vpFREE2 Forums

progressive meter error

Oh pleazzzzzzzzzze stop. Your making me feel bad. Just last month I was
at Terrible's and stuck a $20 bill in an automatic bill changer/ticket
redemption maching. It spit out a five dollar bill, then ran for a few seconds
and spit out 4 more $5 dollar bills. Should I have run up to the
cashier's cage and gave the extra one back? Your casino owner (human beings) "with
feelings" feel best when they have wrangled every last nickel out of your
pocket or some degenerate gamblers who can't control themselves. Thats the
only type of "feelings" they have. Your post gave me a good laugh.

I believe there are some well documented cases with the Gaming Board that
meter errors are the responsibility of the casino, not the gambler, and the
casino has to pay what is on the meter.

In a message dated 7/12/2010 2:31:49 AM Central Daylight Time,
madameguyon@embarqmail.com writes:

I've always struggled with things like this. Why is the house the
enemy? Casino owners are human beings with feelings, just as house
employees are. Why would I be justified in keeping $10 that I got by
taking advantage of a casino making a mistake if I wouldn't be
justified in, say, picking up and keeping a $10 bill that a friend had
just dropped? Why aren't casino owners entitled to the same
consideration? Where is the line between the two?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I believe you're right about whose legal responsibility meter errors
are. I know someone who hit a 4 of a kind for $100,000 when the
normal meter was, at most, a few hundred dollars, and he ended up
winning in court.

But I disagree with you about your characterization of casino owners.
Some of them take advantage of degenerate gamblers, but generally,
people play at casinos with full knowledge that they'll probably lose
and they still consider it worth it in the same way that the ordinary
customer at a restaurant knows the meal will cost money but still
considers it worth it, that some restaurants take advantage of some
addicted eaters or drinkers notwithstanding. Do you believe all
business owners have greed as their sole "feeling" and are similarly
exempt from deserving normal respect or just casino owners? What if
the owner of Terribles was your best friend? What if you knew a
casino employee saw that you had been paid $5 too much?

···

Oh pleazzzzzzzzzze stop. Your making me feel bad. Just last month I was
at Terrible's and stuck a $20 bill in an automatic bill changer/ticket
redemption maching. It spit out a five dollar bill, then ran for a few seconds
and spit out 4 more $5 dollar bills. Should I have run up to the
cashier's cage and gave the extra one back? Your casino owner (human beings) "with
feelings" feel best when they have wrangled every last nickel out of your
pocket or some degenerate gamblers who can't control themselves. Thats the
only type of "feelings" they have. Your post gave me a good laugh.

I believe there are some well documented cases with the Gaming Board that
meter errors are the responsibility of the casino, not the gambler, and the
casino has to pay what is on the meter.

In a message dated 7/12/2010 2:31:49 AM Central Daylight Time,
madameguyon@embarqmail.com writes:

I've always struggled with things like this. Why is the house the
enemy? Casino owners are human beings with feelings, just as house
employees are. Why would I be justified in keeping $10 that I got by
taking advantage of a casino making a mistake if I wouldn't be
justified in, say, picking up and keeping a $10 bill that a friend had
just dropped? Why aren't casino owners entitled to the same
consideration? Where is the line between the two?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Casinos wouldn't be the bad guys if they just took the vig and let the players duke it out for winning rights, like the way most poker rooms and sports bets and race tracks are run. But instead most casinos today insist on backing off or 86'ing winners and grinding down their remaining players for every drop of blood that can be squeezed out of them, even if it involves unethical or even technically illegal actions. That makes the casinos the bad guys and is a blight on the entire industry.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/nov/20/regulators-holding-let-court-rule-watanabe-case/
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Jul-06-Sun-2003/news/21616613.html

To complete your analogy to a restaurant, imagine a restaurant that "loosened" you up first with cheap liquor knockoffs and then got you to agree to hand over your wallet or purse and max out your credit cards before kicking you out the back door. Of course such a restaurant would be shut down in short order and face stiff penalties. Not so with casinos, that would just be business as usual.

Or, another analogy, imagine an all you can eat buffet that advertised all you can eat but then backroomed you if you went for the second round. An establishment can only backroom you if they are charging you with a crime and holding you until the police arrive, after which they can be sued for false arrest if no crime has occured. Not so with casinos and generally metro is on the side of the casino, rather than on the side of the citizen. Just by walking into a casino, the assumption is that you must be perpetrating any number of crimes against the casino. Why else would a law abiding citizen walk into a casino? You are presumed guilty and must assert and defend your rights against the strong arm tactics of the casino.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote:

I believe you're right about whose legal responsibility meter errors
are. I know someone who hit a 4 of a kind for $100,000 when the
normal meter was, at most, a few hundred dollars, and he ended up
winning in court.

But I disagree with you about your characterization of casino owners.
Some of them take advantage of degenerate gamblers, but generally,
people play at casinos with full knowledge that they'll probably lose
and they still consider it worth it in the same way that the ordinary
customer at a restaurant knows the meal will cost money but still
considers it worth it, that some restaurants take advantage of some
addicted eaters or drinkers notwithstanding. Do you believe all
business owners have greed as their sole "feeling" and are similarly
exempt from deserving normal respect or just casino owners? What if
the owner of Terribles was your best friend? What if you knew a
casino employee saw that you had been paid $5 too much?

>Oh pleazzzzzzzzzze stop. Your making me feel bad. Just last month I was
>at Terrible's and stuck a $20 bill in an automatic bill changer/ticket
>redemption maching. It spit out a five dollar bill, then ran for a few seconds
>and spit out 4 more $5 dollar bills. Should I have run up to the
>cashier's cage and gave the extra one back? Your casino owner (human beings) "with
>feelings" feel best when they have wrangled every last nickel out of your
>pocket or some degenerate gamblers who can't control themselves. Thats the
>only type of "feelings" they have. Your post gave me a good laugh.
>
>I believe there are some well documented cases with the Gaming Board that
>meter errors are the responsibility of the casino, not the gambler, and the
>casino has to pay what is on the meter.
>
>In a message dated 7/12/2010 2:31:49 AM Central Daylight Time,
>madameguyon@... writes:
>
>I've always struggled with things like this. Why is the house the
>enemy? Casino owners are human beings with feelings, just as house
>employees are. Why would I be justified in keeping $10 that I got by
>taking advantage of a casino making a mistake if I wouldn't be
>justified in, say, picking up and keeping a $10 bill that a friend had
>just dropped? Why aren't casino owners entitled to the same
>consideration? Where is the line between the two?
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For what it's worth, I have another comment:

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote:

Some of them take advantage of degenerate gamblers, but generally,
people play at casinos with full knowledge that they'll probably lose
and they still consider it worth it

I agree with you, but there is a big difference. Many people play the lottery when there is an overlay and most don't expect to hit the big one, but some person or some team does hit it, and they are national news and treated like champions. Nobody accuses them of stealing tax dollars or draining education budgets or using team strategies. Now look at what happens in a casino. Again, many people play progressives or promotions when there is an overlay (the casinos call this "advantage gambling" and treat it as a crime although it is not), and again, since very few casinos actually operate at a loss, there are more loosers than winners, but in general people are willing to risk it for the chance of being one of the winners. The difference is that casinos treat the extra action caused by overlays as a criminal activity rather than as business promotion and treat the winners as criminals rather than celebrating those who win. When casinos aggressively go after winners and treat them as criminals rather than winners, less people are interested in chasing overlays, casinos are perceived as poor losers, and business suffers, in other words it's a blight on the entire industry.

One area where you see the big difference is in the statewide and nationwide slot jackpots like MegaBucks and Wheel of Fortune. These jackpots are payed by the slot machine manufacturer and not the casino so casinos are always happy when they get hit and treat these customers like they should be treated rather than as criminals.

The biggest problem today is the "Losers Only" strategy employed by most casino floor management. Almost every casino takes an overall profit from their machines, but they should not brag about that. Imagine if every car dealer or real estate agent bragged about how all their customers were losers and about how much money they make just by being the middle man and convincing customers to pay more for a product they could get directly for less? Middle men only survive by convincing customers that their services have value, not by insulting them or pressing charges against those who get a better than average deal or sucking the blood out of the clueless or addicted or disadvantaged.

For what it's worth, I have another comment:

Some of them take advantage of degenerate gamblers, but generally,
people play at casinos with full knowledge that they'll probably lose
and they still consider it worth it

I agree with you, but there is a big difference. Many people play the lottery when there is an overlay and most don't expect to hit the big one, but some person or some team does hit it, and they are national news and treated like champions. Nobody accuses them of stealing tax dollars or draining education budgets or using team strategies. Now look at what happens in a casino. Again, many people play progressives or promotions when there is an overlay (the casinos call this "advantage gambling" and treat it as a crime although it is not),

It takes two to tango. An advantage gambler treats negative machines
as, from the casino's standpoint, "advantage gambling," and, in
effect, "bars" the casino by not playing the machines, just as a
casino manager needs a good reason to have any machine that has the
potential for what is, from the player's perspective, "advantage
gambling." How is there a moral difference?

and again, since very few casinos actually operate at a loss, there are more loosers than winners, but in general people are willing to risk it for the chance of being one of the winners. The difference is that casinos treat the extra action caused by overlays as a criminal activity rather than as business promotion and treat the winners as criminals rather than celebrating those who win.

I disagree with your characterization of casinos as generally treating
advantage gamblers as "criminals." That's an occasional exception.
Usually, they either don't offer positive machines or, when the
positive machines cost them too much money, they take them out or
change them. That's no more treating advantage gamblers as criminals
than the advantage gambler is treating the casino as a criminal by not
playing negative machines.

When casinos aggressively go after winners and treat them as
criminals rather than winners, less people are interested in chasing overlays, casinos are perceived as poor losers, and business suffers, in other words it's a blight on the entire industry.

One area where you see the big difference is in the statewide and nationwide slot jackpots like MegaBucks and Wheel of Fortune. These jackpots are payed by the slot machine manufacturer and not the casino so casinos are always happy when they get hit and treat these customers like they should be treated rather than as criminals.

The biggest problem today is the "Losers Only" strategy employed by most casino floor management.

Who is that a problem for? If I ran a casino, the only way I might
try to improve on it is to welcome advantage gamblers so that, as soon
as they started playing anything, I'd immediately change it so that
they would leave, which might allow me to eliminate some payroll. I
don't see how it's either good business or good morals for a casino to
offer advantage gamblers something they want to play. There are
probably areas in which, to maximize its profits, a casino must offer
something that advantage gamblers would want to play and the casino
can add even further to its profits if it bars the advantage gamblers,
but what is the moral problem with that? If you ran a business, would
you regard yourself as obligated to do business with anyone who wanted
to do business with you, no matter how much any individual might cost
you?

Almost every casino takes an overall profit from their machines, but they should not brag about that. Imagine if every car dealer or real estate agent bragged about how all their customers were losers and about how much money they make just by being the middle man and convincing customers to pay more for a product they could get directly for less?

Casinos don't brag about their good customers being "losers." They do
just the opposite. They call them "good players."

Middle men only survive by convincing customers that their services have value, not by insulting them or pressing charges against those who get a better than average deal or sucking the blood out of the clueless or addicted or disadvantaged.

If sucking the blood out of the "clueless" is wrong, that settles the
question of what the right thing to do with mistaken meters is.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote: