Howdy
?
So far I have not seen mentioned two unwanted attractions. The first is the annoying sound the machine makes if you hit a biggy. Of course to the winner it may sound like a joyful noise.
?
Second.. some will take a picture of the momentous ocassion.. Using a flash camera is a no no anyway. Personally I use a cell phone.
?
Grumpy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BANDSTAND54 wrote:
So far I have not seen mentioned two unwanted attractions. The
first is the annoying sound the machine makes if you hit a biggy.
Of course to the winner it may sound like a joyful noise.
Immediately press the 2nd hold button, which will bring up the
paytable screen and temporarily stop all or part of the sound. The
hand screen (and sound) will return after a minute or so. Repeat.
I tend to delay the return to the hand by stepping through the
paytable with a button press once around every 30 seconds ("bet
up"/"bet down" ... 2nd and 3rd hold buttons IIRC).
- H.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:>
Immediately press the 2nd hold button, which will bring up the
paytable screen and temporarily stop all or part of the sound. The
hand screen (and sound) will return after a minute or so. Repeat.I tend to delay the return to the hand by stepping through the
paytable with a button press once around every 30 seconds ("bet
up"/"bet down" ... 2nd and 3rd hold buttons IIRC).- H.
Thanks, Harry. This has been a source of worry for me for some time (I only wish that I
were made worried a lot more often...LOL). I was not aware that one could do this.
..... bl
Over the last few years I have heard a couple of differing opinions on how the "cards" are chosen by the RNG.
The latest one was posted here a couple of days ago and said that:
the rng is continuously shuffling
when you press DEAL , at that instant this correlates to a number which correlates to five cards which display on the screen
while you decide what to do the RNG continues to shuffle
when you choose your holds, this correlates to a number which displays the next cards
Questions:
a) do we know how many cards are keyed to the number when you press DEAL - in other words, does that bring up five cards that are "together" or does it bring up the next five "shuffles" that the RNG is cycling through?
b) similarly, when you discard are the next 1, 2, etc cards "together" or are they each individual random results of the next 1, 2 etc shuffles?
I have had "experts" insist to me that:
a) there are five cards "behind" the five you have chosen that will only appear in that one spot if you discard
b) there are five cards "waiting" that will appear in order wherever you discard, in other words, that ten cards are prechosen for that hand - or that there are five cards "shuffling" that will appear when you discard
I am very curious about this - as it seems even that much more difficult if you think that while you are staring at the 4 to a Royal, or 3 Aces or whatever, that it is *not* already determined whether or not you will get that Royal, and that all you have to do is to push the button and find out - but that it is the unknown timing of when you end up pushing the Deal button, and simply Luck that will determine. So you can't think , "Oh, I would have gotten this or that" as it changes with every instant that goes by.
And for those of you that know these answers - how do you know? Is it because the gaming companies publish how the machines are working as they evolve?
Thanks in advance,
Valerie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"I have had "experts" insist to me that:
a) there are five cards "behind" the five you have chosen that will only appear in that one spot if you discard
b) there are five cards "waiting" that will appear in order wherever you discard, in other words, that ten cards are prechosen for that hand - or that there are five cards "shuffling" that will appear when you discard"
This information was true in the past but it is not true for most machines today.
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
From: vpollard@socal.rr.com
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:42:18 -0800
Subject: [vpFREE] a final clarifying question about RNGOver the last few years I have heard a couple of differing opinions on how the "cards" are chosen by the RNG.
The latest one was posted here a couple of days ago and said that:the rng is continuously shuffling
when you press DEAL , at that instant this correlates to a number which correlates to five cards which display on the screen
while you decide what to do the RNG continues to shuffle
when you choose your holds, this correlates to a number which displays the next cardsQuestions:
a) do we know how many cards are keyed to the number when you press DEAL - in other words, does that bring up five cards that are "together" or does it bring up the next five "shuffles" that the RNG is cycling through?
b) similarly, when you discard are the next 1, 2, etc cards "together" or are they each individual random results of the next 1, 2 etc shuffles?
I have had "experts" insist to me that:
a) there are five cards "behind" the five you have chosen that will only appear in that one spot if you discard
b) there are five cards "waiting" that will appear in order wherever you discard, in other words, that ten cards are prechosen for that hand - or that there are five cards "shuffling" that will appear when you discardI am very curious about this - as it seems even that much more difficult if you think that while you are staring at the 4 to a Royal, or 3 Aces or whatever, that it is *not* already determined whether or not you will get that Royal, and that all you have to do is to push the button and find out - but that it is the unknown timing of when you end up pushing the Deal button, and simply Luck that will determine. So you can't think , "Oh, I would have gotten this or that" as it changes with every instant that goes by.
And for those of you that know these answers - how do you know? Is it because the gaming companies publish how the machines are working as they evolve?
Thanks in advance,
Valerie[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
on how the "cards" are chosen by the RNG.
Here is a link to a March 2006 article in Casino City Times by John
Brokupp that I think answers your questions. It is based on an
interview with John Daley who was (still is?) IGT's Director of Video
Poker.
http://brokopp.casinocitytimes.com/articles/25354.html
Don
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Valerie Pollard" <vpollard@...> wrote:
Over the last few years I have heard a couple of differing opinions
"Here is a link to a March 2006 article in Casino City Times by John
Brokupp that I think answers your questions"
Thanks, Don
That article really did answer my questions. I wonder why, if they are trying to simulate an actual 52-card deck, that they choose to have it continue shuffling while you are deciding what to hold.
In "real life" that deck would be sitting in the dealer's hand - can you imagine in real life poker, if the dealer continuously shuffled while the players decided whether to bet, raise, or fold? I guess it's just as random, but in a different way.
Valerie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am almost tempted to cover the screen so onlookers can't see it. But
out of a fear that casino staff might think that as part of potential
tampering I just sit there in the spotlight, which I do not like at all.
So where do I buy your book?
Very helpful info, as always. Thank you.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:
Immediately press the 2nd hold button, which will bring up the
paytable screen and temporarily stop all or part of the sound. The
hand screen (and sound) will return after a minute or so. Repeat.
Valerie,
I have answered this a number of times, including after that posting. In a nutshell, when the deal button is pressed the RNG selects 1 card. It then selects 4 more. While you are deciding what to do it continues to select numbers (between 1 and 52) and discard them. When you press the Draw button it selects any needed cards 1 at a time.
Some of the things you've been told were true 20 years ago but have not been for over 10.
Bill
At 07:42 AM 1/13/2009, you wrote:
Over the last few years I have heard a couple of differing opinions on how the "cards" are chosen by the RNG.
The latest one was posted here a couple of days ago and said that:the rng is continuously shuffling
when you press DEAL , at that instant this correlates to a number which correlates to five cards which display on the screen
while you decide what to do the RNG continues to shuffle
when you choose your holds, this correlates to a number which displays the next cardsQuestions:
a) do we know how many cards are keyed to the number when you press DEAL - in other words, does that bring up five cards that are "together" or does it bring up the next five "shuffles" that the RNG is cycling through?
b) similarly, when you discard are the next 1, 2, etc cards "together" or are they each individual random results of the next 1, 2 etc shuffles?
I have had "experts" insist to me that:
a) there are five cards "behind" the five you have chosen that will only appear in that one spot if you discard
b) there are five cards "waiting" that will appear in order wherever you discard, in other words, that ten cards are prechosen for that hand - or that there are five cards "shuffling" that will appear when you discardI am very curious about this - as it seems even that much more difficult if you think that while you are staring at the 4 to a Royal, or 3 Aces or whatever, that it is *not* already determined whether or not you will get that Royal, and that all you have to do is to push the button and find out - but that it is the unknown timing of when you end up pushing the Deal button, and simply Luck that will determine. So you can't think , "Oh, I would have gotten this or that" as it changes with every instant that goes by.
And for those of you that know these answers - how do you know? Is it because the gaming companies publish how the machines are working as they evolve?
Thanks in advance,
Valerie[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
Previously the cards were waiting for you to make a selection (10 cards
picked the first time you hit deal)
According to Bob Dancer (who worked with the casino's and gaming companies)
this is no longer true. Once you hit deal the rng stops the shuffle and
gives you the first 5 cards. While you are deciding what to the rng is
shuffling the remaining 27 cards
waiting for you to hit deal again.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Valerie Pollard <vpollard@socal.rr.com>wrote:
Over the last few years I have heard a couple of differing opinions on
how the "cards" are chosen by the RNG.
The latest one was posted here a couple of days ago and said that:the rng is continuously shuffling
when you press DEAL , at that instant this correlates to a number which
correlates to five cards which display on the screen
while you decide what to do the RNG continues to shuffle
when you choose your holds, this correlates to a number which displays the
next cardsQuestions:
a) do we know how many cards are keyed to the number when you press DEAL -
in other words, does that bring up five cards that are "together" or does it
bring up the next five "shuffles" that the RNG is cycling through?b) similarly, when you discard are the next 1, 2, etc cards "together" or
are they each individual random results of the next 1, 2 etc shuffles?I have had "experts" insist to me that:
a) there are five cards "behind" the five you have chosen that will only
appear in that one spot if you discard
b) there are five cards "waiting" that will appear in order wherever you
discard, in other words, that ten cards are prechosen for that hand - or
that there are five cards "shuffling" that will appear when you discardI am very curious about this - as it seems even that much more difficult if
you think that while you are staring at the 4 to a Royal, or 3 Aces or
whatever, that it is *not* already determined whether or not you will get
that Royal, and that all you have to do is to push the button and find out -
but that it is the unknown timing of when you end up pushing the Deal
button, and simply Luck that will determine. So you can't think , "Oh, I
would have gotten this or that" as it changes with every instant that goes
by.And for those of you that know these answers - how do you know? Is it
because the gaming companies publish how the machines are working as they
evolve?Thanks in advance,
Valerie[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The RNG is not shuffling cards. It is computing numbers between 0 and 1, using a numerical
pseudo-random algorithm.
.....bl
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Zelisko" <szelisk@...> wrote:
Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
Bill wrote,
"I have answered this a number of times, including after that posting.
In a nutshell, when the deal button is pressed the RNG selects 1
card. It then selects 4 more. While you are deciding what to do it
continues to select numbers (between 1 and 52) and discard them. When
you press the Draw button it selects any needed cards 1 at a time.
Some of the things you've been told were true 20 years ago but have
not been for over 10."
Thank you, Bill.
Valerie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bl wrote,
"The RNG is not shuffling cards. It is computing numbers between 0 and 1, using a numerical pseudo-random algorithm."
But isn't that supposed to equate with what would be happening if the cards were being shuffled? (For those of us who are unable to think well in terms of algorithms...) As far as moving the numbers around to randomize the possiblity of the virtual "cards" we see on the screen will appear?
Valerie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But isn't that supposed to equate with what would be happening if the cards were being
shuffled?
Valerie
Yes. Absolutely. I was just picking a nit. My apologies.
..... bl
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Valerie Pollard" <vpollard@...> wrote:
Valerie Pollard wrote:
Bill wrote,
"I have answered this a number of times, including after that
posting.
In a nutshell, when the deal button is pressed the RNG selects 1
card. It then selects 4 more. While you are deciding what to do it
continues to select numbers (between 1 and 52) and discard them.
When you press the Draw button it selects any needed cards 1 at a
time.
Some of the things you've been told were true 20 years ago but have
not been for over 10."
Thank you, Bill.
Valerie
Valerie,
I'll offer up a bit more. I imagine that for someone (perhaps
yourself) with your curiosity this will raise questions about exactly
what an RNG is and how it functions. What makes it random? If it
isn't random, what prevents it from being manipulated? (how might it
be manipulated?)
Here's the essence of an RNG. It doesn't describe exactly the RNG
within a vp machine ... but all such RNG's operate on similar mechanisms.
First, it's rare that a machine will have a true RNG. Such a device
is only random if it's based upon a natural random phenomenon -- say
atmospheric noise (lightning discharges and such). For highly
sensitive scientific purposes, there are such devices. There's even
an internet service that relays such info.
But for general purposes, applications rely upon pseudo-random number
generators (pRNG). These take advantage mathematical calculations
which generate a series of numbers having no outward order or
discernible "non-randomness" (there are very precise statistical tests
for this) over a limited (lengthy) period of time, yet that over the
very long haul actually repeat themselves.
------
Here's a hypothetical means by which to generate such a series. You
start with an 8 digit number and square it. Take the resulting 16 or
17 digit number and select the 8 most-centered digits. Those digits
run 1-99,999,999. Divide the result by 100 million. You now get
distinct values between 0 and 1.
We want to use this fractional number to generate a value between 1
and 52 (add additional values for one or more Jokers in the deck).
Multiply the fractional value by 52, and round the result up to the
next integer. This produces a value between 1 and 52, which we then
can translate into a specific card value for the deal or draw.
When everything is said and done, take the final 8 digit number,
square it again, and proceed to produce the next card value.
------
The "randomness" of the above method hinges on the fact that in
selecting center-most digits, it's near impossible to infer back to
the 16/17 digit number that yielded them. Further, because the digits
from the multiplication of two 8 digit number are so diverse, you look
for no discernible pattern in the sequence of final 8 digit numbers.
(And, even if you should, you have little if any way of mapping the
final cards back to those final 8 digit numbers).
Things are randomized further by keeping the pRNG running non-stop
between the deal/draw. Values are repeatedly generated and thrown
away until one is needed to identify a card for the deal/draw.
------
But the truth is that if you knew the original 8-digit number used to
start the sequence (referred to as a "seed"), you could identify each
value that would successively be produced by the pRNG. For this
reason, the seed is varied with each machine start. Perhaps by using
the digits representing the current date and time (including
fractional seconds).
------
There's an anecdote of a small Canadian casino (I believe) that seeded
it's machines with a fixed value at each machine startup, and for
which the RNG didn't cycle between plays. The consequence was that
the same combinations were displayed for each play in succession from
the machine start up.
If I recall the gist of the story correctly, someone discerned these
facts and played through a period of play at minimum bet, starting
from when the casino opened it's door, carefully noting each result.
They came back another day, at opening, and varied their wager so that
they were at max-bet only on winning combinations. (In this case, I
believe a slot machine was at hand, but don't recall for sure.)
------
You can look for the pRNG's employed in vp and slot machines to be
more robust (complex) than what I've outlined, but the gist is the same.
I'll also guarantee that companies such as IGT employ very substantial
safeguards to ensure that it's near impossible to tamper with the code
employed within the machine.
If I understand things correctly, the manufacturers allow the state
casino commissions to tap into the sequence of random numbers
generated, so that using their own equipment they can confirm via
statistical tests the random approximation of values generated by the
pRNG -- ensuring that the pRNG isn't skewed in a manner that is biased
against the player.
------
As a side note, there's always room to speculate a casino might be
motivated to tamper with (gaffe) a machine. But it should be
recognized that the third parties involved (the manufacturer, in
particular) have strong motivation to make such tampering as difficult
as possible, if not impossible.
Couple this with the fact that with a situation that weighs so
strongly in the casino's favor (it takes an idiot to lose money), the
risk of discovery outweighs potential benefit. (Count on their being
some disgruntled insider blabbermouth to spill the beans eventually.)
All of this is to say that there's every reason to consider the
possibility that you might play a gaffed game an incredibly remote
possibility. (This may not apply to you, Valerie, but the suggestion
of this is raised frequently.)
I find the possibility so remote that consideration of such
possibility merely represents a distraction from what's important to
focus on in vp play. With hard bucks at stake, and a subject matter
that takes immense discipline to get one's hands around with precision
(not just strategy, but management of bankroll, play opportunities,
etc), I don't allow myself the luxury of that distraction.
Bottom line, if I had any suspicions that clouded my play confidence
with any repetition, I'd refuse to play in the casino in question (or
altogether, if not limited to one casino).
- Harry
bl,
That's ok. I think today is the day everyone is "picking a nit"
On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 12:51 PM, bornloser1537 <bornloser1537@yahoo.com>wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>, "Valerie
Pollard" <vpollard@...> wrote:
>
> But isn't that supposed to equate with what would be happening if the
cards were being
shuffled?
>
> Valerie
>Yes. Absolutely. I was just picking a nit. My apologies.
..... bl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bill,
You you know approximately how many unique numbers between 0 and 1
the RNG in the latest IGT machines is capable of producing. I know
it depends on the chip. Is it on the order of 10**20 (10 to the
power of 20) or more ?
Thanks.
RJ
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:
Valerie,
I have answered this a number of times, including after that posting.
In a nutshell, when the deal button is pressed the RNG selects 1
card. It then selects 4 more. While you are deciding what to do it
continues to select numbers (between 1 and 52) and discard them. When
you press the Draw button it selects any needed cards 1 at a time.Some of the things you've been told were true 20 years ago but have
not been for over 10.Bill
Thank you so much to everyone who is discussing this subject. I have one more question that has occurred to me:
You say that a casino can choose a payback percentage - separate from the pay schedule, and that they are allowed a variant choice.
This seems easy to understand when you think of a traditional slot machine, but how can this be done when limited by the adherence to the virtual reality of a "real" deck of cards, with only 52 cards available? How can they program for a higher frequency of "good" hits?
(Forgive me if this is a very elementary question!)
Valerie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You may wish to read my message, 76475 in the archives. I discuss the
payback percentage on my MGMD GameKing machine.
The payback percentage is the paytable. They don't program the
frequency of hits.
Dennis
vp-connoisseur
Thank you so much to everyone who is discussing this subject. I have one more question that has occurred to me:
You say that a casino can choose a payback percentage - separate from the pay schedule, and that they are allowed a variant choice.
This seems easy to understand when you think of a traditional slot machine, but how can this be done when limited by the adherence to the virtual reality of a "real" deck of cards, with only 52 cards available? How can they program for a higher frequency of "good" hits?(Forgive me if this is a very elementary question!)
Valerie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Harry wrote,
"I'll offer up a bit more. I imagine that for someone (perhaps
yourself) with your curiosity this will raise questions about exactly
what an RNG is and how it functions. What makes it random? If it
isn't random, what prevents it from being manipulated? (how might it
be manipulated?)".......
Harry,
Thank you for this detailed explanation. I am ingesting it at the moment!
Valerie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]