vpFREE2 Forums

Possible Strategy Change

#1

A few weeks ago I light heartedly posted a couple of "wondering
questions". One of my purposes was to possibly divert a little of
the current heat/stress. One of the questions I wondered about was
if one changes perfect play strategy if you tip for a hand paid
royal. I would like to ask the question again.

    First of all, I feel comfortable playing JoB using advance
strategy according to VPSM chart. Actually, I do not think learning
this advance strategy is much more difficult than its basic
strategy. Yes, there are more lines and decisions, but learning to
keep a king on throw away a suited ten if you have both a flush
penalty and a straight penalty is no different than a rule like 4 to
a flush beats 2 pair. It is not much more complex and just simply
something I needed to learned and remember. I do not need to make
any calculations, just recognize both hands!

    Back to my question. If you are going to pay a tip of one per
cent or $40 on a 4000 hand pay ($1 Job) this makes the royal worth
$3960. If you use this value for the royal and run the advance
strategy then two changes appear in the new ranking of hands. The
new strategy places the suited JT under the unsuited KQJ. This does
not involve a decision since you cannot have such a dilemma. If all
four cards are in the hand you have a KQJT and that is an open ended
outside straight with 3 high cards and thus has a much higher rank
than the other two combinations.

    It appears that the only hand that does change with a $3960 royal
is the dropping a suited ten when you have a suited King and Ten and
1 flush penalty. The new strategy places suited the K-10 below a
redraw and thus you hold the King only when you have a flush penalty.

    I am seriously asking this question. Do all of you make this
strategy change? This is under the assumption that you will tip $40
if you get a royal at the dollar level. I know that I will tip this
much. I just never looked at how VPSM would change with a royal
worth only $3,960 until all the discussion about different levels of
strategy perfection with JoB.

    Some were speaking of perfect play and others were speaking of
simplicity. Again, I now longer find perfect strategy difficult to
learn and play. I can just as easily miss a second pair as one of
the other hands I have learned that differs from basic play. Do you
all incorporate this suited K-10 with a flush penalty change if you
tip?

Bob

#2

Futrend wrote: . . . is no different than a rule like 4 to a flush
beats 2 pair.

    That's a rule that will not be relevant in five cards.

Futrend also wrote: It appears that the only hand that does change with
a $3960 royal
is the dropping a suited ten when you have a suited King and Ten and
1 flush penalty.

    That rule isn't correct either. From 9/6/790 JoB, you
should hold 'KT' from 'KTx', unless there's a 9 penalty. VPSM is the
only product that tries to deal with penalty cards --- and it misses on
this one. If you use any of the strategy-creation programs, you need to
check out the strategies before going to the casino. Each
strategy-creation program makes some simplifications and you never know
whether a particular simplification will affect the strategy you're
interested in unless you check it out.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

#3

"futrend" <futrend@...> wrote:

If you are going to pay a tip of one per cent or $40 on a 4000
hand pay ($1 Job) this makes the royal worth $3960.

If you hit the Royal, it's true that only $3960 makes its way to your
own pocket. But it's not like that $40 disappears. As a result of that
Royal, that $40 is moved out of the casino's assets and into the pocket
of the employee you tip.

If you're indifferent to whether the casino or the employee has that
$40, then it's correct to re-figure strategy for a Royal value of
$3960. However, if you feel it's a positive thing that this employee
gets a little bonus, then that ought to enter into your calculations
also.

Stuart (RandomStu)
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/fungames.htm
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

#4

My original thought came up when the discussion was about perfect
play vs simplified play was most heated. I like the challenge to
both learn and play perfect stategy. I also believe my opportunities
for a play that is over 100% in JoB are limited. This is
significant. Speed of play usually does not seem to be to my
advantage over the cost of accuracy. What is the rush to play a
slightly negative game?
  I am sure that I do not play JoB completely error free, but it
is not because perfect strategy is too complicated after practice.
Your point about the employee getting the money instead of casino
is valid. However, I am trying to survive and I will share (tip)
with good fortune. In the meantime, I want to do the best that
I can between royals. The employee may miss an occasional royal
tip, but if I am still around they will share in a future royal.
  It seem that Bob Dancer says my change in question is not valid
with a more accurate strategy guide than the VPSM Advance Strategy
for JoB. He said that I must also have a 9 (a straight penalty)
plus the flush penalty. I have his Winner's Guide and I had
already incorporated that rule in my play when the royal is $800.
I had assumed it was also in VPSM, but a closer look at the Advance
Strategy list shows that rule is not in the list. He said this
rule will not change when the value of the royal is reduced by
one (1) per cent.

Bob

do not play error free >

"futrend" <futrend@> wrote:

If you are going to pay a tip of one per cent or $40 on a 4000
hand pay ($1 Job) this makes the royal worth $3960.

  If you hit the Royal, it's true that only $3960 makes its way to
your own pocket. But it's not like that $40 disappears. As a result
of that Royal, that $40 is moved out of the casino's assets and into
the pocket of the employee you tip.
  If you're indifferent to whether the casino or the employee has
that $40, then it's correct to re-figure strategy for a Royal value
of $3960. However, if you feel it's a positive thing that this
employee gets a little bonus, then that ought to enter into your
calculations also.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Stuart" <sresnick2@...> wrote:

Stuart (RandomStu)
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/fungames.htm
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

#5

Thanks for responding.
  I have your "A Winner's Guide to Jacks or Better". In that
guide I learned the suited K-10 with both a 9 and a Flush penalty
rule. I have been using it in my JoB play ever since. I just
assumed this rule was also in VPSM. I originally learned penalty
plays using VPSM and simply incorportated your rule in my play
once I read and studied your guide. Is not that the only penalty
play difference?
  I interpret your answer to say that I play the same. I keep
a suited K-10 unless I have a 9 and a Flush penalty even if a
royal is worth $790. By the way, when I produced the new VPSM
strategy I used $792, not $790 since 1 percent of $800 (a $20 tip)
is $8.
  Your answer is saying nothing changes when a royal is valued at
$792. I know that I was "nic picking" a little when addresing tips,
but I was curious about how the payment relates to perfect play
strategy.

Bob

Futrend wrote: . . . is no different than a rule like 4 to a flush
beats 2 pair.

    That's a rule that will not be relevant in five cards.

Futrend also wrote: It appears that the only hand that does change

with

a $3960 royal
is the dropping a suited ten when you have a suited King and Ten

and

1 flush penalty.

    That rule isn't correct either. From 9/6/790 JoB, you
should hold 'KT' from 'KTx', unless there's a 9 penalty. VPSM is the
only product that tries to deal with penalty cards --- and it

misses on

this one. If you use any of the strategy-creation programs, you

need to

check out the strategies before going to the casino. Each
strategy-creation program makes some simplifications and you never

know

whether a particular simplification will affect the strategy you're
interested in unless you check it out.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video

poker

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@...> wrote:

computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

#6

Futrend continued his discussion about possible strategy changes.

You are correct that it should have been 792 rather than 790, although
it should be 792 coins, not $792.

There are no changes to perfect 9/6 Jacks strategy in the scenario you
are describing. A 2% tip rate would bring out a few --- and some people
tip that much. Also in other games, a tip rate on hand pays can change a
few plays. In NSU, for example, with Ah Th 9c 7d 5s, the proper play at
a 4,000 royal is 'AT' and the proper play at a 3,690 royal is to draw
five new cards.

Your search for hands that should be changed to take account of tips has
merit. You will often have to find them by trial and error because
current strategy-creation programs aren't sufficiently fine-tuned to
catch them all. The more you search, the more you'll end up studying the
game, and the better your results will be. The more you know about the
nuts and bolts of video poker, the more you can survive the tightening
of the games --- which has been going on for years and will undoubtedly
continue.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

#7

"futrend" <futrend@> wrote:
> If you are going to pay a tip of one per cent or $40 on a 4000
> hand pay ($1 Job) this makes the royal worth $3960.

If you hit the Royal, it's true that only $3960 makes its way to

your

own pocket. But it's not like that $40 disappears. As a result of

that

Royal, that $40 is moved out of the casino's assets and into the

pocket

of the employee you tip.

If you're indifferent to whether the casino or the employee has

that

$40, then it's correct to re-figure strategy for a Royal value of
$3960. However, if you feel it's a positive thing that this

employee

gets a little bonus, then that ought to enter into your

calculations

also.

I'd take this one step further. I look at these tips as being part of
the whole picture. We all have situations where attendents are
required. Not all of those are for RFs. Hopper fills, ticket jams,
printer errors, key and display problems, etc. Although the RF gives
us the chance to provide a tip, are you tipping for the RF itself? If
a RF wasn't a handpay would you tip some other way? And, should you
adjust for this on the RF holds alone. Maybe, maybe not ... Should
you account for gas costs? How about medical costs due to eating at
less healthy venues, getting less exercise?

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Stuart" <sresnick2@...> wrote:

#8

In this case I was only considering a hand pay, and most likely,
a W2G. I do tip for other casino services, but I was just thinking
the royal may be worth less to me since I will almost automatically
tip.

This being said, it probably would not be a consideration at $.25.
I was thinking of a royal at $1 and a royal or straight flush at $5.
With tipping I know those hands are going to be worth less to me.
I never has a $5 straight flush ($1250), but would probably tip $10
with a hand pay and a W2G. My original thought was not more complex
than this. I just wondered if it might be a factor in real life and
with perfect play strategy.

Bob

>
> "futrend" <futrend@> wrote:
> > If you are going to pay a tip of one per cent or $40 on a 4000
> > hand pay ($1 Job) this makes the royal worth $3960.
>
> If you hit the Royal, it's true that only $3960 makes its way to
your
> own pocket. But it's not like that $40 disappears. As a result of
that
> Royal, that $40 is moved out of the casino's assets and into the
pocket
> of the employee you tip.
>
> If you're indifferent to whether the casino or the employee has
that
> $40, then it's correct to re-figure strategy for a Royal value of
> $3960. However, if you feel it's a positive thing that this
employee
> gets a little bonus, then that ought to enter into your
calculations
> also.

I'd take this one step further. I look at these tips as being part

of

the whole picture. We all have situations where attendents are
required. Not all of those are for RFs. Hopper fills, ticket jams,
printer errors, key and display problems, etc. Although the RF

gives

us the chance to provide a tip, are you tipping for the RF itself?

If

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mroejacks" <rgmustain@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Stuart" <sresnick2@> wrote:
a RF wasn't a handpay would you tip some other way? And, should you
adjust for this on the RF holds alone. Maybe, maybe not ... Should
you account for gas costs? How about medical costs due to eating at
less healthy venues, getting less exercise?

Dick