--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mkl54321 <mkl54321@y...>"
<mkl54321@y...> wrote:
> So Genocide is justifiable if it increases agricultural
efficiency?
No, larger, more technologically advanced cultures will displace
smaller, less technologically advanced ones. This WILL happen, as a
matter of human history and human experience. Whether it's a real
mean and nasty thing to happen is utterly beside the point.
Two can play this game. To justify genocide in the past is to
justify it in the future. Genocide continues to this day. Look at
African and look at Serbia.
> That is really bogus. Yes Whites have been real efficient
alright.
> Since Whites have settled on this continent over 600 species of
> plants and animals have become extinct. Also the vast majority
of
> our rivers, and lakes no longer support the same fish populations
> that they did before White settlement.
The despoilation of the environment is a HUMAN phenomenon, not a
white one. The noble Anasazi deforested the plateau they lived on
and killed off all the game, making their habitations untenable.
The
Hohokam's advanced irrigated culture brought poisonous salts to the
surface and destroyed thousands of acres of fertile land. The
Plains
tribes would eventually have expanded to the point where the bison
population would be wiped out. Lacking, until very recently, an
understanding of how ALL humans interact with their environment,
cultures of ALL types overstressed the natural environment they
lived in. Even the noble savage. (Also, Cro-Magnon man hunted the
wooly mammoth and the giant sloth into extinction, despite his
relatively small numbers.)
You are exagerating the case to justify past U.S. policy. The plains
Indians did not abuse the Bison to degree of Whites. In the end the
Plains Indians became dependent on European technology. They needed
guns and iron products to survive and hence over hunted the buffalo.
See the book "Roots of Dependency" for more info.
> For instance Lake Trout in the Great Lakes used to regularly grow
to
> 100lbs. After over fishing by Whites, the genetic strain and
> population of Lake Trout has been completely weakened. The
genetic
> strain of 100lb Lake Trout no longer exists. Yes us Europeans
have
> been used the land better than the Indians. We've wiped out more
of
> God's creations than anyone else.
>
No Indian ever fished there, I take it. And if he caught a trout by
accident, he interviewed it, apologized to the Trout God, and
lovingly put it back into the waters from whence it came. Or, maybe
he was hungry, and he ate it.
You trying to be funny here. Archeological digs in the Great Lakes
have shown that past Lake Trout were much larger than today. Native
Americans did fish for them by netting and spearing.
> Another thing, historians base their theories on evidence which
is
> more than I can say for the Conservative Talking Heads out there
who
> base their theories on opinions.
>
I'm not sure what you're saying here, but the fact is that
historians actually DO base many of their conclusions on personal
opinion, especially when the whole truth is not known. An informed
opinion is just as good as a fact when it contributes to
understanding.
Any historian worth his or her salt sites every argument he or she
makes. And I'm not talking about coffee table book historians like
Stephen Ambrose but academic historians.
> This debate has gone on too long. This forum should be based on
> video poker not on Native American history.
If that is how you actually feel, then why did you extend this
thread by posting to it? Or do you feel that it's actually okay, as
long as you're the one who has the last word?
Dude, you are the one continuing the debate not I. I'm really
astounded someone would go to such great length to defend the
colonialist exploitation of Native Americans. Isn't the basis of our
democracy the pursuit of Life, Liberty and Happiness. Well America's
Native American policy violated the rights of Indians to pursue there
right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Yes primitive populations accross the world have been exploited but
does it make it right to exploit them in the name of progress. Hell
no! If this is right who is to say someone won't come along and
destroy our culture and our people in the name of progress.
Where does this Indian bashing come from? We need not feel guilty
about the sins of our great, great grandfathers but learn from their
sins so the never happen again. Just because our government acted
incorrectly in the past does not mean we need to feel guilty or that
our government is illegitimate. We need to learn from those mistakes
and never let them happen again.
The ends do not justify the means.
-JFR