vpFREE2 Forums

progressive machine

      Posted by: "5-card" 5-card@comcast.net
      <mailto:5-c…@…net?Subject=%20Re%3A%20progressive%20machine>
      se2808 <http://profiles.yahoo.com/se2808>

        Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:57 pm (PST)

I find it interesting that all three posts have a different answer. I show
$2,629.75 = 100% using perfect strategy on my web site. Perhaps some are
using "Frugal VP" and penalty free strategy to analyze. I assume that
"Optimum Video Poker" rounds to the nearest dollar.

No, Optimum Video Poker does not "round off." It makes very precise
calculations. 10525 coins is correct if you continue to use perfect play
strategy derived for a 4000-coin royal, but if the strategy is adjusted
for the break-even royal then the 100% point is 10520 coins. For 7/5 JoB
that's a very small difference, but for some games the difference can be
much bigger.

It's worth noting that a strategy derived specifically for that
break-even royal yields the lowest expected cost of a royal. This was
the strategy used by the biggest ever video poker slot team that
operated in Las Vegas in the 90's, which inspired the break-even
progressive calculation in Optimum Video Poker version 3. This is a very
valuable feature for anyone who plays progressives.

Dan

···

--
Dan Paymar, Author of "Video Poker - Optimum Play"
Visit my web site at http://www.OptimumPlay.com
"Chance favors the prepared mind" ~ Louis Pasteur

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dan wrote:

      Posted by: "5-card" 5-card@comcast.net
      <mailto:5-c…@…net?Subject=%20Re%3A%20progressive%20machine>
      se2808 <http://profiles.yahoo.com/se2808>

        Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:57 pm (PST)

I find it interesting that all three posts have a different answer. I show
$2,629.75 = 100% using perfect strategy on my web site. Perhaps some are
using "Frugal VP" and penalty free strategy to analyze. I assume that
"Optimum Video Poker" rounds to the nearest dollar.

No, Optimum Video Poker does not "round off." It makes very precise
calculations. 10525 coins is correct if you continue to use perfect play
strategy derived for a 4000-coin royal, but if the strategy is adjusted
for the break-even royal then the 100% point is 10520 coins. For 7/5 JoB
that's a very small difference, but for some games the difference can be
much bigger.

Your figure of 10,525 didn't sound right, so I checked it out. If a
flat top strategy is played, the break even is 11,739 coins. There
are far too many strategy differences for there to be only a 5 coin
difference in the break even.

It's worth noting that a strategy derived specifically for that
break-even royal yields the lowest expected cost of a royal. This was
the strategy used by the biggest ever video poker slot team that
operated in Las Vegas in the 90's, which inspired the break-even
progressive calculation in Optimum Video Poker version 3. This is a very
valuable feature for anyone who plays progressives.

Dan

That this team employed this strategy comes as news to me. Maybe if
it had a bank locked up, but that was hardly always the case. It
often only had one machine out of many, in which case I hope it didn't
use that strategy.

Hi Tom!

Hay if you think about it, I bet people would love to hear how much of a difference playing the break-even strategy makes to total potential earn. I'd tell them myself, but with you posting here I'm sure people would rather hear it from you. After all, you taught me...

Happy New Year BTW...

~FK

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <007@...> wrote:

That this team employed this strategy comes as news to me. Maybe if
it had a bank locked up, but that was hardly always the case. It
often only had one machine out of many, in which case I hope it didn't
use that strategy.

Frank wrote:

That this team employed this strategy comes as news to me. Maybe if
it had a bank locked up, but that was hardly always the case. It
often only had one machine out of many, in which case I hope it didn't
use that strategy.

Hi Tom!

Hay if you think about it, I bet people would love to hear how much of a difference playing the break-even strategy makes to total potential earn. I'd tell them myself, but with you posting here I'm sure people would rather hear it from you. After all, you taught me...

Happy New Year BTW...

~FK

It can be kind of amazing. Sometimes I cringe when professionals draw
to a progressive royal, no matter how slim the margin is over the
theoretical break point, as if there were no cost to them of the meter
resetting or the greater fluctuation. Especially if a team is
involved, the difference in optimal strategy can be very significant.
I was involved with a team that locked up a bank of tens or better $1
machines. The break even royal was $18,400 and the meter was 5%,
which meant that the optimal strategy was to play as if the royal was
something like $10,000, no matter what the meter, which sometimes went
to over $40,000, was.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <007@...> wrote:

Tom, you've been around a long time. Have you ever heard of a guy called Kenny the Klone. He was a legend in Reno. He is supposed to be from Pennsylvania, has a degree in electrical engineering, and was known as a compulsive gambler. But he is the one who taught Tuna Lund. The last I heard anything about him he was a proofreader for David Sklansky.

Mickey wrote:

Tom, you've been around a long time. Have you ever heard of a guy called Kenny the Klone. He was a legend in Reno. He is supposed to be from Pennsylvania, has a degree in electrical engineering, and was known as a compulsive gambler. But he is the one who taught Tuna Lund. The last I heard anything about him he was a proofreader for David Sklansky.

Yes, I definitely know the Clone/Klone. I didn't know some of what
you wrote about him, but the first I came across him was in Reno. I
played a keno progressive at Harold's Club and hit it in my first 5
cards. The first thing I was asked if I was playing for Ken Jones.

Tom,

Could you explain how the optimal strategy is calculated in your example below? How about an example that is likely to be encountered in 2012. I play progressives without the benefit of a team. How does that alter the strategy?

Thanks,

Chris

···

>Hi Tom!
>
>Hay if you think about it, I bet people would love to hear how much of a difference playing the break-even strategy makes to total potential earn. I'd tell them myself, but with you posting here I'm sure people would rather hear it from you. After all, you taught me...
>
>Happy New Year BTW...
>
>~FK

It can be kind of amazing. Sometimes I cringe when professionals draw
to a progressive royal, no matter how slim the margin is over the
theoretical break point, as if there were no cost to them of the meter
resetting or the greater fluctuation. Especially if a team is
involved, the difference in optimal strategy can be very significant.
I was involved with a team that locked up a bank of tens or better $1
machines. The break even royal was $18,400 and the meter was 5%,
which meant that the optimal strategy was to play as if the royal was
something like $10,000, no matter what the meter, which sometimes went
to over $40,000, was.

What I wrote was somewhat simplistic. With a team involved, the
players get paid for their time, they make mistakes, etc. I can't
remember how to prove it theoretically, but the way to maximize the
value of a progressive that one has all to oneself is to play as if
the meter is at the point at which the play, including meter
progression (and all other complicating factors such as I just
mentioned) breaks even. With a 5% meter, we should have been playing
as if the meter were fixed at the point at which the machine paid back
95%, no matter how much over 100% it actually was. To be one player
among many minimizes this feature of "pretending" the meter is lower
than it is. It's essentially a matter of estimating how much the
meter resetting costs you. If a casino supervisor came up to you and
offered to pay you to reset the meter, how much would you want? If
you hit the jackpot, you may gain the entire jackpot in cash, but
you've lost the meter to play for, which reduces the value of hitting
the jackpot. Many factors are relevant, such as the value of your
time, how much longer you were intending to play, what competition
might show up, what other progressives there are, etc., so that
there's no such thing as "perfect" progressive play, which, to me, has
a discouraging effect in learning strategy. The fact that you're
playing and would leave if anyone hit it means that this cost exists,
but as the number of competitors increases, this cost decreases. It's
usually not a very important factor. Not making basic mistakes such
as keeping a high card over a pair is far more important than
adjusting for it. Without doing so in a very calculating way, I also
"fudge" and wait even higher before I draw to the royal because it
usually involves more fluctuation. Right at the breaking number,
where the expected value is the same, it usually takes a bigger
bankroll to draw to the royal, but I believe this is similar to the
"cost of hitting a jackpot" factor in that letting it be a distraction
so that it increases the probability of making basic mistakes or
slowing down play can make it more trouble than it's worth.

Chris wrote:

···

Tom,

Could you explain how the optimal strategy is calculated in your example below? How about an example that is likely to be encountered in 2012. I play progressives without the benefit of a team. How does that alter the strategy?

Thanks,

Chris

>Hi Tom!
>
>Hay if you think about it, I bet people would love to hear how much of a difference playing the break-even strategy makes to total potential earn. I'd tell them myself, but with you posting here I'm sure people would rather hear it from you. After all, you taught me...
>
>Happy New Year BTW...
>
>~FK

It can be kind of amazing. Sometimes I cringe when professionals draw
to a progressive royal, no matter how slim the margin is over the
theoretical break point, as if there were no cost to them of the meter
resetting or the greater fluctuation. Especially if a team is
involved, the difference in optimal strategy can be very significant.
I was involved with a team that locked up a bank of tens or better $1
machines. The break even royal was $18,400 and the meter was 5%,
which meant that the optimal strategy was to play as if the royal was
something like $10,000, no matter what the meter, which sometimes went
to over $40,000, was.