vpFREE2 Forums

Questions about Bankroll

I did not "guarantee anything approaching success". What I stated
was under the assumption of Normally Disrtributed results, one can
be 90% sure that with $1,700 one can _play through_ 20,000 hands of
single line 25c PFDW. In this sense, there is a short term bankroll
requirement, and this is true even for a game with a negative
retrun. Of course, the long term bankroll for a negative return game
is potentially infinte.

True, you didn't guarantee anything. If, however, one were to take the
mathematical models of ER and variance to court, a judge might well rule
that there is an inherent promise of success when the "products" are used
by the consumer as a basis for play. And, in fact, they are designed
specifically as models for how to best achieve success against ER and
variance. So in a very strong sense, there is an implied promise of
success. If not, then why use such models as a strategic tool?

One of the problems is the implications that arise from their use. There
is an underlying assumption of both normal distribution long term and
normal variance long term. But in short term play the models don't hold
up. The question of what defines the differences between long and short
term have been discussed here many times, with varying conclusions (to no
one's satisfaction <g>), so I don't want to get into that.

The point I'm most eager to make is this: many players rely on these
models as a basis for their play, and in most cases that reliance is
beneficial because players extend their time and may benefit from positive
short term variance. But their use as a model for a minimum bankroll
requirement, ROR stats notwithstanding, are virtually nil. Variance is
thoroughly and completely unpredictable, short of long term approximations.

lb

Lawrence Boxer wrote:

One of the problems is the implications that arise from their (short
term models) use. There is an underlying assumption of both normal
distribution long term and normal variance long term. But in short
term play the models don't hold up. The question of what defines
the differences between long and short term have been discussed here
many times, with varying conclusions (to no one's satisfaction
<g>), so I don't want to get into that. ... Variance is
thoroughly and completely unpredictable, short of long term
approximations.

To some extent I get the feeling this discussion is being carried into
a unnecessarily precise realm.

I mean, I've seen damned few (any?) short-term models put forth for
consumption, although I shouldn't doubt there are some.

But the idea that you can't talk about funding requirements for play
of anything short of hundreds (or thousands) of hours is a bit too
restrictive. I wouldn't venture a meaningful amount for an
afternoon's play, but start talking about a weekend of active play
(say 20 hours or more) and I think some relevent numbers can be
surfaced with reasonable reliability.

···

------

The reason long-term risk of ruin bankrolls are stated over such a
sizable length of play is predominantly because of the large RF cycle
- a significant component of return. You'd expect that you'd be
talking 20 or more cycles before you even begin to have a moderately
reasonable confidence in the return derived from RF's in your play.

But when you make the outright assumption that in the downside case
you're not going to see a RF (or perhaps even a SF) in a given trip,
the balance of the hands that you're considering has a relatively
short cycle and the "long term" of those hands is FAR more modest.

You can make some far more reliable statements concerning expected
occurance of those hands. True, any "trip stake" requirement
calculation will need to allow a pretty wide berth for volatility
given the limited timeframe. Nonetheless, some reliable estimates can
be put forward within a stated degree of risk.

- Harry

But the idea that you can't talk about funding requirements for play
of anything short of hundreds (or thousands) of hours is a bit too
restrictive.

Harry, I do not seriously disagree with anything you've said. My
concern is to help newer players understand that by adopting play
stakes that seem to be cast in concrete and that seem to have an
implied guarantee, they may be making a serious error, due to the
unpredictability of variance. In most cases, taking a lot of money
with them means that they will lose a lot of money, when they could
just as easily take less, lose less, and have the same chances of
winning due to positive variance.

In most discussions of the role of variance, it's clear that it's
often misinterpreted as a constant, when in real life, we may know
roughly how much variance we'll see in the long term, but not where,
what, when--iow how it will be skewed. You allude to that, kind of,
in your closing paragraph.

So to cast minimum bankroll requirements in stone strikes me somewhat
misleading. There's no question that analysis of cost-of-play is
very useful, which basically judges cost under various circumstances
by the expected loss. From that, certain inferences can be made, but
to think of them as anything other than vague approximations is a
mistake, I think. Obviously, it takes money to play, and usually
more money to play more. But that's as far as it reliably goes.

Hopefully, I've made my concerns clear.

lb

http://www.jazbo.com/videopoker/

click on video poker

click on VP Probabilities

"The expectation of most popular video poker games is widely known,
and the variance is not a secret, but these two common measures are
not enough to estimate your short-term results. This article gives
insight into four popular games"

includes really useful graphs

I haven't read anything there YET, but this page/link has to be one
of my quicker "bookmarks" in recent memory.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "aaquad250" <aaquad250@y...> wrote:

http://www.jazbo.com/videopoker/

click on video poker

click on VP Probabilities

"The expectation of most popular video poker games is widely known,
and the variance is not a secret, but these two common measures are
not enough to estimate your short-term results. This article gives
insight into four popular games"

includes really useful graphs