vpFREE2 Forums

Question about VP VLTs

Harry,
Thanks for the information. That's the first clear concise explanation I've
read differentiating RNG and VLT VP.
Now for a few more questions.
When playing, is there anyway to determine whether you're playing a VLT game
without throwing away winning hands?
Is there a comprehensive list available of Casinos / Racinos that are VLT?
If one gambling location in a state has VLT, will they all be VLT or can they
vary? For example, I understand that slots have been added to several other
race tracks in NYS. Is it correct to assume they are all VLT?
Thanks
Joel

In a message dated 9/26/2004 11:41:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
pelotari1672@yahoo.com writes:

VLT vp machines, by definition, don't function off an RNG.
Instead, a
>central server pre-determines a win/lose result for each play, and
the
>amount of the win if appropriate. It can be thought of as the
>equivalent of a video scratch card. Whatever win comes up, the
>machine deals a hand that produces a result paying that win.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

With all respect to Harry, I believe the information previously given is
incorrect. The important factor is not whether the machines in a given
state are VLT's or stand-alones, the important factor is whether the casino
is permitted Class 3 machines or is restricted to Class 2. Class 2 machines
are actually bingo machines. When you spin the reels or draw a video poker
hand you are actually playing bingo. If your card wins winning symbols or a
winning hand displays on your machine. It is random in the sense that bingo
is random.

If you are playing a Class 3 machine, whether VLT or stand-alone the RNG
program works exactly the same. The only difference is that with a VLT the
RNG is running on a central server. However, this makes no difference to
the randomness. If you are playing an IGT, Bally, Sigma, etc. Class 3 video
poker machine the pay table will accurately show the potential return.

I will be researching this further in the next few weeks and will post if I
find I'm incorrect in any respect.

···

At 09:32 AM 09/26/2004, you wrote:

Harry,
Thanks for the information. That's the first clear concise explanation I've
read differentiating RNG and VLT VP.
Now for a few more questions.
When playing, is there anyway to determine whether you're playing a VLT game
without throwing away winning hands?
Is there a comprehensive list available of Casinos / Racinos that are VLT?
If one gambling location in a state has VLT, will they all be VLT or can they
vary? For example, I understand that slots have been added to several other
race tracks in NYS. Is it correct to assume they are all VLT?
Thanks
Joel

In a message dated 9/26/2004 11:41:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
pelotari1672@yahoo.com writes:

> VLT vp machines, by definition, don't function off an RNG.
> Instead, a
> >central server pre-determines a win/lose result for each play, and
> the
> >amount of the win if appropriate. It can be thought of as the
> >equivalent of a video scratch card. Whatever win comes up, the
> >machine deals a hand that produces a result paying that win.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bill....I do not understand your bingo analogy. Bingo truly is a
random game, as each numbered ball has an equal probability of being
drawn. If the central VLT server is programmed to spit out the
various winning combinations with predetermined frequencies, as in
class 2 machines, that is very different from bingo. It is, as Harry
said, more like a lottery scratch-off ticket. Or have I misread your
meaning?

Regards,
Perry

With all respect to Harry, I believe the information previously

given is

incorrect. The important factor is not whether the machines in a

given

state are VLT's or stand-alones, the important factor is whether

the casino

is permitted Class 3 machines or is restricted to Class 2. Class 2

machines

are actually bingo machines. When you spin the reels or draw a

video poker

hand you are actually playing bingo. If your card wins winning

symbols or a

winning hand displays on your machine. It is random in the sense

that bingo

is random.

If you are playing a Class 3 machine, whether VLT or stand-alone

the RNG

program works exactly the same. The only difference is that with a

VLT the

RNG is running on a central server. However, this makes no

difference to

the randomness. If you are playing an IGT, Bally, Sigma, etc. Class

3 video

poker machine the pay table will accurately show the potential

return.

I will be researching this further in the next few weeks and will

post if I

find I'm incorrect in any respect.

>Harry,
>Thanks for the information. That's the first clear concise

explanation I've

>read differentiating RNG and VLT VP.
>Now for a few more questions.
>When playing, is there anyway to determine whether you're playing

a VLT game

>without throwing away winning hands?
>Is there a comprehensive list available of Casinos / Racinos that

are VLT?

>If one gambling location in a state has VLT, will they all be VLT

or can they

>vary? For example, I understand that slots have been added to

several other

>race tracks in NYS. Is it correct to assume they are all VLT?
>Thanks
>Joel
>
>
>
>
>In a message dated 9/26/2004 11:41:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>pelotari1672@y... writes:
>
> > VLT vp machines, by definition, don't function off an RNG.
> > Instead, a
> > >central server pre-determines a win/lose result for each play,

and

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:

At 09:32 AM 09/26/2004, you wrote:
> > the
> > >amount of the win if appropriate. It can be thought of as the
> > >equivalent of a video scratch card. Whatever win comes up, the
> > >machine deals a hand that produces a result paying that win.
> >

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joel,

Right now, all machines at New York State tracks are VLTs. The
Seneca-Cayuga tribe is seeking to establish a class 3 gaming resort
at Monticello, and if that happens we'll probably see stand-alone
machines there.

Regards,
Perry

Harry,
Thanks for the information. That's the first clear concise

explanation I've

read differentiating RNG and VLT VP.
Now for a few more questions.
When playing, is there anyway to determine whether you're playing a

VLT game

without throwing away winning hands?
Is there a comprehensive list available of Casinos / Racinos that

are VLT?

If one gambling location in a state has VLT, will they all be VLT

or can they

vary? For example, I understand that slots have been added to

several other

race tracks in NYS. Is it correct to assume they are all VLT?
Thanks
Joel

In a message dated 9/26/2004 11:41:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
pelotari1672@y... writes:

> VLT vp machines, by definition, don't function off an RNG.
> Instead, a
> >central server pre-determines a win/lose result for each play,

and

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, joel0457@a... wrote:

> the
> >amount of the win if appropriate. It can be thought of as the
> >equivalent of a video scratch card. Whatever win comes up, the
> >machine deals a hand that produces a result paying that win.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It is not an analogy, it is a fact. Class 2 machines are linked to a
central server that is running many, many bingo games rapidly. Most (all?)
class 2 machines actually have a very small display that shows the bingo
card. If your card is a winner, the machine translates the win into a
display on the machine, i.e. 3 7's, a flush, etc. That's why in Washington
State what you discard appears to have no effect on the outcome of the
game. The hand displayed (or the extra indicator as has been described)
will adjust the result to match the bingo game. So in a Class 2 VP machine,
the pay table has no effect on return, it is the bingo game behind the
scenes that determines outcome. This phenomenon is not as obvious on Class
2 machines that model slots.

Class 2 games are Bingo, punchboards, and I think there is another. Casino
table games, video poker, slots are not permitted.

However, this all has nothing to do with whether the machine is a VLT or a
stand-alone. Washington State's VLT's are Class 2 machines, I believe
Delaware's VLT's are Class 3. Can anyone confirm this?

Hope this clears it up.

···

At 06:12 PM 09/26/2004, you wrote:

Bill....I do not understand your bingo analogy. Bingo truly is a
random game, as each numbered ball has an equal probability of being
drawn. If the central VLT server is programmed to spit out the
various winning combinations with predetermined frequencies, as in
class 2 machines, that is very different from bingo. It is, as Harry
said, more like a lottery scratch-off ticket. Or have I misread your
meaning?

Regards,
Perry

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:
> With all respect to Harry, I believe the information previously
given is
> incorrect. The important factor is not whether the machines in a
given
> state are VLT's or stand-alones, the important factor is whether
the casino
> is permitted Class 3 machines or is restricted to Class 2. Class 2
machines
> are actually bingo machines. When you spin the reels or draw a
video poker
> hand you are actually playing bingo. If your card wins winning
symbols or a
> winning hand displays on your machine. It is random in the sense
that bingo
> is random.
>
> If you are playing a Class 3 machine, whether VLT or stand-alone
the RNG
> program works exactly the same. The only difference is that with a
VLT the
> RNG is running on a central server. However, this makes no
difference to
> the randomness. If you are playing an IGT, Bally, Sigma, etc. Class
3 video
> poker machine the pay table will accurately show the potential
return.
>
> I will be researching this further in the next few weeks and will
post if I
> find I'm incorrect in any respect.
>
> At 09:32 AM 09/26/2004, you wrote:
> >Harry,
> >Thanks for the information. That's the first clear concise
explanation I've
> >read differentiating RNG and VLT VP.
> >Now for a few more questions.
> >When playing, is there anyway to determine whether you're playing
a VLT game
> >without throwing away winning hands?
> >Is there a comprehensive list available of Casinos / Racinos that
are VLT?
> >If one gambling location in a state has VLT, will they all be VLT
or can they
> >vary? For example, I understand that slots have been added to
several other
> >race tracks in NYS. Is it correct to assume they are all VLT?
> >Thanks
> >Joel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >In a message dated 9/26/2004 11:41:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> >pelotari1672@y... writes:
> >
> > > VLT vp machines, by definition, don't function off an RNG.
> > > Instead, a
> > > >central server pre-determines a win/lose result for each play,
and
> > > the
> > > >amount of the win if appropriate. It can be thought of as the
> > > >equivalent of a video scratch card. Whatever win comes up, the
> > > >machine deals a hand that produces a result paying that win.
> > >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for that clarification, Bill. I decided to do a little
digging on the internet. A Google search under "Class II Gaming" led
me to the website of Multimedia Games, Inc., where I found the
following:

Class II Games and Systems

The Company provides the Class II Native American gaming market with
linked, interactive electronic games and related online systems and
player stations. These games, systems and EPS include flexible gaming
platforms that enable Multimedia Games to operate and regularly
launch new game engines; flexible game engines that enable the
Company to display the same underlying bingo game in a variety of
ways; high-speed, interactive Class II bingo games designed and
developed by Multimedia Games that are intended to provide its end
users with an entertaining gaming experience; EPS that are linked via
Betnet, thereby enabling the Company to rapidly communicate its games
to end users, broaden end user participation in the same game
throughout the country and monitor the performance of its network in
real time, and information services that allow its customers to
monitor their gaming activities and to improve service to its end
users.

Multimedia Games' offering of high-speed, interactive Class II bingo
games consists of its Legacy platform of games, which includes
MegaMania, Flash 21 Bingo, Big Cash Bingo and People's Choice, and
the Company's New Generation platform of games, which is comprised of
MegaNanza, Reel Time Bingo and their related family of games.
Multimedia Games offers MegaBingo as part of its Class II product
offering, although its contribution to revenues has significantly
decreased as customers have migrated to the high-speed, interactive
market, which produces significantly greater revenue per square foot
of gaming hall floor space than MegaBingo and other forms of paper
bingo.

Class III Games and Systems

The Company sells or leases linked Class III video lottery systems to
Native American customers in the state of Washington and receives
back-office fees based on a share of the hold per day generated by
the player stations. Class III video lottery gaming in the state of
Washington is allowed pursuant to a compact between the state and
certain Native American tribes in that state. The compacts contain
the specifications for permissible video lottery systems including
only those video lottery terminals within the same gaming facility
may be linked with one another and the system must be cashless.

Multimedia Games' Class III systems in the state of Washington are
comprised of all the software and hardware necessary for operation
and are designed to be readily adaptable to the video lottery
requirements of jurisdictions outside that state. The Company's
hardware includes multiple servers that generate sets of electronic
lottery tickets and distribute them on demand to end users sitting at
terminals networked throughout a casino. As with its Class II gaming
systems, Multimedia Games' Class III back-office system allows it to
maintain details of ticket manufacture, distribution and sales, end
user information and the ability to monitor game system operation and
generate system reports.

(End of excerpt from Multimedia Games website)

Their site goes on to say that they are also the company providing
New York State with its VLT system.

So, according to the Multimedia site, Class II games are indeed bingo
games in various disguises, but Multimedia also makes Class III VLTs,
which, while run by a central server, would not be controlled by a
bingo game. So....the NEW question is.....for Class III VLTs, does
the central server use a random shuffle? Or is the server programmed
to produce certain winning hands with certain frequencies? Or can it
be one way in some states, and the other way in other states?

Regards,
Perry

It is not an analogy, it is a fact. Class 2 machines are linked to

a

central server that is running many, many bingo games rapidly. Most

(all?)

class 2 machines actually have a very small display that shows the

bingo

card. If your card is a winner, the machine translates the win into

a

display on the machine, i.e. 3 7's, a flush, etc. That's why in

Washington

State what you discard appears to have no effect on the outcome of

the

game. The hand displayed (or the extra indicator as has been

described)

will adjust the result to match the bingo game. So in a Class 2 VP

machine,

the pay table has no effect on return, it is the bingo game behind

the

scenes that determines outcome. This phenomenon is not as obvious

on Class

2 machines that model slots.

Class 2 games are Bingo, punchboards, and I think there is another.

Casino

table games, video poker, slots are not permitted.

However, this all has nothing to do with whether the machine is a

VLT or a

stand-alone. Washington State's VLT's are Class 2 machines, I

believe

Delaware's VLT's are Class 3. Can anyone confirm this?

Hope this clears it up.

>Bill....I do not understand your bingo analogy. Bingo truly is a
>random game, as each numbered ball has an equal probability of

being

>drawn. If the central VLT server is programmed to spit out the
>various winning combinations with predetermined frequencies, as in
>class 2 machines, that is very different from bingo. It is, as

Harry

>said, more like a lottery scratch-off ticket. Or have I misread

your

>meaning?
>
>Regards,
>Perry
>
>
> > With all respect to Harry, I believe the information previously
>given is
> > incorrect. The important factor is not whether the machines in a
>given
> > state are VLT's or stand-alones, the important factor is whether
>the casino
> > is permitted Class 3 machines or is restricted to Class 2.

Class 2

>machines
> > are actually bingo machines. When you spin the reels or draw a
>video poker
> > hand you are actually playing bingo. If your card wins winning
>symbols or a
> > winning hand displays on your machine. It is random in the sense
>that bingo
> > is random.
> >
> > If you are playing a Class 3 machine, whether VLT or stand-alone
>the RNG
> > program works exactly the same. The only difference is that

with a

>VLT the
> > RNG is running on a central server. However, this makes no
>difference to
> > the randomness. If you are playing an IGT, Bally, Sigma, etc.

Class

>3 video
> > poker machine the pay table will accurately show the potential
>return.
> >
> > I will be researching this further in the next few weeks and

will

>post if I
> > find I'm incorrect in any respect.
> >
> > >Harry,
> > >Thanks for the information. That's the first clear concise
>explanation I've
> > >read differentiating RNG and VLT VP.
> > >Now for a few more questions.
> > >When playing, is there anyway to determine whether you're

playing

>a VLT game
> > >without throwing away winning hands?
> > >Is there a comprehensive list available of Casinos / Racinos

that

>are VLT?
> > >If one gambling location in a state has VLT, will they all be

VLT

>or can they
> > >vary? For example, I understand that slots have been added to
>several other
> > >race tracks in NYS. Is it correct to assume they are all VLT?
> > >Thanks
> > >Joel
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >In a message dated 9/26/2004 11:41:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > >pelotari1672@y... writes:
> > >
> > > > VLT vp machines, by definition, don't function off an RNG.
> > > > Instead, a
> > > > >central server pre-determines a win/lose result for each

play,

>and
> > > > the
> > > > >amount of the win if appropriate. It can be thought of as

the

> > > > >equivalent of a video scratch card. Whatever win comes

up, the

> > > > >machine deals a hand that produces a result paying that

win.

> > > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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···

-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:

At 06:12 PM 09/26/2004, you wrote:
>--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:
> > At 09:32 AM 09/26/2004, you wrote:
>
> *
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the information that Washington State is Class 3. However, the
VP does not appear to be dealt randomly from a 52 card deck. It would not
have to be so if the compacts do not require conformance to Nevada or some
other controlling jurisdiction's regulations.

So we are really back to the original point. If the manufacturer of the VLT
sells in Nevada you can be sure it conforms to Nevada regulations, i.e.
works exactly like the hand-dealt game it mirrors. Other manufacturers do
not have to follow this stricture if the jurisdiction does not require it.

Again, there is nothing intrinsically non-random about VLT's, VLT vs
traditional simply denotes whether the machine gets instructions from a
central server or not.

···

At 08:31 PM 09/26/2004, you wrote:

Thanks for that clarification, Bill. I decided to do a little
digging on the internet. A Google search under "Class II Gaming" led
me to the website of Multimedia Games, Inc., where I found the
following:

Class II Games and Systems

The Company provides the Class II Native American gaming market with
linked, interactive electronic games and related online systems and
player stations. These games, systems and EPS include flexible gaming
platforms that enable Multimedia Games to operate and regularly
launch new game engines; flexible game engines that enable the
Company to display the same underlying bingo game in a variety of
ways; high-speed, interactive Class II bingo games designed and
developed by Multimedia Games that are intended to provide its end
users with an entertaining gaming experience; EPS that are linked via
Betnet, thereby enabling the Company to rapidly communicate its games
to end users, broaden end user participation in the same game
throughout the country and monitor the performance of its network in
real time, and information services that allow its customers to
monitor their gaming activities and to improve service to its end
users.

Multimedia Games' offering of high-speed, interactive Class II bingo
games consists of its Legacy platform of games, which includes
MegaMania, Flash 21 Bingo, Big Cash Bingo and People's Choice, and
the Company's New Generation platform of games, which is comprised of
MegaNanza, Reel Time Bingo and their related family of games.
Multimedia Games offers MegaBingo as part of its Class II product
offering, although its contribution to revenues has significantly
decreased as customers have migrated to the high-speed, interactive
market, which produces significantly greater revenue per square foot
of gaming hall floor space than MegaBingo and other forms of paper
bingo.

Class III Games and Systems

The Company sells or leases linked Class III video lottery systems to
Native American customers in the state of Washington and receives
back-office fees based on a share of the hold per day generated by
the player stations. Class III video lottery gaming in the state of
Washington is allowed pursuant to a compact between the state and
certain Native American tribes in that state. The compacts contain
the specifications for permissible video lottery systems including
only those video lottery terminals within the same gaming facility
may be linked with one another and the system must be cashless.

Multimedia Games' Class III systems in the state of Washington are
comprised of all the software and hardware necessary for operation
and are designed to be readily adaptable to the video lottery
requirements of jurisdictions outside that state. The Company's
hardware includes multiple servers that generate sets of electronic
lottery tickets and distribute them on demand to end users sitting at
terminals networked throughout a casino. As with its Class II gaming
systems, Multimedia Games' Class III back-office system allows it to
maintain details of ticket manufacture, distribution and sales, end
user information and the ability to monitor game system operation and
generate system reports.

(End of excerpt from Multimedia Games website)

Their site goes on to say that they are also the company providing
New York State with its VLT system.

So, according to the Multimedia site, Class II games are indeed bingo
games in various disguises, but Multimedia also makes Class III VLTs,
which, while run by a central server, would not be controlled by a
bingo game. So....the NEW question is.....for Class III VLTs, does
the central server use a random shuffle? Or is the server programmed
to produce certain winning hands with certain frequencies? Or can it
be one way in some states, and the other way in other states?

Regards,
Perry

– In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c…> wrote:
> It is not an analogy, it is a fact. Class 2 machines are linked to
a
> central server that is running many, many bingo games rapidly. Most
(all?)
> class 2 machines actually have a very small display that shows the
bingo
> card. If your card is a winner, the machine translates the win into
a
> display on the machine, i.e. 3 7's, a flush, etc. That's why in
Washington
> State what you discard appears to have no effect on the outcome of
the
> game. The hand displayed (or the extra indicator as has been
described)
> will adjust the result to match the bingo game. So in a Class 2 VP
machine,
> the pay table has no effect on return, it is the bingo game behind
the
> scenes that determines outcome. This phenomenon is not as obvious
on Class
> 2 machines that model slots.
>
> Class 2 games are Bingo, punchboards, and I think there is another.
Casino
> table games, video poker, slots are not permitted.
>
> However, this all has nothing to do with whether the machine is a
VLT or a
> stand-alone. Washington State's VLT's are Class 2 machines, I
believe
> Delaware's VLT's are Class 3. Can anyone confirm this?
>
> Hope this clears it up.
>
> At 06:12 PM 09/26/2004, you wrote:
> >Bill…I do not understand your bingo analogy. Bingo truly is a
> >random game, as each numbered ball has an equal probability of
being
> >drawn. If the central VLT server is programmed to spit out the
> >various winning combinations with predetermined frequencies, as in
> >class 2 machines, that is very different from bingo. It is, as
Harry
> >said, more like a lottery scratch-off ticket. Or have I misread
your
> >meaning?
> >
> >Regards,
> >Perry
> >
> >
> >— In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c…> wrote:
> > > With all respect to Harry, I believe the information previously
> >given is
> > > incorrect. The important factor is not whether the machines in a
> >given
> > > state are VLT's or stand-alones, the important factor is whether
> >the casino
> > > is permitted Class 3 machines or is restricted to Class 2.
Class 2
> >machines
> > > are actually bingo machines. When you spin the reels or draw a
> >video poker
> > > hand you are actually playing bingo. If your card wins winning
> >symbols or a
> > > winning hand displays on your machine. It is random in the sense
> >that bingo
> > > is random.
> > >
> > > If you are playing a Class 3 machine, whether VLT or stand-alone
> >the RNG
> > > program works exactly the same. The only difference is that
with a
> >VLT the
> > > RNG is running on a central server. However, this makes no
> >difference to
> > > the randomness. If you are playing an IGT, Bally, Sigma, etc.
Class
> >3 video
> > > poker machine the pay table will accurately show the potential
> >return.
> > >
> > > I will be researching this further in the next few weeks and
will
> >post if I
> > > find I'm incorrect in any respect.
> > >
> > > At 09:32 AM 09/26/2004, you wrote:
> > > >Harry,
> > > >Thanks for the information. That's the first clear concise
> >explanation I've
> > > >read differentiating RNG and VLT VP.
> > > >Now for a few more questions.
> > > >When playing, is there anyway to determine whether you're
playing
> >a VLT game
> > > >without throwing away winning hands?
> > > >Is there a comprehensive list available of Casinos / Racinos
that
> >are VLT?
> > > >If one gambling location in a state has VLT, will they all be
VLT
> >or can they
> > > >vary? For example, I understand that slots have been added to
> >several other
> > > >race tracks in NYS. Is it correct to assume they are all VLT?
> > > >Thanks
> > > >Joel
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >In a message dated 9/26/2004 11:41:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > >pelotari1672@y… writes:
> > > >
> > > > > VLT vp machines, by definition, don't function off an RNG.
> > > > > Instead, a
> > > > > >central server pre-determines a win/lose result for each
play,
> >and
> > > > > the
> > > > > >amount of the win if appropriate. It can be thought of as
the
> > > > > >equivalent of a video scratch card. Whatever win comes
up, the
> > > > > >machine deals a hand that produces a result paying that
win.
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >vpFREE Links:
>
><<http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm>http://members.cox.net/vpfree/L
inks.htm>http://members.cox.net/vpfre
e/Links.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

After following this thread for a while I have come to the conclusion that the class 3 devices are random, but the games have a skill level of Zero, you may as well play a slot machine. The Video Poker that is offered is only for show.

Regards
A.P.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Bill Coleman
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 10:26 AM
  Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Question about VP VLTs

  Thanks for the information that Washington State is Class 3. However, the
  VP does not appear to be dealt randomly from a 52 card deck. It would not
  have to be so if the compacts do not require conformance to Nevada or some
  other controlling jurisdiction's regulations.

  So we are really back to the original point. If the manufacturer of the VLT
  sells in Nevada you can be sure it conforms to Nevada regulations, i.e.
  works exactly like the hand-dealt game it mirrors. Other manufacturers do
  not have to follow this stricture if the jurisdiction does not require it.

  Again, there is nothing intrinsically non-random about VLT's, VLT vs
  traditional simply denotes whether the machine gets instructions from a
  central server or not.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have been following this discussion with interest since I am going to have to write about it eventually. I recently talked at length with a couple of head guys at IGT who are personally involved with machines, both VP and slot.

Someone on this list wrote:

<<> VLT vp machines, by definition, don't function off an RNG.

Instead, a
>central server pre-determines a win/lose result for each play, and
the
>amount of the win if appropriate. It can be thought of as the
>equivalent of a video scratch card. Whatever win comes up, the
>machine deals a hand that produces a result paying that win.>>

The IGT guys told me that this concept is their biggest problem in getting into Class 2 machines, which they are just starting to do.

I used to say that if you saw a VP machine made by a Nevada slot machine manufacturer, even in another state, you could assume that it operated with a RNG that was random and what we call "fair." In other words, the machine operated just like a properly shuffled deck of cards. (I'm not going to discuss how random is random, whether it is pseudo-random, etc. I think most math people agree that the VP machines in NV are random enough that by using proper strategy you could eventually achieve very close to the theoretical EV). Of course, I would mention that it is possible for an extremely skilled computer person to tamper or change chips - and that there are some jurisdictions where loose (or none) regulatory measures would make that more likely. This would include Indian casinos, cruise ships, foreign casinos, etc. However, in most REGULATED areas in the US , like MS, AC, IN, etc. you could be fairly certain that you were playing a fair game.

Now that IGT - and perhaps other less major manufacturers - are starting to get into Class 2 machines, the waters are becoming extremely muddy. Many of the states who are now coming out with casinos only allow Class 2 machines, what we call bingo-type central determination systems. I was told that IGT HAS NOT yet been able to make a Class 2 machine that is random in our sense of the word, meaning we could use our strategy charts to achieve an eventual theoretical EV, that it operates just like a deck of cards. They ARE random in the general sense that someone isn't in a central room and can control a particular machine played by a particular person. There are a lot of different results that are randomly picked from for one particular hand. This is the general way slot machines are random. But the chip has been programmed to give a certain payback that the casino ordered.

The problem is that IGT - and perhaps some other manufacturers - have been able to make their Class 2 machines LOOK like the Class 3 VP we are used to although do not operate like them - although they are operating inside the legal boundaries that the state has given them. So just looking at a machine is no longer a safe way to judge VP.

IGT is very concerned about this problem - but so far has not been able to keep within the state laws and make them "fair" as we refer to it. And there are other problems - some of the states make laws that aren't very clear - or they keep changing them.

For now, here would be my PERSONAL rule of thumb. States that had casinos before the introduction of regular Indian casinos (they might have been just bingo halls, possibly with some weird pull-tab machines), I feel safe in playing in now. These would be states that have Class 3 machines - New Jersey, NV, MS, IN, and some other states with riverboats. I would not feel comfortable playing in any states that have only Class 2 gaming, i.e., racinos, Indian casinos.

This is not to say that all Indian casinos are "unsafe" to play in. Some states seem to have both Class 3 and Class 2 machines. There are some, i.e., in CA and CT, that have IGT games that seem to be okay - and perhaps they are. I just can't be sure.

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jean.....your message throws an interesting twist into this matter.
As I understand the Nevada regulations, any manufacturer who makes
machines for use in Nevada must not make any machines for use
ANYWHERE that do meet Nevada specifications. Given that Nevada
regulations require that video poker games utilize a "random"
shuffle, and given that the outcomes on Class II video poker games
are actually determined by a bingo game, wouldn't IGT be jeopardizing
its Nevada business if it came out with Class II video poker games?

You also stated that IGT has been able to make their Class II video
poker games look like their Class III video poker games. Are you
saying that IGT already HAS Class II video poker games in use in some
states?

Regards,
Perry

I have been following this discussion with interest since I am

going to have to write about it eventually. I recently talked at
length with a couple of head guys at IGT who are personally involved
with machines, both VP and slot.

Someone on this list wrote:

<<> VLT vp machines, by definition, don't function off an RNG.
> Instead, a
> >central server pre-determines a win/lose result for each play,

and

> the
> >amount of the win if appropriate. It can be thought of as the
> >equivalent of a video scratch card. Whatever win comes up, the
> >machine deals a hand that produces a result paying that win.>>

The IGT guys told me that this concept is their biggest problem in

getting into Class 2 machines, which they are just starting to do.

I used to say that if you saw a VP machine made by a Nevada slot

machine manufacturer, even in another state, you could assume that it
operated with a RNG that was random and what we call "fair." In
other words, the machine operated just like a properly shuffled deck
of cards. (I'm not going to discuss how random is random, whether it
is pseudo-random, etc. I think most math people agree that the VP
machines in NV are random enough that by using proper strategy you
could eventually achieve very close to the theoretical EV). Of
course, I would mention that it is possible for an extremely skilled
computer person to tamper or change chips - and that there are some
jurisdictions where loose (or none) regulatory measures would make
that more likely. This would include Indian casinos, cruise ships,
foreign casinos, etc. However, in most REGULATED areas in the US ,
like MS, AC, IN, etc. you could be fairly certain that you were
playing a fair game.

Now that IGT - and perhaps other less major manufacturers - are

starting to get into Class 2 machines, the waters are becoming
extremely muddy. Many of the states who are now coming out with
casinos only allow Class 2 machines, what we call bingo-type central
determination systems. I was told that IGT HAS NOT yet been able to
make a Class 2 machine that is random in our sense of the word,
meaning we could use our strategy charts to achieve an eventual
theoretical EV, that it operates just like a deck of cards. They ARE
random in the general sense that someone isn't in a central room and
can control a particular machine played by a particular person.
There are a lot of different results that are randomly picked from
for one particular hand. This is the general way slot machines are
random. But the chip has been programmed to give a certain payback
that the casino ordered.

The problem is that IGT - and perhaps some other manufacturers -

have been able to make their Class 2 machines LOOK like the Class 3
VP we are used to although do not operate like them - although they
are operating inside the legal boundaries that the state has given
them. So just looking at a machine is no longer a safe way to judge
VP.

IGT is very concerned about this problem - but so far has not been

able to keep within the state laws and make them "fair" as we refer
to it. And there are other problems - some of the states make laws
that aren't very clear - or they keep changing them.

For now, here would be my PERSONAL rule of thumb. States that had

casinos before the introduction of regular Indian casinos (they might
have been just bingo halls, possibly with some weird pull-tab
machines), I feel safe in playing in now. These would be states that
have Class 3 machines - New Jersey, NV, MS, IN, and some other states
with riverboats. I would not feel comfortable playing in any states
that have only Class 2 gaming, i.e., racinos, Indian casinos.

This is not to say that all Indian casinos are "unsafe" to play

in. Some states seem to have both Class 3 and Class 2 machines.
There are some, i.e., in CA and CT, that have IGT games that seem to
be okay - and perhaps they are. I just can't be sure.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@f...> wrote:

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<<You also stated that IGT has been able to make their Class II video
poker games look like their Class III video poker games. Are you
saying that IGT already HAS Class II video poker games in use in some
states?>>

I'm not sure if they are actually in casinos yet - although I think there have been reports saying that is happening.

Has anyone personally seen (or played) an IGT VP machine that looks like a NV IGT machine, but is in a state that only allows Class 2 machines? I know there are VP machines in Class 2 only states - but I really would like to know if any are manufactured by IGT AND/OR if they look like NV ones - and the only way you would know they aren't like NV is by the way they play, i.e., card matches, etc.

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes they are in Washingtons casino's

Patrick

···

Jean Scott <QueenofComps@frugalgambler.biz> wrote:
<<You also stated that IGT has been able to make their Class II video
poker games look like their Class III video poker games. Are you
saying that IGT already HAS Class II video poker games in use in some
states?>>

I'm not sure if they are actually in casinos yet - although I think there have been reports saying that is happening.

Has anyone personally seen (or played) an IGT VP machine that looks like a NV IGT machine, but is in a state that only allows Class 2 machines? I know there are VP machines in Class 2 only states - but I really would like to know if any are manufactured by IGT AND/OR if they look like NV ones - and the only way you would know they aren't like NV is by the way they play, i.e., card matches, etc.

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jean,
The Hard Rock in Tampa, FL is full of them. They were there from
the day the facility opened earlier this year.

Yes they are in Washingtons casino's

Patrick

Jean Scott <QueenofComps@f...> wrote:
<<You also stated that IGT has been able to make their Class II

video

poker games look like their Class III video poker games. Are you
saying that IGT already HAS Class II video poker games in use in

some

states?>>

I'm not sure if they are actually in casinos yet - although I

think there have been reports saying that is happening.

Has anyone personally seen (or played) an IGT VP machine that

looks like a NV IGT machine, but is in a state that only allows
Class 2 machines? I know there are VP machines in Class 2 only
states - but I really would like to know if any are manufactured by
IGT AND/OR if they look like NV ones - and the only way you would
know they aren't like NV is by the way they play, i.e., card
matches, etc.

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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Service.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, patrick <pat90218@y...> wrote:

CLOSEOUT PRICES ON NEW ELECTRONICS HOUSEWARES AND MORE
www.patrickswholesalewarehouse.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jean Scott wrote: “I'm not sure if they are actually in casinos yet -
although I think there have been reports saying that is happening.”

Why not ask IGT? And, if you can, please us know their answer/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<<Why not ask IGT? And, if you can, please us know their answer/>>

I have been talking to IGT executives and will be doing so next week at the G2E gaming convention. I'm finding it difficult to get facts because things are changing so fast.

But by the responses on this list, it looks like there ARE IGT machines in Washington and Florida that look like regular NV machines but are not random in the sense we use the word. I would appreciate other reports to verify this information, both in those two states, and in any others. I want reports from people who actually looked for the company name on the machines. Multi Media is one company that is big into Class 2 machines.

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]