vpFREE2 Forums

Poker machines

11b. Re: Poker machines
Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 12:23 pm ((PDT))

Let's say they get 150 players for their 2PM tournament.

First response deals with this -- as in the post to which this was a response, someone needs to be there to answer questions, encourage players to enter, etc.

The buy-in is $60 plus a $40 rebuy. You get $1500 in chips. $55
goes to the prize pool, $5 goes to the house.

In reality, the house usually gets more of the $60 at this point.

Now there is the ingenious little invention called the "bonus buy."
For an extra $10 you get another $1000 in chips. Everyone, even the
dimmest wit in the lot, makes this "bonus buy." One would be at too
much of a disadvantage if they didn't. This money, $1500, goes to
the dealers. It is divvied up based on the number of downs each
dealer does in the tournament. A down is 1/2 hour. You would need
about 15 dealers to start the tournament. But you don't need that
many to finish. But by using a rotation you insure that all dealers
do about the same number of downs on a weekly or monthly basis.
Average Dealer would do about 7 downs (3.5 hours) per tournament and
make $100.

In a tournament with a $60 entry, the optional chips, with the purchase price going to the dealers, is usually only $5.

Then there is the rebuy. The house takes $5 out of the $40 rebuy.
About 80% of the field makes the rebuy.

Usually ALL of the rebuy money goes into the prize pool; the house usually only takes money out of the initial buy-in.

Total money taken in: $15,300
Prize pool is now: $12,450
House take is now: $1,350
Dealer take is: $1,500

By dividing $12,450 by $15,300 we come up with a negative equity of
19%.

Then there is the issue of tipping. A highly controverial issue in
today's tournament world. More and more players are no longer
tipping. Back in the old days, the beginning of poker tournaments,
when the issue of dealer compensation came up, the players agreed
that the winners would leave a tip. It worked fairly well back then
when there was a small group of players and everybody knew
everybody. But future players had no say in the issue. Plus,
dealers did get stiffed here and there. But in todays world the
dealers have guarantees. They are being tipped up front by the
entire field. But human nature being what it is, you will still here
dealers complaining about the players that "stiffed them." Figuring
5% of the prize pool getting tipped off means the dealers are making
about $140 per tournament each. With Binion's having a 2PM, 8PM and
2AM tournament everyday, 365 days per year, it is hard for me to
believe that their tournament dealers are starving.

The custom in most tournaments now is to withhold an automatic 3 to 5% of the prize pool for the dealers. When this is done, those who "cash" in the tournament are usually gently reminded that that CAN tip additionally, and the customary amount if there's already been a withhold is just another 3-5%. In all the tournaments I've played in and cashed in, I've NEVER been pressured to tip more than that percentage, and I've always been thanked sincerely for whatever I have actually tipped. The first time I cashed in a tournament, I didn't know the custom, and didn't tip, and wasn't asked to, and never got any heat.

If you are lucky enough to cash in today's event, the person paying
you the money is probably going to be pumping you for a tip with
lines like "It is customary to tip 10% to 15%." This is somewhat
effective on tourist types but doesn't work well on seasoned
players. So a player who never tips would still have negative equity
of 19%, but a player who always tips 5% would have negative equity of
23%, and a player who always tips 10% has negative equity of 27%.

So what if Binion's switched to electronic tables? What would this
scenario look like?

Dealers are no longer needed so the "bonus buy" is eliminated. They
could make it a $70 buyin minus $8 house take, for $2500 in chips.
The rebuy would remain the same. So using the above scenario, with
80% of the field making the rebuy the math would look like this.

Total money taken in: $15,300
Prize pool: $13,500
House take: $1,800

By dividing $13,500 by $15,300 we come up with a negative equity of
only 11.76%. This is livable juice, in my opinion. It is a far
better deal for the player. The extra house take can be used to pay
for the electronic tables.

Overall, if you do the math with the real figures, more of the negative equity goes to the house, and less to the dealer, so elminating dealers won't make as great a difference as presented here. Also, I think it will be reasonable to expect the house to try to give the player only a portion of this "savings", and to increase the house withhold / fee to cover their costs for these high-tech, undoubtedly expensive, poker tables.

The real advantage for the house and the players is that the tournament could get in more hands per hour, presumably, because of the speed of dealing, awarding pots, etc. So where a "normal" tournament might have 20 minute rounds, an automated one could have 15 minute rounds -- the players would STILL get in more hands per round, AND the casino would have the tournament finish more rapidly, so that the players get back to the other table games.

I suppose if the technology were similar to the internet, a player could even choose to stay at their "regular" poker table and play the tournament in another window on their screen, or vice versa, which would be a particular advantage to the house, of course.

--BG

···

==============

I gave you the breakdown for Binion's tournaments. And I showed
everyone on vpFREE how to figure the juice. This is reality, not pie
in the sky. I got my information from the people who run the
tournament, as I always do when I want to break down a tournament.
You have to know how to ask these people questions or you are gonna
get phony answers. Then you have to verify the money taken in and
the money payed out to the players. Have you ever heard a
tournament director announce to the crowd: "Folks, we're only gonna
rake you off for 19% today!" The last thing they want the players in
these daily events to know is how much they are getting raked off
for.

All the daily tournaments in Las Vegas have different break downs,
repeat, different break downs, and Binion's is some of the cheapest
juice in town. How do I know? Because I went around to several
places and asked the right questions, then sat down with my pocket
calculator--that I never leave home without--and figured up the
juice.

Knowing what the juice is is part of the game. AT Binions, UNLESS IT
HAS CHANGED RECENTLY, The break down is: Of the intitial $60 buyin,
$55 goes to the prize pool, $5 to the house. The $10 bonus buy goes
to the dealers. Of the $40 rebuy, $35 goes to the prize pool, $5 goes
to the house. The above is how it breaks down at Binions's, repeat
Binion's.

A friend dealt the WSOP this year. In the final event he made $65
per down. His tips were another $20 per down. $170 per hour.
Starving dealers?

One of the things I like about my pocket calculator is there is no
key for the word "usually" anywhere on it. I don't deal
with "usually." I deal with the seventh decimal.

> 11b. Re: Poker machines
> Date: Fri Oct 5, 2007 12:23 pm ((PDT))
>
> Let's say they get 150 players for their 2PM tournament.

First response deals with this -- as in the post to which this was

a response, someone needs to be there to answer questions, encourage
players to enter, etc.

>
> The buy-in is $60 plus a $40 rebuy. You get $1500 in chips. $55
> goes to the prize pool, $5 goes to the house.
>

In reality, the house usually gets more of the $60 at this point.

>
> Now there is the ingenious little invention called the "bonus

buy."

> For an extra $10 you get another $1000 in chips. Everyone, even

the

> dimmest wit in the lot, makes this "bonus buy." One would be at

too

> much of a disadvantage if they didn't. This money, $1500, goes to
> the dealers. It is divvied up based on the number of downs each
> dealer does in the tournament. A down is 1/2 hour. You would need
> about 15 dealers to start the tournament. But you don't need that
> many to finish. But by using a rotation you insure that all

dealers

> do about the same number of downs on a weekly or monthly basis.
> Average Dealer would do about 7 downs (3.5 hours) per tournament

and

> make $100.

In a tournament with a $60 entry, the optional chips, with the

purchase price going to the dealers, is usually only $5.

>
> Then there is the rebuy. The house takes $5 out of the $40 rebuy.
> About 80% of the field makes the rebuy.

Usually ALL of the rebuy money goes into the prize pool; the house

usually only takes money out of the initial buy-in.

>
> Total money taken in: $15,300
> Prize pool is now: $12,450
> House take is now: $1,350
> Dealer take is: $1,500
>
>
> By dividing $12,450 by $15,300 we come up with a negative equity

of

> 19%.
>
> Then there is the issue of tipping. A highly controverial issue

in

> today's tournament world. More and more players are no longer
> tipping. Back in the old days, the beginning of poker

tournaments,

> when the issue of dealer compensation came up, the players agreed
> that the winners would leave a tip. It worked fairly well back

then

> when there was a small group of players and everybody knew
> everybody. But future players had no say in the issue. Plus,
> dealers did get stiffed here and there. But in todays world the
> dealers have guarantees. They are being tipped up front by the
> entire field. But human nature being what it is, you will still

here

> dealers complaining about the players that "stiffed them."

Figuring

> 5% of the prize pool getting tipped off means the dealers are

making

> about $140 per tournament each. With Binion's having a 2PM, 8PM

and

> 2AM tournament everyday, 365 days per year, it is hard for me to
> believe that their tournament dealers are starving.

The custom in most tournaments now is to withhold an automatic 3 to

5% of the prize pool for the dealers. When this is done, those
who "cash" in the tournament are usually gently reminded that that
CAN tip additionally, and the customary amount if there's already
been a withhold is just another 3-5%. In all the tournaments I've
played in and cashed in, I've NEVER been pressured to tip more than
that percentage, and I've always been thanked sincerely for whatever
I have actually tipped. The first time I cashed in a tournament, I
didn't know the custom, and didn't tip, and wasn't asked to, and
never got any heat.

>
> If you are lucky enough to cash in today's event, the person

paying

> you the money is probably going to be pumping you for a tip with
> lines like "It is customary to tip 10% to 15%." This is somewhat
> effective on tourist types but doesn't work well on seasoned
> players. So a player who never tips would still have negative

equity

> of 19%, but a player who always tips 5% would have negative

equity of

> 23%, and a player who always tips 10% has negative equity of 27%.
>
> So what if Binion's switched to electronic tables? What would

this

> scenario look like?
>
> Dealers are no longer needed so the "bonus buy" is eliminated.

They

> could make it a $70 buyin minus $8 house take, for $2500 in

chips.

> The rebuy would remain the same. So using the above scenario,

with

> 80% of the field making the rebuy the math would look like this.
>
> Total money taken in: $15,300
> Prize pool: $13,500
> House take: $1,800
>
> By dividing $13,500 by $15,300 we come up with a negative equity

of

> only 11.76%. This is livable juice, in my opinion. It is a far
> better deal for the player. The extra house take can be used to

pay

> for the electronic tables.
>

Overall, if you do the math with the real figures, more of the

negative equity goes to the house, and less to the dealer, so
elminating dealers won't make as great a difference as presented
here. Also, I think it will be reasonable to expect the house to try
to give the player only a portion of this "savings", and to increase
the house withhold / fee to cover their costs for these high-tech,
undoubtedly expensive, poker tables.

The real advantage for the house and the players is that the

tournament could get in more hands per hour, presumably, because of
the speed of dealing, awarding pots, etc. So where a "normal"
tournament might have 20 minute rounds, an automated one could have
15 minute rounds -- the players would STILL get in more hands per
round, AND the casino would have the tournament finish more rapidly,
so that the players get back to the other table games.

I suppose if the technology were similar to the internet, a player

could even choose to stay at their "regular" poker table and play the
tournament in another window on their screen, or vice versa, which
would be a particular advantage to the house, of course.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, b.glazer@... wrote:

--BG

==============

>
> The buy-in is $60 plus a $40 rebuy. You get $1500 in chips. $55
> goes to the prize pool, $5 goes to the house.
>

In reality, the house usually gets more of the $60 at this point.

Above you wrote that the house takes more, below you wrote that the
dealers get less. So the house gets $10 and the dealers get $5
instead of the house getting $5 and the dealers getting $10. Wow!
That's a savings to the player of....of....of....NOTHING!!!

>
> Now there is the ingenious little invention called the "bonus

buy."

> For an extra $10 you get another $1000 in chips. Everyone, even

the

> dimmest wit in the lot, makes this "bonus buy." One would be at

too

> much of a disadvantage if they didn't. This money, $1500, goes to
> the dealers. It is divvied up based on the number of downs each
> dealer does in the tournament. A down is 1/2 hour. You would need
> about 15 dealers to start the tournament. But you don't need that
> many to finish. But by using a rotation you insure that all

dealers

> do about the same number of downs on a weekly or monthly basis.
> Average Dealer would do about 7 downs (3.5 hours) per tournament

and

> make $100.

In a tournament with a $60 entry, the optional chips, with the

purchase price going to the dealers, is usually only $5.

So if the hosue gets $10 and the dealers get $5 instead of....Forget
it!

>
> Then there is the rebuy. The house takes $5 out of the $40 rebuy.
> About 80% of the field makes the rebuy.

Usually ALL of the rebuy money goes into the prize pool; the house

usually only takes money out of the initial buy-in.

It does not matter under what heading money is removed or not removed
from the prize pool. Every place has a different configuration.
What matters is the bottom line. How much are you getting raked off
for?

>
> Total money taken in: $15,300
> Prize pool is now: $12,450
> House take is now: $1,350
> Dealer take is: $1,500
>
>
> By dividing $12,450 by $15,300 we come up with a negative equity

of

> 19%.
>
> Then there is the issue of tipping. A highly controverial issue

in

> today's tournament world. More and more players are no longer
> tipping. Back in the old days, the beginning of poker

tournaments,

> when the issue of dealer compensation came up, the players agreed
> that the winners would leave a tip. It worked fairly well back

then

> when there was a small group of players and everybody knew
> everybody. But future players had no say in the issue. Plus,
> dealers did get stiffed here and there. But in todays world the
> dealers have guarantees. They are being tipped up front by the
> entire field. But human nature being what it is, you will still

here

> dealers complaining about the players that "stiffed them."

Figuring

> 5% of the prize pool getting tipped off means the dealers are

making

> about $140 per tournament each. With Binion's having a 2PM, 8PM

and

> 2AM tournament everyday, 365 days per year, it is hard for me to
> believe that their tournament dealers are starving.

The custom in most tournaments now is to withhold an automatic 3 to

5% of the prize pool for the dealers. When this is done, those
who "cash" in the tournament are usually gently reminded that that
CAN tip additionally, and the customary amount if there's already
been a withhold is just another 3-5%. In all the tournaments I've
played in and cashed in, I've NEVER been pressured to tip more than
that percentage, and I've always been thanked sincerely for whatever
I have actually tipped. The first time I cashed in a tournament, I
didn't know the custom, and didn't tip, and wasn't asked to, and
never got any heat.

The 3% thing is for tournamets with a buyin of $1000 or more. There
may be an example or two of lesser buyin tournaments doing the same
but this is definitely not the rule in small buyin tournaments. 3%
of a $40/plus one $20 rebuy tournament doesn't amount to a hill of
beans. In the above statement you confirmed my contention that
players are being hustled for tips.

>
> If you are lucky enough to cash in today's event, the person

paying

> you the money is probably going to be pumping you for a tip with
> lines like "It is customary to tip 10% to 15%." This is somewhat
> effective on tourist types but doesn't work well on seasoned
> players. So a player who never tips would still have negative

equity

> of 19%, but a player who always tips 5% would have negative

equity of

> 23%, and a player who always tips 10% has negative equity of 27%.
>
> So what if Binion's switched to electronic tables? What would

this

> scenario look like?
>
> Dealers are no longer needed so the "bonus buy" is eliminated.

They

> could make it a $70 buyin minus $8 house take, for $2500 in

chips.

> The rebuy would remain the same. So using the above scenario,

with

> 80% of the field making the rebuy the math would look like this.
>
> Total money taken in: $15,300
> Prize pool: $13,500
> House take: $1,800
>
> By dividing $13,500 by $15,300 we come up with a negative equity

of

> only 11.76%. This is livable juice, in my opinion. It is a far
> better deal for the player. The extra house take can be used to

pay

> for the electronic tables.
>

Overall, if you do the math with the real figures, more of the

negative equity goes to the house, and less to the dealer, so
elminating dealers won't make as great a difference as presented
here. Also, I think it will be reasonable to expect the house to try
to give the player only a portion of this "savings", and to increase
the house withhold / fee to cover their costs for these high-tech,
undoubtedly expensive, poker tables.

I did the math with the real figures. I have yet to see any figures
from you. Small buying tournamet players have been taking it in the
shorts for too long. If the house just uses these tables to keep
fleecing the players instead of offering them less juice, they won't
get any action from me. Also, I did the math showing the players
getting a "portion" of the "savings."

The real advantage for the house and the players is that the

tournament could get in more hands per hour, presumably, because of
the speed of dealing, awarding pots, etc. So where a "normal"
tournament might have 20 minute rounds, an automated one could have
15 minute rounds -- the players would STILL get in more hands per
round, AND the casino would have the tournament finish more rapidly,
so that the players get back to the other table games.

Shorter rounds are of absolutely no benefit to a good player. Rather
they are a detriment.

In closing, if you like high juice tournaments, and tipping off big
when you cash, that's fine with me. But count me out.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, b.glazer@... wrote: