vpFREE2 Forums

Poop Talk

To statistically prove a RNG is slightly biased would take quite a
bit of testing (I think this is never done after a machine is on the
floor) and the chances of being caught is very low.
Why would a casino risk loosing their buisness? Well people are
greedy and a very small edge (not really proveable) would be huge in
a years play.

That's why they call it gambling. You fight the odds and you

fight the

integrity of the game owner.

From: Bill Velek [mailto:billvelek@a…]
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 2:47 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Poop Talk

Jodi's Mail wrote:

> I AGREE. THIS IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. A LOT OF PROS ARE

BEGINNING

> TO WONDER..EVEN ME, WHO WOULD OF NEVER THOUGHT OF THIS IN MY

WHOLE 10

> YRS OF PLAY REGARGLESS OF MY TERRIBLE LOSING STREAKS IN THE

PAST.

> JODIE

snip

> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333"

<rockofjello333@y...>

> > wrote
> > >
> > ... I've NEVER seen--or heard
> > of for that matter--Gaming officials marching into a casino

floor

> > unannounced and grabbing a VP machine, to have it taken back

to the

> > lab. I know how easy it would be to, for instance, have the

A's come

> > up slightly less often, or the 2's on a DW machine. Just a

little

> > biasing on the part of thr "RNG" (there is no such thing as an
> > actual Random Number Generator) and there goes our 0.7%

advantage,

> > poof, just like that. Just a thought...I don't like the idea

of

> > spending $1 million bucks (that's what we dollar players shove

into

> > the machines in a year) and not being SURE everything is on

the

> > level.

snip

Well, a combination of ...
1.) ... the risk of an anonymous tip by a disgruntled casino

employee,

pinpointing the exact machine and how it is rigged, to a ...
2.) ... public official or gaming commission member who wants to

make a name

for himself, coupled with ...
3.) the logic that the casino already has, on average, enough of

an edge to

not want to risk its lucrative business trying to gain maybe just

a fraction

of a percent by cheating.

This assumes that the laws permit a gaming commission member,

either on his

own whim or at the prodding of a bureaucrat, to enter a casino at

any time

and pick any machine for inspection, without a search warrant; I

assume that

the laws are set up that way, and if they aren't, they should be.

With the

ability to walk in at any time and pick any machine without

explanation or

justification, the casinos wouldn't have any way of knowing which,

if any,

employee had ratted them out, but even if those in the know are so

limited,

there is still a substantial risk that they would be reported. I

know that

in that particular business there is a chance of a car bomb or a

visit in

the middle of the night from very unfriendly people, but when the
consequences could cost millions or even billions of dollars to

big industry

creating a real incentive for all sorts of crime including murder,

there are

still some courageous (or
crazy) folks who will blow the whistle. In dealing possibly with

organized

crime, I would assume that the witness protection program could be

used, as

well as handsome rewards for information.

The above also presumes that the edge from cheating would be small

enough to

not make the gamble of cheating worthwhile to the casino. I would

hope that

the fine and risk of loss of license, as well as bad public

relations, would

be so great that they wouldn't want to take the chance. Of

course, being

just a recreational player myself, I don't lose too much sleep

worrying

about that sort of thing; I am quite happy to lose a small session

stake

each visit in exchange for a great time and relatively generous

comps. To

me the gambling loss is the cost of my entertainment/hobby. The

fact that

maybe it is costing me an average of $80.00 instead of $75.00 a

day, given

my satisfaction with all that I get for that money anyway, doesn't

cause me

too much concern.

Just my two cents.

Cheers.

Bill Velek

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···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "larry" <horsey@n...> wrote:

-----Original Message-----

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

All these discussions have failed to take into account most casinos
are owned by large publicly traded corporations. We all know these
corporations would never participate in some underhanded deceptive
practices to skew their bottom line. They are honest as the day is
long. Can you say "Enron"?

Rick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rosspark100" <rosspark100@h...> wrote:

To statistically prove a RNG is slightly biased would take quite a
bit of testing (I think this is never done after a machine is on the
floor) and the chances of being caught is very low.
Why would a casino risk loosing their buisness? Well people are
greedy and a very small edge (not really proveable) would be huge in
a years play.

— In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "larry" <horsey@n…> wrote:
> That's why they call it gambling. You fight the odds and you
fight the
> integrity of the game owner.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Velek [mailto:billvelek@a…]
> Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 2:47 AM
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Poop Talk
>
> Jodi's Mail wrote:
>
> > I AGREE. THIS IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. A LOT OF PROS ARE
BEGINNING
> > TO WONDER…EVEN ME, WHO WOULD OF NEVER THOUGHT OF THIS IN MY
WHOLE 10
> > YRS OF PLAY REGARGLESS OF MY TERRIBLE LOSING STREAKS IN THE
PAST.
> > JODIE
>
> snip
>
> > — In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333"
<rockofjello333@y…>
> > > wrote
> > > >
> > > … I've NEVER seen–or heard
> > > of for that matter–Gaming officials marching into a casino
floor
> > > unannounced and grabbing a VP machine, to have it taken back
to the
> > > lab. I know how easy it would be to, for instance, have the
A's come
> > > up slightly less often, or the 2's on a DW machine. Just a
little
> > > biasing on the part of thr "RNG" (there is no such thing as an
> > > actual Random Number Generator) and there goes our 0.7%
advantage,
> > > poof, just like that. Just a thought…I don't like the idea
of
> > > spending $1 million bucks (that's what we dollar players shove
into
> > > the machines in a year) and not being SURE everything is on
the
> > > level.
>
> snip
>
> Well, a combination of …
> 1.) … the risk of an anonymous tip by a disgruntled casino
employee,
> pinpointing the exact machine and how it is rigged, to a …
> 2.) … public official or gaming commission member who wants to
make a name
> for himself, coupled with …
> 3.) the logic that the casino already has, on average, enough of
an edge to
> not want to risk its lucrative business trying to gain maybe just
a fraction
> of a percent by cheating.
>
> This assumes that the laws permit a gaming commission member,
either on his
> own whim or at the prodding of a bureaucrat, to enter a casino at
any time
> and pick any machine for inspection, without a search warrant; I
assume that
> the laws are set up that way, and if they aren't, they should be.
With the
> ability to walk in at any time and pick any machine without
explanation or
> justification, the casinos wouldn't have any way of knowing which,
if any,
> employee had ratted them out, but even if those in the know are so
limited,
> there is still a substantial risk that they would be reported. I
know that
> in that particular business there is a chance of a car bomb or a
visit in
> the middle of the night from very unfriendly people, but when the
> consequences could cost millions or even billions of dollars to
big industry
> creating a real incentive for all sorts of crime including murder,
there are
> still some courageous (or
> crazy) folks who will blow the whistle. In dealing possibly with
organized
> crime, I would assume that the witness protection program could be
used, as
> well as handsome rewards for information.
>
> The above also presumes that the edge from cheating would be small
enough to
> not make the gamble of cheating worthwhile to the casino. I would
hope that
> the fine and risk of loss of license, as well as bad public
relations, would
> be so great that they wouldn't want to take the chance. Of
course, being
> just a recreational player myself, I don't lose too much sleep
worrying
> about that sort of thing; I am quite happy to lose a small session
stake
> each visit in exchange for a great time and relatively generous
comps. To
> me the gambling loss is the cost of my entertainment/hobby. The
fact that
> maybe it is costing me an average of $80.00 instead of $75.00 a
day, given
> my satisfaction with all that I get for that money anyway, doesn't
cause me
> too much concern.
>
> Just my two cents.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Bill Velek
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
~–>
> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/E0TolB/TM
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-~->
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links

i've seen igt machines put into a test mode by gaming board personal
on supposedly random visits
they run it about an hour and log hands, also they check for tampering
and that procedures are being followed, log book is being used, etc.
it's very rare, i don't know how many simulated hands are collected
and of course the diag program itself could be modified just as easily
as the game program
every 50,000 coin sequential i've seen they remove the board and send
it somewhere, i've been told to the state testing lab for
verification, i've also been told that casinos insure big jackpots, so
someone else pays them when they pay off, hence the requirement for
independent verification that tampering has not occured

To statistically prove a RNG is slightly biased would take quite a
bit of testing (I think this is never done after a machine is on

the

floor) and the chances of being caught is very low.
Why would a casino risk loosing their buisness? Well people are
greedy and a very small edge (not really proveable) would be huge

in

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rosspark100" <rosspark100@h...> wrote:

a years play.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rick & Lucky Lucy"
<luckylucy39@e...> wrote:

All these discussions have failed to take into account most casinos
are owned by large publicly traded corporations. We all know these
corporations would never participate in some underhanded deceptive
practices to skew their bottom line. They are honest as the day is
long. Can you say "Enron"?

Rick

Enron was caught. Let's say for arguement's sake a casino did
decide to alter a machine to its favor illegally. How many people
would know? How do you keep each and every one of them from ever
saying anything? In fact, how do you avoid being blackmailed by
those in the "know". Is it impossible this has/is happening, of
course not. Is it likely, I don't think so.