The other day I was playing $5 9/6 JOB at Seneca Niagara Casino. I was
varying my play by either pressing the play Max credit button or
pressing the bet 1 credit button which after being pressed 5 times it
would automatically deal the hand. For some unknown reason I
inadvertently hit deal/draw after only pressing the bet 1 credit
button once. On that 1 coin play hand I hit a Royal which then paid
only $1,250. My question is does the RNG stop after I pressed the bet
1 credit button or does it stop when I hit deal/draw. Anyone know the
answer?
Random Number Generator
The other day I was playing $5 9/6 JOB at Seneca Niagara Casino. I
was
varying my play by either pressing the play Max credit button or
pressing the bet 1 credit button which after being pressed 5 times
it
would automatically deal the hand. For some unknown reason I
inadvertently hit deal/draw after only pressing the bet 1 credit
button once. On that 1 coin play hand I hit a Royal which then
paid
only $1,250. My question is does the RNG stop after I pressed the
bet
1 credit button or does it stop when I hit deal/draw. Anyone know
the
answer?
actually it doesnt ever stop as long as the machine is in game
playing mode.
although it can be refered to as having "stopped" when you have held
the cards and then hit draw . it, actually another circuit, then
selects the random numbers from those left in the remaining field
that represent the card(s) to be displayed.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "eddies5657" <eddies5657@...> wrote:
To the best of my knowledge, in most instances, in the more modern machines, the RNG's
are "running" all the time.
.....bl
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "eddies5657" <eddies5657@...> wrote:
My question is does the RNG stop after I pressed the bet
1 credit button or does it stop when I hit deal/draw. Anyone know the
answer?
I asked a similar question to IGT (the majority manufacturer of Video poker machines). They sent back a web link to read an article in Strictly Slots...... http://www.strictlyslots.com/archive/0505ss/rng.html
Hope this helps with the RNG questions.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "eddies5657" <eddies5657@...> wrote:
My question is does the RNG stop after I pressed the bet
1 credit button or does it stop when I hit deal/draw. Anyone know the
answer?
I thought we went over this a few months ago, but does anyone know definitively the answer to this question? For example, in a new IGT Game King, is the RNG always running?
As a software engineer, I find it possible but doubtful. Unless the RNG is implemented in hardware, there's no reason to have it running continually in software. For all intents and purposes, the next number retrieved from the RNG function will be random (or pseudo-random), whether the function is called continuously, or just during idle CPU time, or only when a card is being drawn from the deck.
In fact, if electronic VP with a virtual deck is supposed to match closely what would be done manually with a real deck, the deck should be shuffled first, then the cards dealt, then drawn, etc., which would imply no change to the order after the initial shuffle. However, I seem to remember somewhere that "continuous shuffling" was mentioned; perhaps that's only between a final draw and the next time the player presses the "Deal" button.
Again, does anyone have a definitive answer on this? Might differ per manufacturer or even per game. IIRC, the "old" IGTs performed similar to the manual method, while the "new" IGTs continuously shuffle the virtual deck, even between "Deal" and "Draw".
To the best of my knowledge, in most instances, in the more modern machines, the RNG's
are "running" all the time.
.....bl
···
bornloser1537 <bornloser1537@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "eddies5657" <eddies5657@...> wrote:
My question is does the RNG stop after I pressed the bet
1 credit button or does it stop when I hit deal/draw. Anyone know the
answer?
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sounds like typical software-based pseudo-random number functions, such as seed() and rand(). Which begs the question, does anyone know what tools are used to build the actual software in VP machines - are they using Microsoft Visual Studio, Eclipse, or some other tool? And what language are they written in - C++?
Not that knowing the answers to any or all of these questions would help you defeat or predict the RNG...
I asked a similar question to IGT (the majority manufacturer of Video
poker machines). They sent back a web link to read an article in
Strictly Slots......
http://www.strictlyslots.com/archive/0505ss/rng.html
Hope this helps with the RNG questions.
···
dlf89 <dlf89@prodigy.net> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "eddies5657" <eddies5657@...> wrote:
My question is does the RNG stop after I pressed the bet
1 credit button or does it stop when I hit deal/draw. Anyone know
the
answer?
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The "running all the time" is what "real-time operating systems" like to do. They are
continually cycling through a software loop, looking for some "customer action", like
pushing a button or some such. This cycle is typicallly 1,000 cycles per second or more.
As a part of that loop, there is a call to a RNG subroutine. By "running all the time", one
has a "time element" involved. The random number returned is then also a function of
when you push a button, and it spits out a different random number, even if there is a
microsecond's difference in when you hit any buutton.
Just my opinion, but I do work with these kinds of real-time "looping systems". although
not for gambling.
.....bl
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Douglass <john.douglass@...> wrote:
In fact, if electronic VP with a virtual deck is supposed to match closely what would be
done manually with a real deck, the deck should be shuffled first, then the cards dealt,
then drawn, etc., which would imply no change to the order after the initial shuffle.
A brief follow-up .
When the software routine in the VP machine is looping, waiting for some customer input,
each time it goes through that loop the call to the random number subroutine deposits the
"new" random number in some pre-assigned memory location. Thus, while the loop is
running, the random number generator is continuously up-dating that memory location,
every time it goes through the loop, with a new random number. Thus, the random
number in this location is being changed a thousand times or more a second.
Now, whenever the VP machine needs a random number, it just goes to the pre-assigned
memory location and picks up whatever random number happens to be there. The
random number that it picks up, remember, is changing a thousand times a second, or
more. The "use" of the random number has nothing to do with the "generation" of that
random number. They are two distinct tasks.
Anyway, I hope this sheds more light on the situation.
..bl
The "running all the time" is what "real-time operating systems" like to do. They are
continually cycling through a software loop, looking for some "customer action", like
pushing a button or some such. This cycle is typicallly 1,000 cycles per second or more.
As a part of that loop, there is a call to a RNG subroutine. By "running all the time", one
has a "time element" involved. The random number returned is then also a function of
when you push a button, and it spits out a different random number, even if there is a
microsecond's difference in when you hit any buutton.Just my opinion, but I do work with these kinds of real-time "looping systems". although
not for gambling......bl
>
> In fact, if electronic VP with a virtual deck is supposed to match closely what would
be
> done manually with a real deck, the deck should be shuffled first, then the cards
dealt,
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bornloser1537" <bornloser1537@...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Douglass <john.douglass@> wrote:
> then drawn, etc., which would imply no change to the order after the initial shuffle.
As you see, this is a really quiet morning, and I have nothing better to do...
As I have said earlier, what a random number generator does is to generate a random
sequence of numbers, all between 0 and 1, and deposit them in a specific memory
location. The value in this location is constantly changing, a thousand times a second or
more. As you might ask, what has this got to do with cards, and dealing from a deck?
How this works, in words, is usually as follows:
A deck of cards can be represented by 52 integers, 1 through 52 (assuming no Joker
if
we have a joker we start with 53 and not 52). We can, for instance, have 1 stand for the
Ace of Spades, 2 stand for the Deuce of Spades, all the way through 52 standing for the
King of Clubs. Now, suppose we want to select a card randomly from a deck. We go to
our handy-dandy RNG location, get the random number that is sitting there (remember
the random number is between 0 and 1). Multiply 52 by the random number, add 0.5 and
round it to the nearest integer. This integer will be between 1 and 52. We go to our
"deck" and see what card that number represents, and write it to the screen. There are
now 51 cards left in the deck. Get another random number and multiply it by 51 (instead
of 52). This gives an integer between 1 and 51. The software, having eliminated the card
already dealt from the deck, now gets the second card dealt and writes it to the screen. It
goes through it a third time, now multiplying the random number by 50, to get the third
card. And so forth, getting 10 cards in all for the VP hand.
Each manufacturer might use different ways of doing things, but, in the main, this is
usually what happens.
..bl
As a fellow software engineer who has worked on real-time embedded systems as well as real time and semi-real-time business applications I offer the following explanation:
Since this is a real time system that runs on a dedicated processor with a limited set of tasks it is not a big deal to run the RNG periodically as the embedded run time kernel slices up the CPU time. Generally speaking, the CPU has to draw the screen, interface with the user (play the game, read slot cards, scan money, etc), report instrumentation data back to a remote host and run the game itself. As you're probably aware, a user is an incredibly slow I/O device and requires a miniscule amount of the CPU. Instrumentation data rate would be driven by the speed at which the user is playing the game which we already know is slow, so it won't take alot of time either. Given the speed and power of today's graphic chip sets, managing the screen would not take alot of time either. This leaves us with the RNG and various other overhead tasks imposed by the run time kernel which I don't think consume that much of the CPU. The RNG, no doubt, is alot more complex and less predicatable than the standard C rand() and seed() functions. Furthermore, if the RNG were only to be run once per time the game needed a random number, it would make any unintentional patterns in the RNG alot more obvious to someone seeking out such patterns, thus making the game vulnerable to cheating.
···
----- Original Message -----
From: John Douglass
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 3:52 AM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Random Number Generator
I thought we went over this a few months ago, but does anyone know definitively the answer to this question? For example, in a new IGT Game King, is the RNG always running?
As a software engineer, I find it possible but doubtful. Unless the RNG is implemented in hardware, there's no reason to have it running continually in software. For all intents and purposes, the next number retrieved from the RNG function will be random (or pseudo-random), whether the function is called continuously, or just during idle CPU time, or only when a card is being drawn from the deck.
In fact, if electronic VP with a virtual deck is supposed to match closely what would be done manually with a real deck, the deck should be shuffled first, then the cards dealt, then drawn, etc., which would imply no change to the order after the initial shuffle. However, I seem to remember somewhere that "continuous shuffling" was mentioned; perhaps that's only between a final draw and the next time the player presses the "Deal" button.
Again, does anyone have a definitive answer on this? Might differ per manufacturer or even per game. IIRC, the "old" IGTs performed similar to the manual method, while the "new" IGTs continuously shuffle the virtual deck, even between "Deal" and "Draw".
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I interviewed for a job writing embedded software for gaming machines for Bally Gaming back in the early '90's. I passed on the job offer, so this answer is limited to the information I gained during the interview process. My recollection is that they were using a combination of C and assembler. As I recall, they had both Intel and Moto based systems at the time. I assume that the assembler code was to maximize processor time for certain tasks. Remember, 15 years ago CPUs were not nearly as powerful as they are now and most embedded systems used either no run time kernel or one of very limited sophistication. These days, they could embed Windows, Linux or any number of other OS's, write all the code in a high level language and still have CPU power left over.
···
----- Original Message -----
From: John Douglass
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 4:11 AM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Random Number Generator
Sounds like typical software-based pseudo-random number functions, such as seed() and rand(). Which begs the question, does anyone know what tools are used to build the actual software in VP machines - are they using Microsoft Visual Studio, Eclipse, or some other tool? And what language are they written in - C++?
Not that knowing the answers to any or all of these questions would help you defeat or predict the RNG...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yes, many real time systems are developed this way, although I would guess that their system is using a multithreaded and interrupt driven approach. Obviously, one would use system interrupts to respond to user inputs, network requests from a host machine and even timing (this is normally triggerred off an on-chip, reloadable timer). No doubt, there is a task loop as well in the system that is probably responsible for invoking the RNG, reloading a watchdog, etc.
···
----- Original Message -----
From: bornloser1537
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:14 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Random Number Generator
The "running all the time" is what "real-time operating systems" like to do. They are
continually cycling through a software loop, looking for some "customer action", like
pushing a button or some such. This cycle is typicallly 1,000 cycles per second or more.
As a part of that loop, there is a call to a RNG subroutine. By "running all the time", one
has a "time element" involved. The random number returned is then also a function of
when you push a button, and it spits out a different random number, even if there is a
microsecond's difference in when you hit any buutton.
Just my opinion, but I do work with these kinds of real-time "looping systems". although
not for gambling.
.....bl
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Douglass <john.douglass@...> wrote:
>
> In fact, if electronic VP with a virtual deck is supposed to match closely what would be
> done manually with a real deck, the deck should be shuffled first, then the cards dealt,
> then drawn, etc., which would imply no change to the order after the initial shuffle.
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bornloser1537" <bornloser1537@...>
wrote:
As you see, this is a really quiet morning, and I have nothing
better to do...
As I have said earlier, what a random number generator does is to
generate a random
sequence of numbers, all between 0 and 1, and deposit them in a
specific memory
location. The value in this location is constantly changing, a
thousand times a second or
more.
Thanks for one of the better descriptions of how this process works.
I do think, however, you meant to say, later on, that the rounding up
produces an integer from 1 through 52, not between 1 and 52, which
would exclude two cards,(numbers 1 and 52).
I know this thread is getting very geeky but of course there's a
slight error in this description. When the RNG selects a number
between 1 and 52, the program that pulls the number then looks it up
to find the card that the number represents. When the program pulls
the next number it then checks to see if that number was already
selected. If so, it will throw it out and get another. This prevents
duplicate cards.
The RNG doesn't know if a number is used or not. And the algorithm
described below would not eliminate the selected number, only the
number 52 and the card it represents.
Also, the original poster asked if the program has to emulate a
hand-dealt game, meaning the remaining cards in the deck are fixed,
not shuffled. It does not. It only has to have each element have the
same chance of appearing as in the live game. Here's the relevant
regulation portion (and it answers other questions that have been
previously posted):
For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games,
the mathematical
probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome
must be equal to the
mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the
live gambling game. For other
gaming devices, the mathematical probability of a symbol appearing in
a position in any game
outcome must be constant.
(c) The selection process must not produce detectable patterns of
game elements or
detectable dependency upon any previous game outcome, the amount
wagered, or upon the
style or method of play.
3. Must display an accurate representation of the game outcome. After
selection of the game
outcome, the gaming device must not make a variable secondary
decision which affects the
result shown to the player.
4. Must display the rules of play and payoff schedule.
5. Must not automatically alter paytables or any function of the
device based on internal
computation of the hold percentage.
6. Must meet the technical standards adopted pursuant to section 14.050.
···
At 06:35 AM 5/16/2006, you wrote:
This integer will be between 1 and 52. We go to our
"deck" and see what card that number represents, and write it to the
screen. There are
now 51 cards left in the deck. Get another random number and
multiply it by 51 (instead
of 52). This gives an integer between 1 and 51. The software,
having eliminated the card
already dealt from the deck, now gets the second card dealt and
writes it to the screen. It
goes through it a third time, now multiplying the random number by
50, to get the third
card. And so forth, getting 10 cards in all for the VP hand.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It does and it doesn't. The explanation of how VP hands are chosen is
obviously bogus. "Each possible outcome of 10 cards in a 52-card deck
(53 in Joker Poker) is assigned a single number in the program."
This would require 70,758,332,701,056,000 different hand orders for
joker VP to be stored and assigned a number. ( This is 53! / 43! for
math geeks, remember that order does count!) The CPU in a VP machine
doesn't have this kind of storage capacity. There are any number of
shuffling algorithms that can be used to simulate the shuffling of a
deck in a manner to satisfy the authorities. (My bet is that they use
the Fisher-Yates exchange algorithm. Details on request.)
Oh, and the Nevada regulations have relatively weak requirements on the RNG.
···
On 5/14/06, dlf89 <dlf89@prodigy.net> wrote:
I asked a similar question to IGT (the majority manufacturer of Video
poker machines). They sent back a web link to read an article in
Strictly Slots......
http://www.strictlyslots.com/archive/0505ss/rng.html
Hope this helps with the RNG questions.
bl, I appreciate what you're saying, and it's probably correct, but I wonder if anyone out there can tell us from personal experience what software architecture a specific VP machine uses, such as an IGT GameKing.
bornloser1537 <bornloser1537@yahoo.com> wrote: The "running all the time" is what "real-time operating systems" like to do. They are continually cycling through a software loop, looking for some "customer action", like pushing a button or some such. This cycle is typicallly 1,000 cycles per second or more. As a part of that loop, there is a call to a RNG subroutine. By "running all the time", one has a "time element" involved. The random number returned is then also a function of when you push a button, and it spits out a different random number, even if there is a microsecond's difference in when you hit any buutton.
Just my opinion, but I do work with these kinds of real-time "looping systems". although not for gambling.
.....bl
···
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mopar, thanks for the input. I agree with most of what you're saying. However, the IGT article quoted previously specifically mentioned the seed function, which is what led me to comment that it sounds very much like the typical standard library functions of any language.
Again, this is all conjecture. For all we know, IGT GameKings are all written in hand-coded assembly with a hardware RNG. Or maybe they are actually all developed using standard tools. Who can set us straight? Maybe I'll have to snap a photo with my cellphone the next time a tech opens one up next to me 
lol
···
Mopar Man <moparman4@cox.net> wrote:
As a fellow software engineer who has worked on real-time embedded systems as well as real time and semi-real-time business applications I offer the following explanation:
Since this is a real time system that runs on a dedicated processor with a limited set of tasks it is not a big deal to run the RNG periodically as the embedded run time kernel slices up the CPU time. Generally speaking, the CPU has to draw the screen, interface with the user (play the game, read slot cards, scan money, etc), report instrumentation data back to a remote host and run the game itself. As you're probably aware, a user is an incredibly slow I/O device and requires a miniscule amount of the CPU. Instrumentation data rate would be driven by the speed at which the user is playing the game which we already know is slow, so it won't take alot of time either. Given the speed and power of today's graphic chip sets, managing the screen would not take alot of time either. This leaves us with the RNG and various other overhead tasks imposed by the run time kernel which I don't think consume that much of the CPU. The RNG, no doubt, is alot more complex and less
predicatable than the standard C rand() and seed() functions. Furthermore, if the RNG were only to be run once per time the game needed a random number, it would make any unintentional patterns in the RNG alot more obvious to someone seeking out such patterns, thus making the game vulnerable to cheating.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Douglass
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 3:52 AM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Random Number Generator
I thought we went over this a few months ago, but does anyone know definitively the answer to this question? For example, in a new IGT Game King, is the RNG always running?
As a software engineer, I find it possible but doubtful. Unless the RNG is implemented in hardware, there's no reason to have it running continually in software. For all intents and purposes, the next number retrieved from the RNG function will be random (or pseudo-random), whether the function is called continuously, or just during idle CPU time, or only when a card is being drawn from the deck.
In fact, if electronic VP with a virtual deck is supposed to match closely what would be done manually with a real deck, the deck should be shuffled first, then the cards dealt, then drawn, etc., which would imply no change to the order after the initial shuffle. However, I seem to remember somewhere that "continuous shuffling" was mentioned; perhaps that's only between a final draw and the next time the player presses the "Deal" button.
Again, does anyone have a definitive answer on this? Might differ per manufacturer or even per game. IIRC, the "old" IGTs performed similar to the manual method, while the "new" IGTs continuously shuffle the virtual deck, even between "Deal" and "Draw".
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bill, thanks for the citation. It's clear from the NV gaming citation you gave that it's not required to emulate a hand-dealt game, only that the probabilities be the same.
Bill Coleman <vphobby2@cox.net> wrote: Also, the original poster asked if the program has to emulate a
hand-dealt game, meaning the remaining cards in the deck are fixed,
not shuffled. It does not. It only has to have each element have the
same chance of appearing as in the live game. Here's the relevant
regulation portion (and it answers other questions that have been
previously posted):
···
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm not so sure that it would be in IGT's best interest to disseminate accurate information regarding their RNG to the public. Therefore, I took what was stated in that article with a grain of salt.
···
----- Original Message -----
From: John Douglass
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Random Number Generator
Mopar, thanks for the input. I agree with most of what you're saying. However, the IGT article quoted previously specifically mentioned the seed function, which is what led me to comment that it sounds very much like the typical standard library functions of any language.
Again, this is all conjecture. For all we know, IGT GameKings are all written in hand-coded assembly with a hardware RNG. Or maybe they are actually all developed using standard tools. Who can set us straight? Maybe I'll have to snap a photo with my cellphone the next time a tech opens one up next to me lol
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Unfortunately, Frank Legato has never gotten this point correctly,
regarding either slots or VP.
I researched this point both with IGT and with certain individuals
who have patented VP machines. In fact, the RNG picks a number
between 1 and 52 for each card, ignoring duplicates. What the
specific algorithm is is a trade secret but the process is not.
I'd be curious to know the meaning of your last statement since the
regs are extremely specific regarding the statistical tests that must
be passed.
B
···
At 05:43 PM 5/16/2006, you wrote:
On 5/14/06, dlf89 <dlf89@prodigy.net> wrote:
> I asked a similar question to IGT (the majority manufacturer of Video
> poker machines). They sent back a web link to read an article in
> Strictly Slots......
> http://www.strictlyslots.com/archive/0505ss/rng.html
> Hope this helps with the RNG questions.It does and it doesn't. The explanation of how VP hands are chosen is
obviously bogus. "Each possible outcome of 10 cards in a 52-card deck
(53 in Joker Poker) is assigned a single number in the program."This would require 70,758,332,701,056,000 different hand orders for
joker VP to be stored and assigned a number. ( This is 53! / 43! for
math geeks, remember that order does count!) The CPU in a VP machine
doesn't have this kind of storage capacity. There are any number of
shuffling algorithms that can be used to simulate the shuffling of a
deck in a manner to satisfy the authorities. (My bet is that they use
the Fisher-Yates exchange algorithm. Details on request.)Oh, and the Nevada regulations have relatively weak requirements on the RNG.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]