vpFREE2 Forums

Positive Expectation

Exactly.

Dancer churns $20 million (I think he's used that number) and a coupla tenths of a percent is serious money. For $500,000 a year I can afford to play JOB with a little cashback and get great vacations for a small fraction of their real value to me. Anything better, from Super Double Bonus to NSUD to Double Bonus is gravy. And I enjoy the action.

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Elliott L. Shapiro wrote:
> All of this discussion has been interesting and I assume that it
> is a fun machine to play, but it is NOT a positive play

In these discussions, I sometimes get the idea that people make a
huge distinction between, say, an opportunity that returns 99.9% and
one that returns 100.1%. I can see that for someone who truly looks
at VP as profession, the distinction is important: once the
expectation goes above 100%, then & only then is there the
possibility of making a living from the game if sufficient cash is
put through.

But for those of us who play recreationally, the difference between
99.9% EV and 100.1% may be no more significant than, say, the
difference between 99.5% and 99.7%. It's possible to attach
importance to the 100% figure in cases where it defies logic. For
many of us, 100% EV is no more magic than Dow 10,000.

For myself: several times a year, I like to take little vacations, a
weekend or a long weekend, to various gambling spots. I usually go
with at least one friend. Say I find a casino that'll provide a nice
free room & food for $10K coin-in (between the two of us), and the
best return available is 99.9%. For my $5000/day, I can expect an
average loss of <$5.

Considering the value I place on the weekend vacation, & considering
the long-term loss in relation to my total budget... it's simply a
trivial matter whether my expectation swings $10 or $20 a day. Yeah,
sure, it's more fun to tell people "I won $10" than "I lost $10" when
I get back from Vegas, but I know it really doesn't matter.

So if I get a free deal from Barbary Coast, and it'll require putting
a few thousand dollars through a NSUD machine with .25% cashback, and
I know someone who will enjoy making the trip with me... I'm not for
a second going to consider turning it down over because the play is
negative EV.

Yes, I'm reading Bob Dancer's book. I appreciate how professionals
need to squeeze out every bit of EV, & I appreciate how some others
enjoy seeking 100%+ opportunities for "the thrill of the hunt." But I
also think some people miss opportunities for enjoyment because
they're fixated on the "positive expectation" boogieman.

Stuart (RandomStu)
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/mypage.htm

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

coupla tenths of a percent is serious money. For $500,000 a year I
can afford to play JOB with a little cashback and get great
vacations for a small fraction of their real value to me. Anything
better, from Super Double Bonus to NSUD to Double Bonus is gravy.
And I enjoy the action.

This is exactly the case nowadays. The "play quarter VP and get
handed the world on a silver platter" days are long gone. It's
borderline fraudulent that books that imply (and sometimes boldly
state) this are still on the market. YOU CAN'T MAKE SIGNIFICANT
MONEY PLAYING VP NOWADAYS. What you CAN do is play borderline-
negative EV games at casinos that will reward your action. If the
value TO YOU of the comps you receive is more than your theoretical
loss, then you are getting free recreation, essentially.

I play fairly heavily at the Palms ($1 triple Play NSUD; $1 DB; $1
10/6 DDB) about once a week; i average about 30K coin-in. At NSUD I
figure to lose about $120 a session. Call it a monthly loss of $500.
Now, in return, this month I got $400 in free play, $150 in food
comps, $25 in spa credit, 4 free car washes, etc. This was in
addition to the earned slot club points which, since I play on
double point days only, was worth 1/2 of one percent in comp value,
or roughly $600. This is negative EV VP played at positive
expectation as far as I'm concerned!

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, chiefvrwc@c... wrote:

Exactly.

Dancer churns $20 million (I think he's used that number) and a