vpFREE2 Forums

Pros

#1

In a message dated 11/1/2003 11:32:19 AM Pacific Standard Time,
vpFREE@yahoogroups.com writes:

  Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:26:08 -0500
  From: Richard Mckenna <tmac2@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: VP Teams

The $7.00/hr is the twenty five cent rate. The $25.00 or $50.00 rate
is a little more profitable. Dick M.

But you can't find FPDW at these levels. So you have to be like Bob Dancer &
find promotions or casino mistakes or toke employees to look the other way
when using promotions beyond their intended usage. Normally you're playing JB at
these levels. You almost never get to play DB or anything better. Life
actually gets simpler as regards to strategy because there's only one game to play.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

I agree. The opportunities that Bob Dancer took advantage of "back in the
day" no longer exist. Dancer now makes his money selling his image, his
gear and most importantly, his name. Bob is still making money off the
casinos but thanks to him, very few others can do the same. $7 an hour is
about all you will make as a "professional" and that opportunity will not
last forever. Of course if you include the key chains, mugs, sun screens,
totes. t-shirts and jackets, your hourly rate will sky rocket to $7.28 an
hour. Hey, I'm not knocking it. The free meals and cash back make it very
worthwhile if you enjoy playing. It's a great hobby but I certainly
wouldn't call it a profession. I referee high school sports (hobby) and
average $20 an hour but that doesn't make me a "professional' sports
official. On the other hand, a veteran NBA referee earns well over $250,000
for eight months of "work". Now, that's what I'd call a PROFESSION!

···

----- Original Message -----
From: <TedChee@aol.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 12:24 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Pros

In a message dated 11/1/2003 11:32:19 AM Pacific Standard Time,
vpFREE@yahoogroups.com writes:

> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:26:08 -0500
> From: Richard Mckenna <tmac2@localnet.com>
> Subject: Re: VP Teams
>
> The $7.00/hr is the twenty five cent rate. The $25.00 or $50.00 rate
> is a little more profitable. Dick M.
>

But you can't find FPDW at these levels. So you have to be like Bob Dancer

&

find promotions or casino mistakes or toke employees to look the other way
when using promotions beyond their intended usage. Normally you're playing

JB at

these levels. You almost never get to play DB or anything better. Life
actually gets simpler as regards to strategy because there's only one game

to play.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

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#3

Your Right. Dick M.

TedChee@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 11/1/2003 11:32:19 AM Pacific Standard Time,
vpFREE@yahoogroups.com writes:

> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:26:08 -0500
> From: Richard Mckenna <tmac2@localnet.com>
> Subject: Re: VP Teams
>
> The $7.00/hr is the twenty five cent rate. The $25.00 or $50.00
rate
> is a little more profitable. Dick M.
>

But you can't find FPDW at these levels. So you have to be like Bob
Dancer &
find promotions or casino mistakes or toke employees to look the other
way
when using promotions beyond their intended usage. Normally you're
playing JB at
these levels. You almost never get to play DB or anything better. Life

actually gets simpler as regards to strategy because there's only one
game to play.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                   Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

vpFREE Links:
http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

The money is earned by playing progressives at EV rates well above
102+%. Playing a dollar game, putting $3000+ per hour through the
machine at 102%+ is more than $60 per hour.
Some play at 800-1000 hands per hour and I have been on some where the
percentage was as high as 104%.
Have one seat on a bank of 10 and do this 10 times to average one
royal per 10 tries.

···

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 10:04:42 -0500, you wrote:

Your Right. Dick M.

TedChee@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 11/1/2003 11:32:19 AM Pacific Standard Time,
vpFREE@yahoogroups.com writes:

> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:26:08 -0500
> From: Richard Mckenna <tmac2@localnet.com>
> Subject: Re: VP Teams
>
> The $7.00/hr is the twenty five cent rate. The $25.00 or $50.00
rate
> is a little more profitable. Dick M.
>

But you can't find FPDW at these levels. So you have to be like Bob
Dancer &
find promotions or casino mistakes or toke employees to look the other
way
when using promotions beyond their intended usage. Normally you're
playing JB at
these levels. You almost never get to play DB or anything better. Life

actually gets simpler as regards to strategy because there's only one
game to play.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                   Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

vpFREE Links:
http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

#5

. How often are those progressives well above 102% ? Isn't it true that
the vast majority of the time they are BELOW 100%?
  At best, it sounds like part time work to me.

···

From: <elliotts@joimail.com>

The money is earned by playing progressives at EV rates well above
102+%.

#6

Video Poker Vegas wrote:

. How often are those progressives well above 102% ? Isn't it true that
the vast majority of the time they are BELOW 100%?

Right, but when you consider that there are about one hundred full-fledged casinos in town, several hundred bar/casinos with one or more progressives, and several hundred convenience stores and grocery stores with progressives, it's not too hard to find one or more paying over 102% at any given time.

If the progressive happens to be in a casino with a slot club that pays cashback/bounceback adding 1% or so the the play, so much the better!

John

#7

Wait a minute! I've heard about the $6-7/hr. rate on FPDW quarter machines, but what of the multi-line machines? Are they no longer in existence? Surely the hourly rate is much higher on them....

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, TedChee@a... wrote:

In a message dated 11/1/2003 11:32:19 AM Pacific Standard Time,
vpFREE@yahoogroups.com writes:

> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:26:08 -0500
> From: Richard Mckenna <tmac2@l...>
> Subject: Re: VP Teams
>
> The $7.00/hr is the twenty five cent rate. The $25.00 or $50.00 rate
> is a little more profitable. Dick M.
>

But you can't find FPDW at these levels. So you have to be like Bob Dancer &
find promotions or casino mistakes or toke employees to look the other way
when using promotions beyond their intended usage. Normally you're playing JB at
these levels. You almost never get to play DB or anything better. Life
actually gets simpler as regards to strategy because there's only one game to play.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#8

Wait a minute! I've heard about the $6-7/hr. rate on FPDW quarter

machines, but what of the multi-line machines? Are they no longer in
existence? Surely the hourly rate is much higher on them....

I don't know of any multi-line FPDW machines still in existence. In
fact, it's very rare to find any multi-line game at all where the
base game is over 100% - and the few of these that you may find are
generally going to be Double Bonus, which just barely exceeds 100%.

Here's something that a lot of new VP players don't realize (this
included myself when I first started to play). You're generally not
going to make a lot of big dollars from "good" games like FPDW. Most
of the really lucrative opportunities (in expected dollar per hour
terms) that come around involve NEGATIVE games like 9/6 JOB or NSUD,
combined with a "too good to be true" promotion. These opportunities
are often short lived, since the casino will tend to pull the plug on
the promotion when it discovers its "mistake".

EE

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mercutions" <mercutions@y...> wrote:

#9

eecounter wrote:

Wait a minute! I've heard about the $6-7/hr. rate on FPDW quarter

machines, but what of the multi-line machines? Are they no longer in existence? Surely the hourly rate is much higher on them....

I don't know of any multi-line FPDW machines still in existence. In fact, it's very rare to find any multi-line game at all where the base game is over 100% - and the few of these that you may find are generally going to be Double Bonus, which just barely exceeds 100%.

Here's something that a lot of new VP players don't realize (this included myself when I first started to play). You're generally not going to make a lot of big dollars from "good" games like FPDW. Most of the really lucrative opportunities (in expected dollar per hour terms) that come around involve NEGATIVE games like 9/6 JOB or NSUD, combined with a "too good to be true" promotion. These opportunities are often short lived, since the casino will tend to pull the plug on the promotion when it discovers its "mistake".

EE

Right. The days when pros could basically camp out at a dollar or higher positive EV game are gone; those games have been hunted into extinction. The new methods are those like Elliot and EE have described: promotions, progressives, mistakes, and lucrative bounceback mailings.

That's not to say that things haven't gotten a lot harder for pros; their world was definitely rosier when $1 and $5 FPDW and such abounded. But, $60/hr+ opportunities still crop up from time to time.

But...don't quit your day job. Professional gambling is definitely NOT an easy way to make a living, for a variey of reasons that I won't get into here. Suffice it to say: no matter how nasty your boss is, having Lady Luck decide your salary is no picnic.

John

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mercutions" <mercutions@y...> wrote:

#10

Yesterday I played on a 9/6 JOB 25c progressive that was 102.77% when
I left it.
I then played on a promo that equated to 104.75%. It was a $1 play.
Some days, only 25c deuces are available, but when the bounce back or
other perks are included, it comes to well over 102%.

I NEVER play under 100% because that WILL result in a loss (over the
long term)

I would NOT suggest that anyone attempt to earn a living playing VP.
There are fewer and fewer opportunities, but as a supplement or as
something to do other than being a TV watcher, it is great.

···

On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:12:30 -0600, you wrote:

. How often are those progressives well above 102% ? Isn't it true that
the vast majority of the time they are BELOW 100%?
At best, it sounds like part time work to me.

From: <elliotts@joimail.com>

The money is earned by playing progressives at EV rates well above
102+%.

vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

#11

Just how long does it take a "professional" to check 100 casinos a day and
hundreds of progressive machines to find such an opportunity?

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kelly" <jwkelly@flash.net>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 12:34 AM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Pros

Video Poker Vegas wrote:
> . How often are those progressives well above 102% ? Isn't it true

that

> the vast majority of the time they are BELOW 100%?

Right, but when you consider that there are about one hundred
full-fledged casinos in town, several hundred bar/casinos with one or
more progressives, and several hundred convenience stores and grocery
stores with progressives, it's not too hard to find one or more paying
over 102% at any given time.

If the progressive happens to be in a casino with a slot club that pays
cashback/bounceback adding 1% or so the the play, so much the better!

John

vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

#12

I don't doubt that $60+ an hour opportunities crop up from time to time.
That happens to me (referee) during play offs. I still don't see how anyone
can define the people who take advantage of these rare opportunities as
"professionals". I see it as a part time job at best, most likely a hobby
that will make you a few bucks rather than cost you. I do believe there are
professional gamblers, many living in Las Vegas. They are the rare few that
can make a lucrative living from playing selective games at the Sports Books
and playing live poker. I just don't believe there "pros" who are able to
make a living by playing video poker (professionals).

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kelly" <jwkelly@flash.net>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 10:28 AM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Pros

eecounter wrote:
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mercutions" <mercutions@y...> wrote:
>
>>Wait a minute! I've heard about the $6-7/hr. rate on FPDW quarter
>
> machines, but what of the multi-line machines? Are they no longer in
> existence? Surely the hourly rate is much higher on them....
>
>
> I don't know of any multi-line FPDW machines still in existence. In
> fact, it's very rare to find any multi-line game at all where the
> base game is over 100% - and the few of these that you may find are
> generally going to be Double Bonus, which just barely exceeds 100%.
>
> Here's something that a lot of new VP players don't realize (this
> included myself when I first started to play). You're generally not
> going to make a lot of big dollars from "good" games like FPDW. Most
> of the really lucrative opportunities (in expected dollar per hour
> terms) that come around involve NEGATIVE games like 9/6 JOB or NSUD,
> combined with a "too good to be true" promotion. These opportunities
> are often short lived, since the casino will tend to pull the plug on
> the promotion when it discovers its "mistake".
>
> EE
>

Right. The days when pros could basically camp out at a dollar or higher
positive EV game are gone; those games have been hunted into extinction.
The new methods are those like Elliot and EE have described: promotions,
progressives, mistakes, and lucrative bounceback mailings.

That's not to say that things haven't gotten a lot harder for pros;
their world was definitely rosier when $1 and $5 FPDW and such abounded.
But, $60/hr+ opportunities still crop up from time to time.

But...don't quit your day job. Professional gambling is definitely NOT
an easy way to make a living, for a variey of reasons that I won't get
into here. Suffice it to say: no matter how nasty your boss is, having
Lady Luck decide your salary is no picnic.

John

vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

#13

I absolutely agree. I think playing video poker is one of the most lucrative
hobbies around. I just don't see it as a "profession". I love the game and
plan to supplement my retirement by doing exactly what you do.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: <elliotts@joimail.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Pros

Yesterday I played on a 9/6 JOB 25c progressive that was 102.77% when
I left it.
I then played on a promo that equated to 104.75%. It was a $1 play.
Some days, only 25c deuces are available, but when the bounce back or
other perks are included, it comes to well over 102%.

I NEVER play under 100% because that WILL result in a loss (over the
long term)

I would NOT suggest that anyone attempt to earn a living playing VP.
There are fewer and fewer opportunities, but as a supplement or as
something to do other than being a TV watcher, it is great.

On Mon, 3 Nov 2003 23:12:30 -0600, you wrote:

>
>. How often are those progressives well above 102% ? Isn't it true that
>the vast majority of the time they are BELOW 100%?
> At best, it sounds like part time work to me.
>
>
>From: <elliotts@joimail.com>
>> The money is earned by playing progressives at EV rates well above
>> 102+%.
>
>
>
>vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

#14

Video Poker Vegas wrote:

I absolutely agree. I think playing video poker is one of the most
lucrative hobbies around. I just don't see it as a "profession". I
love the game and plan to supplement my retirement by doing exactly
what you do.

There are those who scrape by through much of the year on $10-$15/hr.
$.25 FPDW play and avidly harvest better opportunities as the arise.

You may consider it unscrupulous, but I suspect that the the $.25
income is largely netted tax-free. Considering the occasional
windfalls from unusual opportunities and steady food and beverage
comps, they can eke out a reasonable lifestyle doing something they enjoy.

These are hardly $100K+/yr. pros, but I'd hardly classify their
activity as a hobby.

Out of curiousity, is your persistence on this subject a matter of
simply making sure that people understand that those who consider
themselves "pros" aren't likely to be living high off the hog on the
casinos, or is there a deeper agenda in your posts?

- Harry

#15

<<Just how long does it take a "professional" to check 100 casinos a day and
hundreds of progressive machines to find such an opportunity?>>

Pros have very good "networks" set up. Some pros pay a "scout" a % when they hit a progressive that he has found for them.

I do know of some pros who make $50,000 or more a year - but it IS getting harder. However, the promotions on the higher levels of play can be quite lucrative for the pros with deep pockets, who can stand the volatility of playing with a very small edge. However, some mostly quarter players are doing quite well, with a couple who both play quite regularly bringing in $20,000 or so a year.

Some bandy about the word "pro," I think, when they merely mean "skilled." Many skilled players could be pros but they don't want to be or need to be. I don't want to have to work that hard!!!

···

____________________
Jean $cott - "The Frugal Gambler"
MORE FRUGAL GAMBLING can now
be ordered, autographed, at
http://www.FrugalGambler.biz

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.532 / Virus Database: 326 - Release Date: 10/27/2003

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#16

Jean Scott wrote:

However, the promotions on the higher levels of play can be quite
lucrative for the pros with deep pockets, who can stand the
volatility of playing with a very small edge.

Dancer's recent book provided some harrowing examples of just thin an
edge a pro just might consider ...

- H.

#17

I agree. A couple playing quarters could certainly make $20,000 a year. But
at $7.50 an hour, they would have to work 2,666 hours a year ( 51 hours of
play, 52 weeks a year). VP is a great hobby for skilled players but I don't
think it is a "profession". Skilled visitors take advantage of the same
excellent opportunities which often result in "paid vacations". I don't
doubt that one could make $50,000 playing $1+ machines. But I would venture
that the hundreds of thousands of dollars required for that bankroll was not
acquired by being a "professional" video poker player. I would guess that
the money was made elsewhere and they are simply "gambling: with a realistic
expectation of a positive return. Of course I am talking present times. I
know there were professionals who made money in the past on opportunities
that simply do not exist anymore.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@frugalgambler.biz>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 1:23 AM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Pros

<<Just how long does it take a "professional" to check 100 casinos a day

and

hundreds of progressive machines to find such an opportunity?>>

Pros have very good "networks" set up. Some pros pay a "scout" a % when

they hit a progressive that he has found for them.

I do know of some pros who make $50,000 or more a year - but it IS getting

harder. However, the promotions on the higher levels of play can be quite
lucrative for the pros with deep pockets, who can stand the volatility of
playing with a very small edge. However, some mostly quarter players are
doing quite well, with a couple who both play quite regularly bringing in
$20,000 or so a year.

Some bandy about the word "pro," I think, when they merely mean "skilled."

Many skilled players could be pros but they don't want to be or need to be.
I don't want to have to work that hard!!!

____________________
Jean $cott - "The Frugal Gambler"
MORE FRUGAL GAMBLING can now
be ordered, autographed, at
http://www.FrugalGambler.biz

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.532 / Virus Database: 326 - Release Date: 10/27/2003

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

#18

My point is quite simple. Jobs that pay $7.50 an hour are not professions.
IMHO playing video poker for a living would qualify as a low paying job or a
nice paying hobby.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@verizon.net>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 12:42 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Pros

Video Poker Vegas wrote:
> I absolutely agree. I think playing video poker is one of the most
> lucrative hobbies around. I just don't see it as a "profession". I
> love the game and plan to supplement my retirement by doing exactly
> what you do.

There are those who scrape by through much of the year on $10-$15/hr.
$.25 FPDW play and avidly harvest better opportunities as the arise.

You may consider it unscrupulous, but I suspect that the the $.25
income is largely netted tax-free. Considering the occasional
windfalls from unusual opportunities and steady food and beverage
comps, they can eke out a reasonable lifestyle doing something they enjoy.

These are hardly $100K+/yr. pros, but I'd hardly classify their
activity as a hobby.

Out of curiousity, is your persistence on this subject a matter of
simply making sure that people understand that those who consider
themselves "pros" aren't likely to be living high off the hog on the
casinos, or is there a deeper agenda in your posts?

- Harry

vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

#19

Video Poker Vegas wrote:

My point is quite simple. Jobs that pay $7.50 an hour are not
professions. IMHO playing video poker for a living would qualify as
a low paying job or a nice paying hobby.

Could we settle on "occupational gamblers"? Or does that still place
them in too high an echelon? :slight_smile:

- H.

#20

Harry Porter wrote:

Could we settle on "occupational gamblers"? Or does that still place
them in too high an echelon? :slight_smile:

A follow-up thought: In addition to calling a BIG player a "whale",
this could give rise to referring to the real draught animal of the
casino an "ox".

- H.