vpFREE2 Forums

Questions - Long term prospects playing Video Poker & Dancer article.

#1

I have been playing video poker for quite a few years with lots of
ups and downs. Recently a big "up" has been a dealt royal in a
Double Pay machine for 25 grand which helped !! I do have a few
questions to the forum members for comments. Thanks for reading
and/ replying.

1. If the "edge" players like us have is small, how can you survive
in the long run ? I mean , for the amount of time and money you
spend in the casinos, how much profit can you really make ? If you
read Jeff Lotspiech's page at
(http://members.aol.com/lotsie/poker.html ), you can barely make
minimum wage !!

2. So, this question is to the winning players out there >> How do
you win or keep winning or keep making profit playing video poker.
Are you getting "over royalled " or hitting lots of progressives ?

3. I was a little disturbed by Dan Paymer's article on Nov. 1st
(http://www.bobdancer.com/articles.cfm ) titled "Do I wish I played
regular poker ? ". My concerns stem from the fact I play both video
poker and regular poker (limit texas hold em) and find that the
article has some negative implications;

   (a) That it requires a lot of intelligence or IQ to play poker.
Though the article talks only about no limit tournament poker, it
does imply it to " regular poker"
   (b) That it implies that videopoker 'on the other hand" does not
require a lot of intelligence !!??

Both seem to be generalizations and though regular poker needs
more "knowledge" - it is by no means impossible to play / win at
whatsoever. I am a long term winner at "regular poker" and donot
think it to be needing a 'ton of intelligence' whatsoever.

I am new to this forum and apologize if I have got it "all
wrong " !! I hope this sparks some honest debate / discussion and
informed conclusions.

Thanks once again.

#2

nirpam wrote:

3. I was a little disturbed by Dan Paymer's article on Nov. 1st
(http://www.bobdancer.com/articles.cfm ) titled "Do I wish I played
regular poker ? ".

I can imagine one or two authors who might be modestly disturbed by
your statement here (more likely, minorly amused :wink:

Welcome aboard ... hope your post generates some good contemplative
replies (rather than just my ribbing ...)

- H.

#3

I have been playing video poker for quite a few years with lots of
ups and downs. Recently a big "up" has been a dealt royal in a
Double Pay machine for 25 grand which helped !! I do have a few
questions to the forum members for comments. Thanks for reading
and/ replying.

1. If the "edge" players like us have is small, how can you

survive

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nirpam" <nirpam@y...> wrote:

in the long run ? I mean , for the amount of time and money you
spend in the casinos, how much profit can you really make ? If you
read Jeff Lotspiech's page at
(http://members.aol.com/lotsie/poker.html ), you can barely make
minimum wage !!

**********************************************************************
FPDW at 100.7% at .25 at 800 hands an hour= about $7.60 + any comps
or anything else you can hustle off the casinos, Your milage may vary

2. So, this question is to the winning players out there >> How do
you win or keep winning or keep making profit playing video poker.
Are you getting "over royalled " or hitting lots of progressives ?

********************************************************************
hustling VP products or BJ stratergy cards or BAD tax books on the
side works for a few, : )
lots of locals play nothin but progs & only at a 2% or more edge,
VERY disaplined people,
Us "tourists" need to figure the vaule of our RFB comps, these
usually allow for a small profit over time

3. I was a little disturbed by Dan Paymer's article on Nov. 1st
(http://www.bobdancer.com/articles.cfm ) titled "Do I wish I played
regular poker ? ". My concerns stem from the fact I play both

video

poker and regular poker (limit texas hold em) and find that the
article has some negative implications;

   (a) That it requires a lot of intelligence or IQ to play poker.
Though the article talks only about no limit tournament poker, it
does imply it to " regular poker"
   (b) That it implies that videopoker 'on the other hand" does

not

require a lot of intelligence !!??

Both seem to be generalizations and though regular poker needs
more "knowledge" - it is by no means impossible to play / win at
whatsoever. I am a long term winner at "regular poker" and donot
think it to be needing a 'ton of intelligence' whatsoever.

**********************************************************************
But it helps to be the smartest at the table dont it??

& if you can read a stratergy card(thats the ez part) & follow it,
(there the hard part) then i guess you dont need a 'ton of
intelligence' BUT I disagree with that. As with any thing else, being
smart is better than not being smart.

**********************************************************************

I am new to this forum and apologize if I have got it "all
wrong " !! I hope this sparks some honest debate / discussion and
informed conclusions.

*********************************************************************
Well this sure aint it ; )

M J

#4

<<nirpam wrote:

3. I was a little disturbed by Dan Paymar's article on Nov. 1st
(http://www.bobdancer.com/articles.cfm ) titled "Do I wish I played
regular poker ? ".>>

That is an article by Bob Dancer, not Dan Paymar. The humor that some people will find in this (and that Harry obliquely referred to) is that Bob Dancer and Dan Paymar have had a running "battle" over personal and VP issues for years. They BOTH would be insulted if people mixed them up!!!!!

But, don't feel bad. It was an honest mistake on your part. And the questions you raised are very valid and pertinent - and I hope there is some more input about them here.

<<2. So, this question is to the winning players out there >> How do
you win or keep winning or keep making profit playing video poker.
Are you getting "over royalled " or hitting lots of progressives ?>>

Yes, there are winning players out there. I am one of them. First, it is not as easy as it used to be but it is still possible if you work hard at it. Most of the money we make is not from the VP game itself - logical because we mostly play below 100% games, i.e., JoB. It is from the "extras," like bounce-back cash that locals get for their play - Brad and I play at very high denominations now and get over $3000 a month from this source. However, scrambling quarter players will get a lot if they know how to work the system. Out-of-town players get some BB - but not as much, usually, as locals. We work the slot club system hard, with cashback and other cash equivalents, like gift cards. We also work promotions hard - drawings, card-of-the-day, tournaments, etc.

This is just a thumbnail explanation - it took me two whole BOOKS to give the thousands of things you can do to help you be a winner. (You can see them in my Web site below.)

And a final word of wisdom: We don't win every time we play - it is over the long term - and that can take even more than a year of frequent play. We have had one losing year (small loss) in 16 years of playing VP. The other 15 years we have won amounts ranging from just a couple of hundred dollar to an amount that would be the equivalent to the amount of 10 royals. Some years we are under-royaled; some over. Some years we are below the theoretical EV we should win and sometimes way over. However, averaging all our years together, we find we are very close the average EV of our total play and we hit royals on average at just about the rate the cycle says we should.

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards.
  NEW - Blackjack Strategy Cards +
              Updated Second Edition of
             "The Frugal Gambler."

#5

I just cannot believe I mixed them up !!!!!!!!!!

I know them both and thought it was Dan and looked it
up and it was Bob and forgot to change the typed
sentence !! My fault entirely and my apologies to
both. This is very negative EV for asking either one
for advice in future !!!

Thanks for the reply

···

--- Jean Scott <QueenofComps@frugalgambler.biz> wrote:

<<nirpam wrote:
> 3. I was a little disturbed by Dan Paymar's
article on Nov. 1st
> (http://www.bobdancer.com/articles.cfm ) titled
"Do I wish I played
> regular poker ? ".>>

That is an article by Bob Dancer, not Dan Paymar.
The humor that some people
will find in this (and that Harry obliquely referred
to) is that Bob Dancer
and Dan Paymar have had a running "battle" over
personal and VP issues for
years. They BOTH would be insulted if people mixed
them up!!!!!

But, don't feel bad. It was an honest mistake on
your part. And the
questions you raised are very valid and pertinent -
and I hope there is some
more input about them here.

<<2. So, this question is to the winning players out
there >> How do
you win or keep winning or keep making profit
playing video poker.
Are you getting "over royalled " or hitting lots of
progressives ?>>

Yes, there are winning players out there. I am one
of them. First, it is
not as easy as it used to be but it is still
possible if you work hard at
it. Most of the money we make is not from the VP
game itself - logical
because we mostly play below 100% games, i.e., JoB.
It is from the
"extras," like bounce-back cash that locals get for
their play - Brad and I
play at very high denominations now and get over
$3000 a month from this
source. However, scrambling quarter players will
get a lot if they know how
to work the system. Out-of-town players get some BB
- but not as much,
usually, as locals. We work the slot club system
hard, with cashback and
other cash equivalents, like gift cards. We also
work promotions hard -
drawings, card-of-the-day, tournaments, etc.

This is just a thumbnail explanation - it took me
two whole BOOKS to give
the thousands of things you can do to help you be a
winner. (You can see
them in my Web site below.)

And a final word of wisdom: We don't win every time
we play - it is over
the long term - and that can take even more than a
year of frequent play.
We have had one losing year (small loss) in 16 years
of playing VP. The
other 15 years we have won amounts ranging from just
a couple of hundred
dollar to an amount that would be the equivalent to
the amount of 10 royals.
Some years we are under-royaled; some over. Some
years we are below the
theoretical EV we should win and sometimes way over.
However, averaging all
our years together, we find we are very close the
average EV of our total
play and we hit royals on average at just about the
rate the cycle says we
should.
________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards.
  NEW - Blackjack Strategy Cards +
              Updated Second Edition of
             "The Frugal Gambler."

__________________________________
Yahoo! Music Unlimited
Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/

#6

Nipram wrote: 3. I was a little disturbed by (censored!) article on Nov.
1st
( <http://www.bobdancer.com/articles.cfm>
http://www.bobdancer.com/articles.cfm ) titled "Do I wish I played
regular poker ? ". My concerns stem from the fact I play both video
poker and regular poker (limit texas hold em) and find that the
article has some negative implications;

   (a) That it requires a lot of intelligence or IQ to play poker.
Though the article talks only about no limit tournament poker, it
does imply it to " regular poker"
   (b) That it implies that videopoker 'on the other hand" does not
require a lot of intelligence !!??

Both seem to be generalizations and though regular poker needs
more "knowledge" - it is by no means impossible to play / win at
whatsoever. I am a long term winner at "regular poker" and donot
think it to be needing a 'ton of intelligence' whatsoever.

I am new to this forum and apologize if I have got it "all
wrong " !! I hope this sparks some honest debate / discussion and
informed conclusions.

First of all, there's no hard feelings about mixing up who wrote the
article.

Just don't let it happen again! <g>

The original article was about MY decision process, which may be quite
different from yours. I was discussing whether it was likely I could
average $150K a year or more playing live poker --- given my personal
strengths, weaknesses, and already-obtained skills. If not, it would
make no sense to change games. My conclusion was that I probably
couldn't be that kind of success at live poker. Although if video poker
dries up in the next few years (a prospect I don't see as likely), I'll
probably give live poker a shot. This might have no relationship at all
to whether YOU could make some other amount.

Inherent in my decision-making process was that I already have
considerable knowledge and experience at video poker and only a casual
knowledge of live poker. There are a large number of skills necessary to
succeed at video poker --- but I've already mastered many of them and
it's now a matter of working the system that works for me --- and always
looking to master new skills to augment what I already know. A
largely-different set of skills is necessary for live poker --- and I've
mastered few of them. Most other people have a different mix of
knowledge and experience between the two games. Or different
expectations about what "mastery" means or what would be a satisfactory
income.

If you're starting out and wish to make a sizeable income (however you
define that) while gambling, your decision-process is considerably
different. You're going to have to dispassionately analyze what it takes
at various games (possibly including blackjack and sports betting) and
what skills and interests you already have.
Although I'm a relative newcomer to this forum, I'm an "elder statesman"
video-poker wise --- although I'm younger than most of the other
so-called gurus and only started learning the game 11 years ago (I'm
still learning). I am trying to pass on what I know --- although clearly
a number of the techniques I advocate are meeting with a large amount of
resistance. But the fact remains that those techniques have worked very
well for me and several students have found they work pretty well for
them too.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]