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Poker story for Mickey Crimm

I hope members will not flame me for writing in reply to
a posting that Mickey Crimm made. I thought about
sending him a private message (how?) but then thought
others might enjoy the thread, too.

Mickey is one of the posters I enjoy reading and I thought
I would return the favor. The following is the input of a
friend of mine who is in charge of the poker room at one of
the very best Vegas hotels:

As for his advice, as with most things, it is correct in some instances.
"Best Hand" has been around for several years. The math is simple. In a
real game you would be paid off (in his example) three times when your hand
won. By folding the inferior hands and playing only the best hand against
your hand, the team suffers only one loss when you win--not three.

This technique is virtually undetectable in live game play. It IS the
preferred method of cheating in big games and is not unheard of in smaller
limit games.

The technique is detectable in on-line games because the folded hands are
still recorded by the on-line operator and are subject to review. I know of
people who have had their accounts frozen and confiscated when this cheating
was discovered. On-line sites routinely keep a file of who is playing at
all the tables in which you play. If they see a pattern of the same names
showing up, time and again, they will monitor your play for any unusual play
or activity. If they find it, they will freeze your account and if further
investigation shows a pattern of collusive play, they will confiscate the
funds in your account.

So, this guy does know the technique. As for the prevalence, not so much.

In the smaller $1-$2, $1-$3, $2-$5 blind no-limit games, you won't see it in
the larger rooms. The writer makes it sound as if every game in infested
with these vermin. There is so much traffic that it would be virtually
impossible for several guys to maneuver to the same game. They would be
able to do it once or twice, but, our floor people are (supposed to be) on
the lookout for people always trying to group up and play together. If they
saw it too often, they would simply refuse to seat the players at the same
game. IF you do see something like this, it would be two, maybe three, guys
pulling a shot. . .and then only on rare occasions.

What you are more likely to see is the "careless" flashed card as a friend
folds his hand. That is why a dealer is supposed to watch as each card is
discarded. If a hand is accidentally exposed the dealer is instructed to
turn the card face up on the table and leave it there until all other cards
are mucked. If a player intentionally flashes a card, we'll turn both cards
up and then warn the player. If they continue, management is notified.

The bottom line, the technique is accurate, and in use. But not to the
degree of prevalence the writer would have us believe.

Good post. Top hand scamming is also done online, but it's done in a
much more subtle manner, to evade the online site's game protection
software.

I can assure you that most games in Vegas above $75-$150, or for that
matter, almost anywhere, there's business being done in the game.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "George Lee" <glee4ever@...> wrote:

I hope members will not flame me for writing in reply to
a posting that Mickey Crimm made. I thought about
sending him a private message (how?) but then thought
others might enjoy the thread, too.

Mickey is one of the posters I enjoy reading and I thought
I would return the favor. The following is the input of a
friend of mine who is in charge of the poker room at one of
the very best Vegas hotels:

I hope members will not flame me for writing in reply to
a posting that Mickey Crimm made. I thought about
sending him a private message (how?) but then thought
others might enjoy the thread, too.

I'm a big boy. I can take care of myself. Besides, If I'm wrong
about something I want to be the first to know. I would rather be
quickly corrected than to continue to be wrong about something.

Mickey is one of the posters I enjoy reading and I thought
I would return the favor.

Thanx for the complement

The following is the input of a
friend of mine who is in charge of the poker room at one of
the very best Vegas hotels:

Here's a quote from Oklahoma Johnny Hale, a well respected poker
player of several decades and columnist at Pokerplayernewspaper.com,
who just wrote two columns, August 6, and August 13, entitled "The
Red Games of Poker: Cheating at Poker. Quot "Where the carpet is
deepest, you run the most risk of being cheated." He goes on to say
that though he has been cheated at poker, he has been cheated far
more in his life by lawyers, bankers, politicians and other
such "professionals." He also tells the story of a tournament
specialist friend of his who has "bad habits" and goes broke alot but
is a great tournament player. Johnny staked him into a tournament
and the man finished out of the money. Later the man came to him
with a big wad of cash and told him he was "in." He was part of a 10
player red team who agreed to split the money and help each other out
as much as possible. Johnny replied that he himself was "out" and
took the money and donated it to his favorite charity.

As for his advice, as with most things, it is correct in some

instances.

It was Slick's advice, not mine. And it was totally correct. Since
I received his advice, I have had the pleasure of playing with and
talking with many players of his day. There is no debate among them
about whether cheating was going on back in the day; it's a forgone
conclusion. The only debate is over how rampant it was. Some say it
was rampant, others say it was epidemic.

"Best Hand" has been around for several years. The math is

simple. In a

real game you would be paid off (in his example) three times when

your hand

won. By folding the inferior hands and playing only the best hand

against

your hand, the team suffers only one loss when you win--not three.

This technique is virtually undetectable in live game play. It IS

the

preferred method of cheating in big games and is not unheard of in

smaller

limit games.

Steve Forte to investigator: "Sir, I was not cheating!! All that
high tech gadgetry you confiscated from me was used merely to
document a scam."

Old time crossroader to investigator: "I don't know what you're
talking about, pal."

The technique is detectable in on-line games because the folded

hands are

still recorded by the on-line operator and are subject to review.

I know of

people who have had their accounts frozen and confiscated when this

cheating

was discovered. On-line sites routinely keep a file of who is

playing at

all the tables in which you play. If they see a pattern of the

same names

showing up, time and again, they will monitor your play for any

unusual play

or activity. If they find it, they will freeze your account and if

further

investigation shows a pattern of collusive play, they will

confiscate the

funds in your account.

No comment

So, this guy does know the technique. As for the prevalence, not
so much. In the smaller $1-$2, $1-$3, $2-$5 blind no-limit games,

you won't see it in the larger rooms. The writer makes it sound as
if every game is infested with these vermin.

The problem with this statement is it is in the present tense. Slick
is not an "is", he is a "was". Remember the year was 1995 and he was
a retired, mobbed up, pit boss of 30 years. His career went back at
least to the mid sixties. It is well known that his friend Tony
Spilotro was working the poker games at the Stardust. By the way, if
you were a top poker pro of the day and Tony the Ant came to you and
said "Hey, I need your help taking off the poker games at the
Stardust." What would you tell him? No?

There is not one sentence in my "Slick" post that states, suggests,
aludes to, insinutates, or in any other way refers to the low-limit
no-limit holdem (LLNLH) cash games of present day Las Vegas as being
rife with cheating. As a matter of fact they were not mentioned at
all. These games are their own phenomenon and have absolutely no
relationship to the big bet games of the past. They did not grow out
of the games of the past. There werem't any everyday no-limit games
in LV for many, many, years. There are many reasons for their
demise, not the least of which was reputation. Remember what Lincoln
said: You can fool all of the people some of the time....

The LLNLH games of present day didn't start showing up until after
the Moneymaker WSOP. It wasn't long after that that we started
getting people in the limit games that wanted to know "when can I
move all in. LLNLH has taken over LV poker and is THE BEST
OPPORTUNITY IN GAMBLING TODAY.

>

There is so much traffic that it would be virtually
impossible for several guys to maneuver to the same game. They

would be

able to do it once or twice, but, our floor people are (supposed to

be) on

the lookout for people always trying to group up and play

together. If they

saw it too often, they would simply refuse to seat the players at

the same

game. IF you do see something like this, it would be two, maybe

three, guys

pulling a shot. . .and then only on rare occasions.

Take one of Steve Forte's pin cameras up to the deep-carpet joints
and secretly snap a picture of every high stakes game. Do it every
day for a month. Then compare pictures. Then report back the
results.

The bottom line, the technique is accurate, and in use. But not to

the

degree of prevalence the writer would have us believe.

I'll state it again. Slick is a "was", not an "is."

P.S. to the group: I spent two weeks in Las Vegas playing LLNLH and
assessing the situation. I'll make a post on it when I get the
time. Good luck.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "George Lee" <glee4ever@...> wrote: