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Random number generator

I know this has been discussed in the past but I can’t remember the final answer. I understand that when you push the deal button, all 10 cards are drawn. My question is, are the cards behind the original deal in the same position or can they show up in a different location. Does that make sense? I am going to give you an example which will explain why I am asking. Playing JB, dealt KJQ of clubs and 2 other cards which I discarded. I know I held all 3 cards but when I pressed draw the queen “unheld”. Of course the next 2 cards were 10 and A of clubs. Review was done. It showed the Q but did not show that it was held. Surveillance cameras were no help. Final decision was no royal ($20,000). Casino manager claims he spoke to IGT and they said even if I held the Q the other 2 cards might not have been the A and 10. Comments?

Sylvia

Sorry that happened to you. You must have been super-pissed-off. I know I would have been.

Your first understanding, that all 10 cards are dealt, however,is not correct now, but it used to be. I remember there was some cheating going on with the way it used to be with pattern recognition and being able to identify upcoming sequences. Now, the second press of the draw button triggers the deal of the next five cards. The mechanism, as I understand it is that the other 47 cards are continually shuffling in the background and only stop and appear when the button is pressed. So the exact nanosecond you press the button determines the drawn cards. I’m sure there are people on the site that can give a much more exact and complex description of how it works, but that’s the net result.

Now in the specific case you mentioned, assuming for the moment that you DIDN’T press the button to hold the Q, then had you pressed the Q, because it would have been a different exact nanosecond, a different 2 cards would probably have been dealt, not the A-10. So what IGT said (allegedly) is correct.

As for the “unhold” of the Q, there are a few possible explanation that I can think of, namely, a second, inadvertent, press of the button (i.e., your fault) or a sticky button which, although you touched it, failed to hold the Q (casino maintenance fault or the piggy player who spilled the Coke on the machine’s fault) or just a machine malfunction that caused the card to unhold (again casino fault).

Too bad the surveillance cameras didn’t show anything, that probably would have made a big difference. I’m sure that they didn’t bring you into the security room to look at the video. Did you get the Gaming Commission involved to look into it?

Anyhow, again, sorry that happened, that really sucks.

Guru

Certainly the game is rigged. Don’t let that stop you; if you don’t bet, you can’t win. -Lazarus Long

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is. -Yogi Berra

There is no such thing as luck. There is only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe. -Robert Heinlein

···

From: “sgosl…@…com [vpFREE]” <vpF…@…com>
To: vpF…@…com
Sent: Monday, August 6, 2018 12:08 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Random number generator

I know this has been discussed in the past but I can’t remember the final answer. I understand that when you push the deal button, all 10 cards are drawn. My question is, are the cards behind the original deal in the same position or can they show up in a different location. Does that make sense? I am going to give you an example which will explain why I am asking. Playing JB, dealt KJQ of clubs and 2 other cards which I discarded. I know I held all 3 cards but when I pressed draw the queen “unheld”. Of course the next 2 cards were 10 and A of clubs. Review was done. It showed the Q but did not show that it was held. Surveillance cameras were no help. Final decision was no royal ($20,000). Casino manager claims he spoke to IGT and they said even if I held the Q the other 2 cards might not have been the A and 10. Comments?

Sylvia


Virus-free. www.avast.com

This didn’t happen at Beau Rivage by any chance? (I had a parallel discussion with a manager there earlier this year …)

Actually, there’s some validity to what’s being claimed: Your draw cards are selected when you hit the draw card (with the undealt deck being “virtually shuffled” up to that moment). Anything that differs in your movements (such as effecting the “Q” hold) would likely have changed the timing of your “HOLD” button press … thus changing the draw outcome.

I doubt that’s comforting since it loosely suggests the only way you might see the desired RF cards on this particular draw was only if you “muffed” the Q hold :wink:

  • H.

—In vpF…@…com, <sgosline@…> wrote :

I know this has been discussed in the past but I can’t remember the final answer. I understand that when you push the deal button, all 10 cards are drawn. My question is, are the cards behind the original deal in the same position or can they show up in a different location. Does that make sense? I am going to give you an example which will explain why I am asking. Playing JB, dealt KJQ of clubs and 2 other cards which I discarded. I know I held all 3 cards but when I pressed draw the queen “unheld”. Of course the next 2 cards were 10 and A of clubs. Review was done. It showed the Q but did not show that it was held. Surveillance cameras were no help. Final decision was no royal ($20,000). Casino manager claims he spoke to IGT and they said even if I held the Q the other 2 cards might not have been the A and 10. Comments?

Sylvia

This happened on a cruise ship. The casino is run by Resort World. Doubt I have any recourse. They did offer a free spa treatment. I am trying to not let it ruin our vacation.

No, Sylvia; all 10 cards are NOT drawn when you hit the deal button. That method of dealing has been out of practice for decades and now is actually illegal in Nevada. The cards are continuously shuffled, so if the card was correctly held, there is a reasonable chance that the timing would have changed ever so slightly and you wouldn’t have hit the Royal.

I’m sorry that happened to you however, it’s very unfortunate. And also unfortunate there didn’t sound like there was clear evidence of you attempting to hold the unheld card. :frowning:

I have scanned the Nevada Gaming Regulations but I could never find those rules that governed the method of selecting the cards in VP. Can you point me to the section that contains those rules? I would like to read them.

I started here: https://gaming.nv.gov/index.aspx?page=51

G’luck all!

Gamb00ler

tringlomane wrote :

No, Sylvia; all 10 cards are NOT drawn when you hit the deal button. That method of dealing has been out of practice for decades and now is actually illegal in Nevada.

Look in Technical Standard 1 - Integrity of Gaming Devices; Section 1.400 Random Selection Process and Random Number Generator

"6. Additionally, video poker games must not determine replacement cards prior to the player
selecting hold cards and initiating a draw."

Also, IIRC, a slot/VP/BJ machine that is used in Nevada can't have programming available outside Nevada that would violate Nevada regulations. There was/is a blackjack machine that had a programmable house advantage that was independent of rules - i.e. it could appear to be a single deck game with good rules, but have a much higher house advantage.

Edmund

···

On 8/8/2018 12:07 AM, gamb00ler@yahoo.com [vpFREE] wrote:

I have scanned the Nevada Gaming Regulations but I could never find those rules that governed the method of selecting the cards in VP. Can you point me to the section that contains those rules? I would like to read them.

I started here: https://gaming.nv.gov/index.aspx?page=51

G'luck all!
Gamb00ler

tringlomane wrote :

No, Sylvia; all 10 cards are NOT drawn when you hit the deal button. That method of dealing has been out of practice for decades and now is actually illegal in Nevada.

I had scanned that section of the Gaming regulations but erroneously determined it was not relevant to my search. In fact, the very last subsection was exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for your help.

G’luck all,

Gamb00ler

Edmund wrote :

Look in Technical Standard 1 -
Integrity of Gaming Devices; Section 1.400 Random Selection
Process and Random Number Generator

"6. Additionally, video poker games must not determine replacement
cards prior to the player

selecting hold cards and initiating a draw."

Also, IIRC, a slot/VP/BJ machine that is used in Nevada can’t have
programming available outside Nevada that would violate Nevada
regulations. There was/is a blackjack machine that had a
programmable house advantage that was independent of rules - i.e.
it could appear to be a single deck game with good rules, but have
a much higher house advantage.

Edmund

···
   On 8/8/2018 12:07 AM, gamb00ler@... [vpFREE] wrote:

I have scanned the Nevada Gaming Regulations but I could
never find those rules that governed the method of
selecting the cards in VP. Can you point me to the
section that contains those rules? I would like to read
them.

I started here: https://gaming.nv.gov/index.aspx?page=51

G’luck all!

Gamb00ler

Further: If the payback schedule favors the house, even if
played to maximize the EV for each hand, why would the house bother to diddle
with how the program works?

    • Norma

Please take to heart that your hold timing would have differed had you held the cards intended, and you would not have wound up with the same draw cards.

There’s no recourse against the casino available. In the event of a future mishap elsewhere, it’s still worth asking if they can cut you a break. I’ve been successful a couple of times on lesser hands (quads).

—In vpF…@…com, <sgosline@…> wrote :

This happened on a cruise ship. The casino is run by Resort World. Doubt I have any recourse. They did offer a free spa treatment. I am trying to not let it ruin our vacation.