payouts, since it seems they make the rules and govern
themselves.

Cathy B.

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#22

Cathy B. wrote:

>I usually play 4 or 5 sessions a month at Mohegan Sun. Since my win
>rate has dropped to 19% over the past 6 months, that means I usually
>leave about $2,000 there each month. I do not consider that a tiny
>amount of money and I think anyone would be foolish NOT to
>have a healthy amount of curiosity about the matter in this case ...
>
>And I am not suggesting they are "cheating". I am merely trying to
>understand if it would be considered legal to alter the payouts,
>since it seems they make the rules and govern themselves.

Cathy, I understand the frustrations that arise during a sustained
losing streak. But vp is notably streaky when it comes to high paying
hands such as quads and above. I find it entirely plausible and
likely that this explains your recent poor results.

Bill Coleman has expressed why it's extraordinary unlikely you'd
encounter gaffed machines, and indicated that any alteration of
probabilities would be strictly illegal. But that doesn't make it an
impossibility, just a great improbability.

Ultimately, you have little choice to either accept your run as solely
a consequence of ill fortune ... and decide if you want to continue to
be subject to such uncertainties in your play, or believe that there
is a possibility that the machines are tampered with -- in which case
the only prudent choice is to quit play there.

- Harry

#23

LOL!

···

On 6/25/08, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@cox.net> wrote:

This is the last time I'll respond.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#24

If you people are afraid that someone is trying to cheat you of a
tiny amount of money, DON"T PLAY!

But don't pass a bunch of ignorance as information.

Conn. casinos are regulated by:
         1. The Federal govt.
         2. The Conn Department of Revenue
         3. The Tribal Govt (don't scoff, self-regulation can be

effective).

         4. Indirectly, the SEC (Tribal financial statements are
publicly filed and retrievable).

I won't repeat the arguments why it is inconceivable that the 2
largest casinos in the WORLD would want to cheat. They certainly
don't NEED to (see their SEC reports).

To change the programming, you would need a number of people
involved. It is well known that 3 people can't keep a secret. It
would certainly get out.

Moderator, please move this foolish discussion off vpFREE. Newbies
might actually believe that the industry cheats.

Bill, all I was asking for is a little info on how the regulating
bodies do their job. If you to call that ignorance, then I am
ignorant.

As for 3 people keeping a secret, if they do keep a secret, how would
we ever know?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

#25

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "johnnyzee48127" <greeklandjohnny@...>
wrote:

>
> If you people are afraid that someone is trying to cheat you of a
> tiny amount of money, DON"T PLAY!
>
> But don't pass a bunch of ignorance as information.
>
> Conn. casinos are regulated by:
> 1. The Federal govt.
> 2. The Conn Department of Revenue
> 3. The Tribal Govt (don't scoff, self-regulation can be
effective).
> 4. Indirectly, the SEC (Tribal financial statements are
> publicly filed and retrievable).
>
> I won't repeat the arguments why it is inconceivable that the 2
> largest casinos in the WORLD would want to cheat. They certainly
> don't NEED to (see their SEC reports).
>
> To change the programming, you would need a number of people
> involved. It is well known that 3 people can't keep a secret. It
> would certainly get out.
>
> Moderator, please move this foolish discussion off vpFREE. Newbies
> might actually believe that the industry cheats.
>

Bill, all I was asking for is a little info on how the regulating
bodies do their job. If you to call that ignorance, then I am
ignorant.

As for 3 people keeping a secret, if they do keep a secret, how would
we ever know?

As a newbe here, I am not the only one suspicious of the Indian
gaming casinos. I frequent the Pala casino in California and I see
the regular slots practically suck the sleeve right off from your arm.
And then moving on to the VP games most all the the pay tables are
really pitiful. I am wondering whose advocate Mr. Colman really is,
and if maybe his nick name may be Chief Coleman or Waam Paam Coleman?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@> wrote:

#26

  I am wondering whose advocate Mr. Colman really is,

and if maybe his nick name may be Chief Coleman or Waam Paam Coleman?

LOL! I was thinking the same thing. The man doth protest too much, me thinks.

And as for telling me that perhaps I should not risk my money in a casino anywhere,
especially not in Nevada, I will decide where and when to risk my money, be it in a casino or
anywhere else. Hope that is okay with you, Bill.

Cathy B.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Moyer" <rdmmoyer@...> wrote:

#27

If you are trying to be funny at least don't spell my name wrong.

I have long advocated a symbiotic relationship between casinos and customers. We both need each other. Too many casino executives are idiots who cannot properly run their businesses and aren't interested in discovering how to compete and make more money.

At the same time there are many customers who believe the most ridiculous, illogical and idiotic myths about the casinos. I have spent several years posting provable facts to this list in the hope of debunking some of the myths and paranoia that circulates about the industry. Facts, not opinions, not rumors, not something a slot tech told me in confidence. Researched, provable facts.

But for many of you it's too much fun to believe that the bad runs experienced (which the math says we all have to have) aren't due to random fluctuations but to someone trying to mess with us.

Except for the smallest, most isolated Indian casinos you are actually much more secure playing in a Native casino than in many commercial properties. They are subject to much more regulation than in most states. I think it's really pathetic that you folks are worrying about California and Connecticut. There's more chance that games at Bellagio are rigged than in either state.

But as I said, if you prefer to be paranoid or are unable to use whatever brains God gave you make sure you don't gamble in any Indian, Riverboat or land-based casino in the US.

···

At 06:58 PM 6/25/2008, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "johnnyzee48127" <greeklandjohnny@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@> wrote:
> >
> > If you people are afraid that someone is trying to cheat you of a
> > tiny amount of money, DON"T PLAY!
> >
> > But don't pass a bunch of ignorance as information.
> >
> > Conn. casinos are regulated by:
> > 1. The Federal govt.
> > 2. The Conn Department of Revenue
> > 3. The Tribal Govt (don't scoff, self-regulation can be
> effective).
> > 4. Indirectly, the SEC (Tribal financial statements are
> > publicly filed and retrievable).
> >
> > I won't repeat the arguments why it is inconceivable that the 2
> > largest casinos in the WORLD would want to cheat. They certainly
> > don't NEED to (see their SEC reports).
> >
> > To change the programming, you would need a number of people
> > involved. It is well known that 3 people can't keep a secret. It
> > would certainly get out.
> >
> > Moderator, please move this foolish discussion off vpFREE. Newbies
> > might actually believe that the industry cheats.
> >
>
> Bill, all I was asking for is a little info on how the regulating
> bodies do their job. If you to call that ignorance, then I am
> ignorant.
>
> As for 3 people keeping a secret, if they do keep a secret, how would
> we ever know?

>
As a newbe here, I am not the only one suspicious of the Indian
gaming casinos. I frequent the Pala casino in California and I see
the regular slots practically suck the sleeve right off from your arm.
And then moving on to the VP games most all the the pay tables are
really pitiful. I am wondering whose advocate Mr. Colman really is,
and if maybe his nick name may be Chief Coleman or Waam Paam Coleman?

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#28

Bill Coleman wrote:

If you people are afraid that someone is trying to cheat you of a
tiny amount of money, DON"T PLAY!

But don't pass a bunch of ignorance as information.

Conn. casinos are regulated by:
1. The Federal govt.
2. The Conn Department of Revenue
3. The Tribal Govt (don't scoff, self-regulation can be effective).
4. Indirectly, the SEC (Tribal financial statements are
publicly filed and retrievable).

OK, if a "bunch of ignorance" is the problem, can anyone post here precisely how any of the four entities "regulate" casinos and where their reports can be found?

···

_

#29

Bill Coleman wrote:

This is the last time I'll respond. They DO NOT make the rules nor do
they govern themselves.

If this is the last response on this thread, that leaves open the huge question of just who does "make the rules" and who "governs" them.

···

.

#30

You didn't reply to my earlier question about *exactly who* is doing
any "inspections" in the California Indian casinos. There is no
California state or county-level gaming commission. There is a federal
Indian Gaming Commission, but its sole interest is to see that Indians
alone are running the show. They state quite specifically that the
tribes themselves are fully responsible for running, and regulating,
the games. Are you claiming that the Tribal Elders regularly send out
firmware inspectors to their casinos? If not, then who is allegedly
doing this?

Recall from the earlier-linked article in the American Casino Guide
about the how the state gaming commissions of NV and NJ regularly send
inspectors out to look for machines whose firmware might have been
rigged. If the idea of a casino rigging machine firmware is
preposterous, why does the state regularly inspect machines for such
tampering?

If you cannot name any independent authority that is actually
performing such inspections in the Indian casinos, we must conclude
that the answer is "no one." And thus there is no reason to trust
their machines.

     Robert

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

Except for the smallest, most isolated Indian casinos you are
actually much more secure playing in a Native casino than in many
commercial properties. They are subject to much more regulation than
in most states. I think it's really pathetic that you folks are
worrying about California and Connecticut. There's more chance that
games at Bellagio are rigged than in either state.

#31

When I was doing some research online, I came across an article from The Hartford
Courant from February of 2006 which explains a little about the role of the State Division
of Special Revenue. The article was reprinted on a Native News website. I will include the
link below. But, in a nutshell, the state Division of Special Revenue assures that the state
receives 25 percent of all slots revenue from the Indian Casinos in CT. The executive
director at the Division of Special Revenue explains that because the tribes are a sovereign
nation and that they do have certain rights, the Division can regulate only what they have
the authority to regulate.

Again, not too comforting, especially combined with the fact that the gaming commission
reports to the Mohegan Tribal Council.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NatNews/message/41421

Cathy B.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, MHS <mspevack@...> wrote:

OK, if a "bunch of ignorance" is the problem, can anyone post here
precisely how any of the four entities "regulate" casinos and where
their reports can be found?
> _

#32

In CT there is a special "casino unit" of the state police that operates "under cover" in both
casinos. Yes, they've been caught gambling (with the states money and keeping the profit
for themselves) and drunk at the casinos they monitor, and allegedly they have been
involved in prostitution, drug trafficking, money laundering and cheating. More than one
of the officers supposedly had a gambling problem before assignment to the unit. You can
read about some of it online. Kinda makes you wonder...

BTW, I think you are confusing regulation, process and reporting. Sure there are
regulations, but the question is are the appropriate processes in place and is the proper
reporting done so that one (the public?) can be reasonably sure the processes are
followed and the regulatory requirements are met. Regulation is no good if it is not
enforced, or enforceable, and process worthless (in this case) without clear reporting. As
for machines at MS that pay too little or too much-- they've had there share of both (but
sadly all individual occurrences, LOL) Many people believed when they "changed the chips"
on all the pick'ems a few years ago the actual return dropped. I know a number of folks
that have kept detailed records (for > 5 years!) of their pick'em play there-- and if there
records are accurate, they have what amounts to the strongest evidence I've seen of this
kind of stuff-- but its still all not that unexpected (given a non-gaffed game) and I for
one don't smell a cheat. FWIW, I did see data that showed a particular pickem machine
payed out more than its "share" for 4OAKS-- where the likelihood of it happening by
chance (if I recall correctly) was 10% or so. Now that's a machine I like.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Cathy" <kitchat123@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, MHS <mspevack@> wrote:
>
> OK, if a "bunch of ignorance" is the problem, can anyone post here
> precisely how any of the four entities "regulate" casinos and where
> their reports can be found?
> > _
When I was doing some research online,....

#33

Hi Bill,

I am neither newbie nor more than reasonably paranoid, and have
benefitted from your wise counsel. I know that you have done your
research with painstaking accuracy. Please don't pay heed to a few
posters who evidently do not have the psychological bankroll to
withstand a prolonged losing streak, and are being guided by
anecdotal "evidence" of machine rigging.

Hopefully, this will not cause you to refrain from posting intelligent
refutations of superstitions and suspicions.

Thanks for all the information that I have received from your posts
over the years.

~Babe~

···

===================================================
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

......At the same time there are many customers who believe the most
ridiculous, illogical and idiotic myths about the casinos. I have
spent several years posting provable facts to this list in the hope
of debunking some of the myths and paranoia that circulates about the
industry. Facts, not opinions, not rumors, not something a slot tech
told me in confidence. Researched, provable facts........

#34

On the ct dept of special revenue site the pact with Foxwoods states:

The Tribal gaming agency shall notify the State gaming agency of the
rules of each game of chance which will be operated by the
Tribe ... The Tribe will provide the State gaming agency with ten
days' advance notice of the rules of each game and any modification
thereof, and will provide adequate notice to patrons of the gaming
facilities to advise them of the applicable rules in effect.

And it looks like they follow New Jresey Rules:

Notwithstanding the provisions of section 7(a) of this Compact or
section 31 of Appendix A, when any video facsimile of a game of
chance identified in section 3(a) (i) has been approved by the gaming
regulatory agencies of the State of New Jersey, then any
substantially similar version of such game must be approved by the
gaming regulatory agencies of the State of New Jersey in accordance
with regulations in effect under the gaming regulatory laws of New
Jersey, and the Tribe may operate (subject to the provisions of
section 15(a)) any video facsimile of such game which has been
approved by the gaming regulatory agencies of the State of New
Jersey.

And there are sections on State oversite:

b) State review authority. The State gaming agency
shall have the authority to review the tribal gaming operations in
order to determine whether such operations are conducted in
compliance with the provisions of this Compact, and for that purpose
personnel employed by the State gaming agency shall have access to
all areas of the gaming facilities without prior notice for the
purpose of audits of the Tribal gaming operations, and personnel
employed by the Tribal gaming operation shall for such purposes
provide such State personnel auditors access to locked and secure
areas of the gaming facilities in accordance with the standards of
maintenance and operation promulgated pursuant to this Compact.

I would advise anyone that thinks they are being cheated to review
this site. If however you chose to play 8/5 JOB, that is your coice.

>
> OK, if a "bunch of ignorance" is the problem, can anyone post

here

> precisely how any of the four entities "regulate" casinos and

where

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Cathy" <kitchat123@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, MHS <mspevack@> wrote:
> their reports can be found?

Cathy B.

#35

some of you nice people "nailed it" ....these indian casino's regulate
themselves...are you freakin kiddin me?....EVER since the 1st indian
casino opened, i wondered why ANYONE would go there. respectfully sorry
billy c.....self regulating "stinks to high heaven".......i have
witnessed in vegas, nevada gaming people randomly shutting down
machines & checking rng's....over the yrs i've seen vegas casino's
fined for violations. Have any of these indian & riverboat casinos ever
been "fined" or admitted to doing anything wrong? maybe i'm
wrong? bish

#36

I agree that, on paper, this "sounds" good. The question is, is the
provision for state inspection actually enforced? Is there an
established and funded department of inspectors who go out on a
regular basis and check the firmware? Who are these inspectors, and
how often do they perform inspections? Is there a record of and Indian
casinos being fined or otherwise penalized for infractions of rules?

Or is this merely a theoretical oversight that exists only on paper?
If it is real, it should not be too difficult to establish that fact.
On the other hand, if the reality of such inspections cannot be
established, then the "red flag" is raised even higher.

   Robert

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Ken" <whaler1961@...> wrote:

On the ct dept of special revenue site the pact with Foxwoods states:

The Tribal gaming agency shall notify the State gaming agency of the
rules of each game of chance which will be operated by the
Tribe ... The Tribe will provide the State gaming agency with ten
days' advance notice of the rules of each game and any modification
thereof, and will provide adequate notice to patrons of the gaming
facilities to advise them of the applicable rules in effect.

And it looks like they follow New Jresey Rules:

Notwithstanding the provisions of section 7(a) of this Compact or
section 31 of Appendix A, when any video facsimile of a game of
chance identified in section 3(a) (i) has been approved by the gaming
regulatory agencies of the State of New Jersey, then any
substantially similar version of such game must be approved by the
gaming regulatory agencies of the State of New Jersey in accordance
with regulations in effect under the gaming regulatory laws of New
Jersey, and the Tribe may operate (subject to the provisions of
section 15(a)) any video facsimile of such game which has been
approved by the gaming regulatory agencies of the State of New
Jersey.

And there are sections on State oversite:

b) State review authority. The State gaming agency
shall have the authority to review the tribal gaming operations in
order to determine whether such operations are conducted in
compliance with the provisions of this Compact, and for that purpose
personnel employed by the State gaming agency shall have access to
all areas of the gaming facilities without prior notice for the
purpose of audits of the Tribal gaming operations, and personnel
employed by the Tribal gaming operation shall for such purposes
provide such State personnel auditors access to locked and secure
areas of the gaming facilities in accordance with the standards of
maintenance and operation promulgated pursuant to this Compact.

I would advise anyone that thinks they are being cheated to review
this site. If however you chose to play 8/5 JOB, that is your coice.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Cathy" <kitchat123@> wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, MHS <mspevack@> wrote:
> >
> > OK, if a "bunch of ignorance" is the problem, can anyone post
here
> > precisely how any of the four entities "regulate" casinos and
where
> > their reports can be found?

> Cathy B.
>