vpFREE2 Forums

Precision Play Rules

#1

Pursuant to questions about the actual expected return when using my
Precision Play rules, I asked Jazbo to reconfirm the evaluation that
he did many years ago, showing that the rules would indeed return
within 0.01% of perfect play.

I can't find the result I did so long ago. I believe the analysis I
did was based on a linear
version of your strategy (a traditional list of rules). In trying
to recreate your strategy based
on your Precision Play rules on Page 44 of VPOP, 1st edition, I ...
don't know if this is the strategy that I evaluated several years
ago, but
it is quite good for an almost penalty-free strategy. My analyzer gives an EV
of 99.5347375 compared to an optimal EV of 99.54390437. The difference
is indeed below 0.01%: 0.0091669%.

I requested and received permission from jazbo to post this. Of
course this evaluation is for the current Precision Play rules in the
204-page Video Poker - Optimum Play, not for the earlier rules in the
Precision Play booklets. Those earlier rules, developed before Video
Poker Tutor or other analysis tools were available, were not quite
this good, but they were the best strategies available at the time,
and another analyst has confirmed that even those early rules would
yield within 0.0136% of perfect play.

As Jazbo said, his earlier analysis was for the hand rank table in
the back of the old Precision Play booklet, and it also was reported
to yield within 0.01% of perfect play.

It is my opinion that, ideally, each player should use a strategy
that is optimized according to his/her abilities and goals. The
Precision Play rules are designed to be an excellent compromise,
suitable for players in the beginner to skilled recreational player
range, with a goal of having fun while playing at an advantage (or
minimal disadvantage where advantage play is unavailable) while
earning comps and other benefits. This, of course, includes the vast
majority of video poker players. Most of these players are likely to
lose more than the potential gain of a "more nearly perfect" strategy
because of reduced speed and unintentional deviations due to the
complexity of such a strategy.

My own goal is to continue to offer analyses, strategies, and other
information useful to the majority of video poker players at very
reasonable cost. Suggestions for improvements are always welcome.

Dan

···

At 8:37 PM -0500 3/12/06, Jazbo wrote:

--
Dan Paymar
Author of best selling book, "Video Poker - Optimum Play"
Editor/Publisher of VP newsletter "Video Poker Times"
Developer of VP analysis/trainer software "Optimum Video Poker"
Visit my web site at www.OptimumPlay.com

"Chance favors the prepared mind." -- Louis Pasteur

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Dan wrote:

It is my opinion that, ideally, each player should use a strategy
that is optimized according to his/her abilities and goals. The
Precision Play rules are designed to be an excellent compromise,
suitable for players in the beginner to skilled recreational player
range, with a goal of having fun while playing at an advantage (or
minimal disadvantage where advantage play is unavailable) while
earning comps and other benefits. This, of course, includes the vast
majority of video poker players. Most of these players are likely to
lose more than the potential gain of a "more nearly perfect" strategy
because of reduced speed and unintentional deviations due to the
complexity of such a strategy.

I was just studying when to hold 2 to a straight flush in NSUD today.
Holding T9s, 98s, 87s, and 76s when they have no penalties over a
redraw is fine, but, with 1 straight penalty, it's not so clear. When
it dawned on me that about 2¢ per hour is at stake on a $1 machine,
that 1 extra hand per hour will more than make up for not knowing this
strategy, knowing which might require the memorization of more than a
hundred different plays, and that I'll play every potental redraw
slower just in an attempt to identify the rare correct straight flush
draw, I just said the hell with it. There can be quite a negative
correlation between "perfect" and "optimal."

#3

Tom wrote: I was just studying when to hold 2 to a straight flush in
NSUD today.
Holding T9s, 98s, 87s, and 76s when they have no penalties over a
redraw is fine, but, with 1 straight penalty, it's not so clear. When
it dawned on me that about 2¢ per hour is at stake on a $1 machine,
that 1 extra hand per hour will more than make up for not knowing this
strategy, knowing which might require the memorization of more than a
hundred different plays, and that I'll play every potental redraw
slower just in an attempt to identify the rare correct straight flush
draw, I just said the hell with it. There can be quite a negative
correlation between "perfect" and "optimal."

Tom is correct. There are far too many exceptions at NSU and most other
Deuces Wild games to play them perfectly. In addition to the rule he
mentioned, there are tough rules for when to hold deuce 45, and when to
throw a suited KQ, KJ, or KT away. All told, there are HUNDREDS of
exceptions to the best strategy out there. And the number of exceptions
in FPDW is even greater.

That said, the NSU rule of holding SF2 0i when there is neither flush
nor straight penalty is a very useful, ADVANCED strategy rule. I would
expect Tom to be able to master it easily, as he is a skilled and
experienced player, but it'd be inappropriately tough for a beginner.
It's on the Dancer/Daily Level 4 strategy. It is nowhere to be found in
"Optimum Play" rules, Frugal strategies, nor is it found on the
Dancer/Daily Level 3 (or lower) strategies. A major advantage of the
Dancer/Daily strategies is that there are four levels of strategies and
each person can choose for himself/herself which is appropriate. Every
other author picks one particular target audience, and you may or may
not be in that group. And even if you are in the target group now, you
very well might get better as you become more experienced and be able to
handle a more complicated strategy.

The rule I use personally for these situations is that in addition to
holding the SF2 0i when there are no penalties at all, I hold them when
there is no flush penalty, exactly one straight penalty at the limit,
and the other three cards are differently suited. This captures a large
percentage of the exceptions and is not difficult to memorize, at least
for me. If you wish to have the complete list of exceptions for this
game, see the appendixes to the Dancer/Daily Winner's Guide.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

It's rare, and very close when you would hold SF2, open, with an
outside straight penalty. For example, 98s Q34 to redraw would cost
one hundredth of a cent at dollars. You're probably losing more money
wringing your hands over the proper play if you have apositive situation.

I personally am really big on utility and practicality. I don't find
the really complex plays in NSUD that difficult. The 15-11 game is a
lot more complex, but is also worth .23 more. OK .2288 more. Happy now?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <thomasrrobertson@...> wrote:

I was just studying when to hold 2 to a straight flush in NSUD today.
Holding T9s, 98s, 87s, and 76s when they have no penalties over a
redraw is fine, but, with 1 straight penalty, it's not so clear. When
it dawned on me that about 2¢ per hour is at stake on a $1 machine,
that 1 extra hand per hour will more than make up for not knowing this
strategy, knowing which might require the memorization of more than a
hundred different plays, and that I'll play every potental redraw
slower just in an attempt to identify the rare correct straight flush
draw, I just said the hell with it. There can be quite a negative
correlation between "perfect" and "optimal."

_______________________________________________________________________

coming soon: www.paladingaming.net

#5

<<I was just studying when to hold 2 to a straight flush in NSUD today.
Holding T9s, 98s, 87s, and 76s when they have no penalties over a
redraw is fine, but, with 1 straight penalty, it's not so clear. When
it dawned on me that about 2� per hour is at stake on a $1 machine,
that 1 extra hand per hour will more than make up for not knowing this
strategy, knowing which might require the memorization of more than a
hundred different plays, and that I'll play every potental redraw
slower just in an attempt to identify the rare correct straight flush
draw, I just said the hell with it. There can be quite a negative
correlation between "perfect" and "optimal.">>

Excellent point and a very good example. I have always felt that most people weren't losing ANY money by using a good penalty-free strategy instead of trying to use a "perfect" one. They were actually winning more because they could play faster and accrue more cashback, comps, BB, drawing tickets, and/or promotional value. And Skip has pointed out many times that time spent learning complex strategies could often be better used scouting for better plays.

On the other hand, I have never criticized anyone if they want to spend time learning and using a more complex schedule. For some players this is a personal challenge they love, and not a chore.

I feel that there is sometimes too much "judgment" in these forums, whether we are talking about wearing shorts to a show or what strategy to use. I try - maybe not always succeeding - but trying strongly to present ideas that might be helpful to many people but not putting down those who might think my ideas just aren't for them.

Someone posted a comment about this forum being for advantage players. I feel that is a mistaken viewpoint. I feel that there is a wide range of players here, with a very broad range of gambling goals. Maybe you can say that everyone is trying to become more educated about video poker - but how they use the information they receive depends on their personal circumstances. Obviously, a VP player who comes to Vegas once a year for 3 days for a vacation at a luxurious resort will have different goals that the local who is plugging away at VP almost every day.

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
   for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
   of your questions!

#6

I feel that there is a wide range of players here, with a very broad
range of gambling goals. Maybe you can say that everyone is trying to
become more educated about video poker - but how they use the
information they receive depends on their personal circumstances.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@...> wrote:

Nice post! I live in Vegas and gamble everyday! I tried to get into
the mode of chasing bounceback at different casinos but just couldn't
get into it. (Maybe some day I will?). For now, we are happy giving
our play to GVR where it's close to home and we enjoy playing. We KNOW
that it's not the best play in town but we're willing to lose money to
enjoy our experience. At the beginning of March we've moved about
$100,000 coin-in per month to South Coast. So we're branching out!
That wouldn't have happened except that Stations finds it necessary to
downgrade their buffet, cut staffing and they have about the worse
computer system around that continues to "lock up" resulting in points
useage not being available. All these casinos are making record
profits and at least Stations should spend some of that profit to
upgrade it's IS equipment. I've been told that there's just not enough
memmory for all the things they try and do. Between the regular Jumbo
Jackpots and then they started with the daily Jumbo Jackpot during
"special weekends" it just seems to "crash" more and more.

End of rant and thanks again Jean for seeing that there are other
reasons for VPFree.

#7

Stan commented: I live in Vegas and gamble everyday !
   
  Cool ! BUT ...where in the world do you go on vacation ? Just kidding . I often try to imagine what it'd be like to actually live in Vegas. It is my FAVORITE vacation spot . Just don't get to come as often as I'd like to. When I do though......I love it and get all depressed when I have to leave ! LOL I love arriving at the airport but just hate leaving it !
   
  I bore pretty easily though...... so even if I lived there, I doubt I'd gamble everyday. However, I think it's a great city even aside from the gambling . It's so alive and inviting with many other things going on besides gaming. Yet, I have always been a little curious as to how well the locals deal with the gambling temptations facing them daily ? It only stands to reason that most can't afford to gamble everyday or really even very often. So living there must be a challenge for many .

···

staninnv <arnot@cox.net> wrote:
  --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@...> wrote:
I feel that there is a wide range of players here, with a very broad
range of gambling goals. Maybe you can say that everyone is trying to
become more educated about video poker - but how they use the
information they receive depends on their personal circumstances.

Nice post! I live in Vegas and gamble everyday! I tried to get into
the mode of chasing bounceback at different casinos but just couldn't
get into it. (Maybe some day I will?). For now, we are happy giving
our play to GVR where it's close to home and we enjoy playing. We KNOW
that it's not the best play in town but we're willing to lose money to
enjoy our experience. At the beginning of March we've moved about
$100,000 coin-in per month to South Coast. So we're branching out!
That wouldn't have happened except that Stations finds it necessary to
downgrade their buffet, cut staffing and they have about the worse
computer system around that continues to "lock up" resulting in points
useage not being available. All these casinos are making record
profits and at least Stations should spend some of that profit to
upgrade it's IS equipment. I've been told that there's just not enough
memmory for all the things they try and do. Between the regular Jumbo
Jackpots and then they started with the daily Jumbo Jackpot during
"special weekends" it just seems to "crash" more and more.

End of rant and thanks again Jean for seeing that there are other
reasons for VPFree.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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#8

<<Yet, I have always been a little curious as to how well the locals deal with the gambling temptations facing them daily ? It only stands to reason that most can't afford to gamble everyday or really even very often. So living there must be a challenge for many. >>

Some locals don't deal with the issue well at all. Many move away to solve their problem gambling and I have met others who say they just stopped gambling at all.

Those that do deal with the issue well use discipline. Some play negative games but limit their play time to a budgeted gambling session bankroll, which usually means NOT playing every day - perhaps only one or two days a week or even less. Many realize they can't play slots or negative VP like they did when they vacationed here - and know they must choose positive plays if they want to play more.

Advantage players who are wise stick with the very best plays if they want to gamble often and they also stick with a session budgeted bankroll if their discretionary income/assets are small.

Those advantage players that have an adequate bankroll can play every day if they wish. But most of us have other interests besides gambling and do not play every day.

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
   for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
   of your questions!

#9

Those advantage players that have an adequate bankroll can play every
day if they wish. But most of us have other interests besides
gambling and do not play every day.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@...> wrote:

Speak for yourself honey! If the lawn don't need mowing or the
bushes/trees trimmed, I'm gambling! I do have discipline though. We
are fortunate to be able to afford gambling, even negative gambling.
When the losses are too overwhelming though like NO quads in $500 on
quarter triple play, I'm outta there. There's always another day.
Playing only Video Poker, I can play everyday and still pay the
mortgage. I've NEVER had to go into my savings for my gambling
problem. I've also been told that gambling is not a problem unless you
run out of money.

I do miss the excitement of planning a trip to Vegas. Instead we go
off to Cancun or Maui or just go visit relatives in Wisconsin (when
it's warm) or Northern California.

#10

Can I come live with you ? I don't eat much and don't use too much water.
   
  Sounds like you are having FUN ! If you are fortunate enough to be able to afford it and you enjoy, why not ? Afterall, money is made to spend .
   
  Take care.
   
  Nita

···

staninnv <arnot@cox.net> wrote:
  --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@...> wrote:
Those advantage players that have an adequate bankroll can play every
day if they wish. But most of us have other interests besides
gambling and do not play every day.

Speak for yourself honey! If the lawn don't need mowing or the
bushes/trees trimmed, I'm gambling! I do have discipline though. We
are fortunate to be able to afford gambling, even negative gambling.
When the losses are too overwhelming though like NO quads in $500 on
quarter triple play, I'm outta there. There's always another day.
Playing only Video Poker, I can play everyday and still pay the
mortgage. I've NEVER had to go into my savings for my gambling
problem. I've also been told that gambling is not a problem unless you
run out of money.

I do miss the excitement of planning a trip to Vegas. Instead we go
off to Cancun or Maui or just go visit relatives in Wisconsin (when
it's warm) or Northern California.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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#11

UNTIL -- until you run out of money.

http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/20questions.html

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "staninnv" <arnot@...> wrote:

I've also been told that gambling is not a problem unless you
run out of money.

#12

<<Speak for yourself honey! If the lawn don't need mowing or the
bushes/trees trimmed, I'm gambling! I do have discipline though. We
are fortunate to be able to afford gambling, even negative gambling.>>

You prove my point - that's why I use the term "most players" a lot.
Gambling ALWAYS takes some discipline. But how you play depends a lot on
your bankroll. The smaller your bankroll, the more discipline you will need
to practice - by choosing the best plays, having stop-loss limits, etc.

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
   for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
   of your questions!

#13

I feel that there is sometimes too much "judgment" in these

forums, whether

we are talking about wearing shorts to a show or what strategy to

use. I

try - maybe not always succeeding - but trying strongly to present

ideas

that might be helpful to many people but not putting down those

who might

think my ideas just aren't for them.

Someone posted a comment about this forum being for advantage

players. I

feel that is a mistaken viewpoint. I feel that there is a wide

range of

players here, with a very broad range of gambling goals. Maybe

you can say

that everyone is trying to become more educated about video poker -

but how

they use the information they receive depends on their personal
circumstances. Obviously, a VP player who comes to Vegas once a

year for 3

days for a vacation at a luxurious resort will have different

goals that the

local who is plugging away at VP almost every day.

I could not agree with you more. I think many people who do not
play or do not have available positive vp feel reluctant to ask
questions or post ideas on here if it involves "fessing" up to
playing less than positive games. Why, because people have been
chastised for not playing positive game on vpFREE.

It was once suggested to me that I save up and go to Vegas so that I
can make my $8 per hour for about 20 hours (typical weekend play?).
However no comments were made how much a flight to Vegas would cost,
let alone if one were to drive it due to an inabilitly to fly.

Yes we all would like to have positive play, but some of us just
write off the cost to entertainment and enjoy the free rooms and
meals.

DWK

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@...> wrote:

#14

DWK
  
I'm in total agreement with you that many in this group are reluctant to post messages or ask questions for fear of being chastised /embarrassed.
As Jean commented, there is sometimes too much" judgment" here. I often get private emails which I feel are due to people being afraid to post their reply to all here. Sometimes a post which may seem very trivial or even stupid to some is very informative and beneficial to others. As Jean stated..... we are a diverse group of players with each having their own goals. And I appreciate and respect diversity ..... very much so !
  
  Take care all,
  
  Nita
  
  > I feel that there is sometimes too much "judgment" in these
  forums, whether
  > we are talking about wearing shorts to a show or what strategy to
  use. I
  > try - maybe not always succeeding - but trying strongly to present
  ideas
  > that might be helpful to many people but not putting down those
  who might
  > think my ideas just aren't for them.
  >
  > Someone posted a comment about this forum being for advantage
  players. I
  > feel that is a mistaken viewpoint. I feel that there is a wide
  range of
  > players here, with a very broad range of gambling goals. Maybe
  you can say
  > that everyone is trying to become more educated about video poker -
   but how
  > they use the information they receive depends on their personal
  > circumstances. Obviously, a VP player who comes to Vegas once a
  year for 3
  > days for a vacation at a luxurious resort will have different
  goals that the
  > local who is plugging away at VP almost every day.
  
  I could not agree with you more. I think many people who do not
  play or do not have available positive vp feel reluctant to ask
  questions or post ideas on here if it involves "fessing" up to
  playing less than positive games. Why, because people have been
  chastised for not playing positive game on vpFREE.
  
  It was once suggested to me that I save up and go to Vegas so that I
  can make my $8 per hour for about 20 hours (typical weekend play?).
  However no comments were made how much a flight to Vegas would cost,
  let alone if one were to drive it due to an inabilitly to fly.
  
  Yes we all would like to have positive play, but some of us just
  write off the cost to entertainment and enjoy the free rooms and
  meals.
  
  DWK
  
    vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
  
          SPONSORED LINKS
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···

deuceswild1000 <deuceswild1000@yahoo.com> wrote: --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@...> wrote:
        
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