vpFREE2 Forums

random cyclicality in vp

gilbert wrote:

Believe IT or Not!!!
Random is random is random. And no matter how honest and random the
vp machines are...we should all agree that the casinos have these
machines on their floors --> for PROFIT.

Agreed, on all counts.

In short, the randomness programmed in these vp machines are still in
favor of the casinos.

Oh, now randomness is "programmed". Another self-contradicting statement.

The machines are random. The games favor the casino for two reasons:
1. Most paytables are set up so that the casino has the advantage no matter how accurately or skillfully you play.
2. Most players (probably over 99.9%) are not skilled, so their strategy errors give up about 1% to 2% more to the casino than if they played perfectly.

Otherwise, they'll be gone by now and replaced
with Wheel Of Fortune machines or the 1c Blazing 777s.

Look around downtown Las Vegas. When I first surveyed the casinos for good video poker, there were over 100 games that offered over 100% return. At last report, all were gone except for possibly a few remaining at Main Street Station.

Dan

···

--
Dan Paymar
Author of best selling book, "Video Poker - Optimum Play"
Developer of VP analysis/trainer software "Optimum Video Poker"
Visit my web site at www.OptimumPlay.com

"Chance favors the prepared mind." -- Louis Pasteur

gilbert wrote:
>In short, the randomness programmed in these vp machines are still

in

>favor of the casinos.

Oh, now randomness is "programmed". Another self-contradicting

statement.

The machines are random. The games favor the casino for two reasons:
1. Most paytables are set up so that the casino has the advantage

no

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Dan Paymar <Dan@...> wrote:

matter how accurately or skillfully you play.
2. Most players (probably over 99.9%) are not skilled, so their
strategy errors give up about 1% to 2% more to the casino than if
they played perfectly.

--
Dan Paymar
Author of best selling book, "Video Poker - Optimum Play"
Developer of VP analysis/trainer software "Optimum Video Poker"

-------------------------------------------

gilbert wrote:
C'mon Dan. As a software developer/analyst, you know what I'm talking
about. One can set the Random Seed to a number in a program easily
if s/he wants to control the outcome of the random number to generate.
I do it all the time at work to generate random data.
I'm not saying that this is being done by the casinos (even Indian
casinos?) to cheat the players such as "Adding an IF statement where
if the random number generated is an "A" to complete a held 3 Aces
for a 4-of-a-kind, generate another number. Do this 100 times and
then get out of checking this "A" and give the player a 4 Aces.".

A given Random Seed (1234567890) generates a much different random
numbers than say a Random Seed (2), for example.

Another good example...check out Video Poker for Winners!
By Default, the Basic or Beginner's mode, the random numbers
generated are in favor of the users/players. No matter which game
you play, you WIN as long as you follow the correct strategy.

If the randomness of vp machines are set to favor the players, many
casinos will be out of business. It is probably set to such a huge
number that no player can see any pattern to memorize or do something
to win all the time - which is what I mean by it in favor of the
casinos.

C'mon Dan. As a software developer/analyst, you know what I'm

talking

about. One can set the Random Seed to a number in a program easily
if s/he wants to control the outcome of the random number to

generate.

For a single number ... sure. However, you'd have to continually
reseed the RNG over and over again to get poor results. This would
lead to an obvious lack of randomness or require infinite memory and
the machines would never pass the required testing.

I do it all the time at work to generate random data.

So, is the resultant data random or not??? You see it if you don't
continually reseed the RNG it WILL generate random numbers.

I'm not saying that this is being done by the casinos (even Indian
casinos?) to cheat the players such as "Adding an IF statement

where

if the random number generated is an "A" to complete a held 3 Aces
for a 4-of-a-kind, generate another number. Do this 100 times and
then get out of checking this "A" and give the player a 4 Aces.".

Good. This has nothing to do with RNGs. It's all about secondary
programming which is specifically disallowed by Nevada regs.

A given Random Seed (1234567890) generates a much different random
numbers than say a Random Seed (2), for example.

Not necessasarily. You clearly know very little about RNGs. The next
number generated is quite irrelevant. An RNG generates a sequence of
millions of numbers. The next number generated by selecting (2) could
be (1234567890) and you'd follow the same sequence thereafter. Add
that to fact that the RNG runs continuously pretty much destroys your
argument.

Another good example...check out Video Poker for Winners!
By Default, the Basic or Beginner's mode, the random numbers
generated are in favor of the users/players. No matter which game
you play, you WIN as long as you follow the correct strategy.

First of all you have to understand that VP requires both random and
fair results, that is, the probability of any particular card is
exactly the same. We often assume the "fair" part of this requirement
when discussing random.

Beginner's mode of VPfW is NOT fair (even distribution). Slot
machines also use RNGs but do not map the results equally to all
payouts. They control the probability of each payout by mapping more
random numbers into lower payouts. Do you understand how they do
this? If so, then you understand the difference between a slot
machine and a VP machine where this isn't allowed.

If the randomness of vp machines are set to favor the players, many
casinos will be out of business.

I hope you realize by now just how ridiculous this statement is. If
VP machines are required by law to be random AND FAIR, then they
can't be set ... PERIOD.

It is probably set to such a huge
number that no player can see any pattern to memorize or do

something

to win all the time - which is what I mean by it in favor of the
casinos.

Now you know why this is not possible.

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "gilbert_616" <gilbert_616@...> wrote:

What you say is true, in a sense. If random numbers were spit out by the RNG subroutine
in sequence, you would have a stronger argument.

However, since the RNG in modern machines is running all the time, it depends on "when"
the player presses a button. Even with a millisecond difference the RNG subroutine will
spit out a "different" random number. As such, the "programmer" has no way to dictate
what random number will be used for a VP "spin".

....bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "gilbert_616" <gilbert_616@...> wrote:

C'mon Dan. As a software developer/analyst, you know what I'm talking
about. One can set the Random Seed to a number in a program easily
if s/he wants to control the outcome of the random number to generate.
I do it all the time at work to generate random data.
I'm not saying that this is being done by the casinos (even Indian
casinos?) to cheat the players such as "Adding an IF statement where
if the random number generated is an "A" to complete a held 3 Aces
for a 4-of-a-kind, generate another number. Do this 100 times and
then get out of checking this "A" and give the player a 4 Aces.".

A given Random Seed (1234567890) generates a much different random
numbers than say a Random Seed (2), for example.

Another good example...check out Video Poker for Winners!
By Default, the Basic or Beginner's mode, the random numbers
generated are in favor of the users/players. No matter which game
you play, you WIN as long as you follow the correct strategy.

If the randomness of vp machines are set to favor the players, many
casinos will be out of business. It is probably set to such a huge
number that no player can see any pattern to memorize or do something
to win all the time - which is what I mean by it in favor of the
casinos.