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From: bjaygold@aol.com
The whole name thing was a fun diversion, albeit pretty useless. As long

as

there is 10/7 DB on those same machines, playing the APDWs would be, at

least

for me, a poor decision. For someone looking to minimize volatility, the
BJOB would be the smart choice.

I believe I saw Skip post that DB has just a slightly higher volatility vs
FPDW (28 vs 26). I'm assuming that APDW & NSUD would have similar volatility
to FPDW. I myself have played DB in the past, but am currently trying to
improve my speed & accuracy so I can hit the machines (at Atlantis & El
Dorado in Reno, and Wynn in Vegas) for many hours on upcoming long-weekend
trips. Based on the volatility figures, I'm expecting that the "feel" of DB,
as far as the ebb & flow of $s over time, will be just a bit more bumpy than
what I'm used to from many long sessions of NSUD. I'm grateful to be able to
get this info from the VP online groups.

I'm wondering if anyone could illustrate the lower volatility of BJOB in a
simple way, for when I find myself (hopefully soon) with the choice of
playing $ DB or BJOB for a 5- or 6-hour session with a bankroll of a couple
thousand dollars for the day. For instance, what are the chances that a $2K
bankroll will last for say 5000 hands at DB vs BJOB? I'd appreciate an
illustration something like that, since it's hard for me to grasp what the
raw volatility numbers mean in practical terms.

Stuart (RandomStu)

Stuart Resnick wrote:

I believe I saw Skip post that DB has just a slightly higher
volatility vs FPDW (28 vs 26). I'm assuming that APDW & NSUD would
have similar volatility to FPDW ... Based on the
volatility figures, I'm expecting that the "feel" of DB,
as far as the ebb & flow of $s over time, will be just a bit more
bumpy than what I'm used to from many long sessions of NSUD.

There's a modest misperception here that may very well be a source for
unrealistic expectations when you hit the casino. The DB/DW numbers
you cite (variance) can be quite misleading as to what to expect in
any given session.

Variance relates to long term play and is a reasonable expression of
expected results when a normal distribution is expected. While this
is the case over the long haul, it's not true in the near term and
consequently variance is a poor measure by which to base trip
expectations.

There are two key differences that affect the feel of a DB session vs.
that of DW. The first is that the second lowest DW payout is 2 for 1
but only 1:1 in DB. This means that when you aren't hitting the
infrequent high paying hands, DW sustains your credit meter far more
strongly than DB. Adding to this, the hands in NSUD having an
expected occurance of at least one each hour have an ER of about 94%.
In DB, if you exclude any hand paying higher than that of a non-bonus
quad, the ER is about 4% short of that.

In the short run, the downside of 10/7 DB (the volatility aspect with
which players tend to be the most concerned) is considerably stronger
than NSUD.

- Harry

"Stuart Resnick" <sresnick2@c...> wrote:

I'm wondering if anyone could illustrate the lower volatility of
BJOB in a simple way, for when I find myself (hopefully soon) with
the choice of playing $ DB or BJOB for a 5- or 6-hour session with a
bankroll of a couple thousand dollars for the day.

In researching this for myself, I've perhaps answered my own question a
little. Using

http://www.lotspiech.com/GamblersRuin.html

it seems to indicate that if I play 4000 hands of $1 DB, I've got a 10%
chance of losing my $2K session bankroll. With (regular) $1 JOB, the
corresponding figure is < 1%.

Stuart (RandomStu)

Since there's a quote from me in there, I guess I'll point out that I do agree that variance, is NOT a good predictor of short-term swings. The question I addressed had to do with changing one's regular game from quarter FPDW to dollar DB (in other words - a long term question).
  There are any number of ways to approach picking a better short-term game, and it all depends on how many hands one is talking about. I have liked to use something like Harry's "hands you figure to hit within one hour's play". This includes any quad in JB or DB games or 5/Kind or less in DW. But I have also looked at it figuring that if you figure to get one or two of a particular hand in an hour, there's an excellent chance you will get NONE. (It's not the normal distribution we really care about). So, suppose we make the cutoff below those "likely", once or twice an hour hands:

-W/O hitting a four of a kind or better, JB returns 91% and DB returns 82%, while FPDW returns about 84.5% w/o hitting a 5 of a kind or better and about 89% without hitting a WRF or better. 5/kind is more frequent than JB 4/kind, while WRF is less frequent so a better comparison is probably in between.

- Another angle:
83% of the time, FPDW will result in a loss or a push (assuming normal "max EV" strategy). For DB that number is 88%. For JB, it's only 76%. This is a significant stat, as anyone who has played DB (especially multiline DB) will tell you. A run of even a relatively short time of getting nothing better than two pair will drain your credits like a Hoover on steroids.

In all of these comparison JB is has significantly less short-term "volatility" than DB (big surprise) while DW is in between. For the No-Win-Credit-Sucker angle DW is closer to DB than JB, but from the contribution of the Hands-You Should-Get-Every-Hour-But-Don't angle it's closer to JB than DB.

BTW, Stu's note does say "over time", so I'm not at all sure he's talking about short term considerations.

As I often note in discussions like this, "volatility" can be either good or bad, depending on what you're looking for. There's a reason DDB is so popular.
Skip

Harry Porter wrote:

···

Stuart Resnick wrote:

I believe I saw Skip post that DB has just a slightly higher volatility vs FPDW (28 vs 26). I'm assuming that APDW & NSUD would have similar volatility to FPDW ... Based on the volatility figures, I'm expecting that the "feel" of DB,
as far as the ebb & flow of $s over time, will be just a bit more bumpy than what I'm used to from many long sessions of NSUD.
   
There's a modest misperception here that may very well be a source for
unrealistic expectations when you hit the casino. The DB/DW numbers
you cite (variance) can be quite misleading as to what to expect in
any given session.

--
Thanks!
Skip
http://www.vpinsider.com

My apologies for not changing the subject of this note when I posted this. If anyone replies to it, I hope you do so.
Skip

Skip Hughes wrote:

Since there's a quote from me in there, I guess I'll point out that I do agree that variance, is NOT a good predictor of short-term swings. The question I addressed had to do with changing one's regular game from quarter FPDW to dollar DB (in other words - a long term question).

Blah, blah, blah...

···

--
Thanks!
Skip
http://www.vpinsider.com

Skip Hughes wrote:

Since there's a quote from me in there, I guess I'll point out that
I do agree that variance, is NOT a good predictor of short-term
swings ...

There are any number of ways to approach picking a better
short-term game, and it all depends on how many hands one is talking
about ... But I have also looked at it figuring that if you figure
to get one or two of a particular hand in an hour, there's an
excellent chance you will get NONE. So, suppose we make the cutoff
below those "likely", once or twice an hour hands

At the risk of overkill, I'll extend this thread and describe how I
apply this (with a modification).

When I'm considering the downside of an abbreviated period of play, I
tend to be looking at a play period of something like 10,000 hands.
I'm loathe to entirely discount the contribution of moderately
infrequent hands (those "one or two per hour" hands). But there's no
doubt that uncomfortable droughts of these hands do occur and give
reason for some discount in factoring their return.

In selecting which hands to "discount" return, I opt for those which
are expected to occur significantly short of 20 times during my
intended play. For these hands I'll cut the expected return to my
play by anywhere from 25% to 100%. I analyze the resulting ER and
variance of my planned play by adjusting hand payouts accordingly and
inputing these values into a program like winpoker.

For the 10,000 hand play noted, if I'm looking at JB I'll be inclined
to include quads at their full value and "0" out the SF and RF. Were
I looking at only 5,000 hands, I'll cut the quad pay by 40%-60%,
depending upon how conservative I wish to be (I'll be far more
forgiving for a $.25 game than $1 or $2).

If, on the other hand, I'm looking at DB and 10,000 hands, I now may
choose to include non-bonus quads at full value, or similarly discount
them by 20% or 30% if I'm looking for a conservative analysis. For
quad 2-4, I'm going to apply a discount of anywhere from 80% to 100%.
You can look for me to totally disregard quad Aces.

It should be clear that I tend to sweat the small stuff. Skip's broad
brush hand exclusions are quite likely to yield more than a
satisfactory gut feel for any given considered play.

In any case, this type of analysis can be quite useful when comparing
alternative plays under consideration. Under certain circumstances,
Jacks may become favored over a game with much higher return, such as
FP Deuces (mind you, particularly extreme circumstances ;). This
becomes especially the case when collecting a bonus is dependent upon
"going the distance" with your desired stake (or, "session bankroll",
if you prefer).

Aside from ER, variance is a very strong factor that should be
considered. Having a 3% edge on ER under this analysis has
significantly smaller advantage when there's a sharply higher variance
involved if you want a strong chance of coming out on top. Once you
discount the contribution of infrequent hands, the variance difference
between games that, on the whole, are close can now become sharply
different.

Programs like winpoker and Frugal pop out the variance in addition to
the ER for this analysis. Try it out with pick'em and Jacks and
you'll immediately see why pick'em can be much more brutal over a
limited number of hours' play.

It's important to bear in mind that in approaching a limited play, if
you anticipate playing a game that you normally hit regularly in your
other play and at your standard denomination, there's little reason to
go through this type of machination. Just make sure you're
sufficiently staked for the session to see you through the desired
play (as you might any other time).

However, if you're considering play of a game with higher variance or
at a higher denomination than what you normally hit, this type of up
front planning can better prepare you for what to expect and lessen
the likelihood of "gambler's remorse" hangover.

- Harry