vpFREE2 Forums

Poker machines

Another illuminating observation by my friend who is in one
of the biggest card rooms on the strip. Since this is not
strictly videopoker, please indicate whether you rather I do
not post such info:

As for the poker machines, I feel that they'll have a VERY limited
appeal and as such a somewhat limited market.

The places where you will see these machines will be in those
jurisdictions that limited human dealers, markets that have
intermittent demand, and finally events that don't pay to have a
human dealer. I believe that in the long run, the majority of the
player market will take a live dealer over a machine the vast
majority of the time.

Let's look at the three instances I cited::

Jurisdictional limits. There are some Indian casinos that are limited
by state compacts to machines. The ignorance in the state's negotiation
limits the way a game can be played and not the device or method of
play. So, first you saw states (I think South Dakota was one) that didn't
want dice or roulette in their Indian casinos. So, the compact was
written to limit play to machines as gaming devices--but the state never
said what games could or could not be played on the devices. Enter video
roulette and dice. Some states (Wisconsin for example) specifically
limited the type of game played. For them, a machine is mute.

Intermittent demand. That would be cruise ships. Or, possibly
small-time casino operators and bar owners. When demand doesn't
warrant a full-time dealer and staff, operators will opt for the machines.
This way they can get the play and marginal profit without the overhead
of a full-time operation that will sit idle for the majority of the time. The
big markethere is in the two-man table. Bar owners will put them in their
bars for (nudge, wink) "amusement purposes only", but you know damn
well that the guys will drop a $20 for a two-man freeze out.

The final category may well be the market that will make these machines
profitable: small profit events. Take a page from internet poker's
playbook. There is something call micro-limit play. These super-small
buy-in or blind structures cannot produce the profit margins to allow a
brick and mortar casino to offer them. So, when the B&Ms stopped or
didn't offer them, the internet operators found that they could. For mere
pennies, the internet allowed players to buy-in for $10. The players got
value fortheir little bankrolls and the operators got a profit where one was
not available before. The small profit events in the casino are
satellites. Satellites are small buy-in events that allow the winners to move
into the larger events. There are even satellites to get into satellites to get
into the main event!

A typical small satellite would have a $30 buy-in, paying our $200 and
leaving $100 for the house. The standard blind structure for a
satellite will have the event last and average of 90-120 minutes providing
$66 to $50 per game hour revenue. This game revenue figure is 40% of
what a live game would produce in the same spot. So, poker rooms are
reluctant to spread those satellite. Now, replace the dealer with the tables
and the small events now become feasible.

My feeling on the machines is this (and I think it was pointed out by
one of your correspondents): given a choice, people will still prefer live
play with a live dealer--mistakes and all. But, if economic necessity
limits live play, machine tables will be a good alternative. I too saw the
machines in the poker room at The Hard Rock Casino in Hollywood FL.
There we 15 games in the room, all live. The four electronic tables sat in
the corner of the room collecting empty drink glasses. I think that is their
fate.

...

As for the poker machines, I feel that they'll have a VERY limited
appeal and as such a somewhat limited market.

...

These machines may appeal to me for a different reason. I have been
playing on-line, but my experience with live poker at certain off-
strip casinos has been negative mainly because of being unable to see
the flop clearly, especially when seated at the end of the table. The
flop was equally blurry whether I wore reading glasses or without
them. I am hoping poker machines will alleviate this problem.

David

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "George Lee" <glee4ever@...> wrote:

"Where have you gone Larry Ringenberg?"

Larry is an old friend and former poker room manager at Win-A-Vegas in
Iowa, and at Sandia in Albuquerque. He's also a former shift boss at
Canterbury in Minnesota. Per the last time I ran into him, he's
running a little casino in Spokane, Washington.

Larry was an old "carnival barker." He was a promoter from hell! At
Sandia, when things would get a bit slow in the poker room, Larry would
pick up the microphone and within a few minutes half the pit players
were in the poker room. The pit bosses didn't care for Larry much, but
us poker players loved him.

The electronic poker machines will not run by themselves like slot
machines. They have to be promoted correctly. It still takes someone
on the microphone making announcements and starting games or
tournaments.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "d_richheimer" <d_richheimer@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "George Lee" <glee4ever@> wrote:
...

> As for the poker machines, I feel that they'll have a VERY limited
> appeal and as such a somewhat limited market.
...

These machines may appeal to me for a different reason. I have been
playing on-line, but my experience with live poker at certain off-
strip casinos has been negative mainly because of being unable to see
the flop clearly, especially when seated at the end of the table. The
flop was equally blurry whether I wore reading glasses or without
them. I am hoping poker machines will alleviate this problem.

David

>
> ...
>
> > As for the poker machines, I feel that they'll have a VERY

limited

> > appeal and as such a somewhat limited market.
> ...
>
> These machines may appeal to me for a different reason. I have

been

> playing on-line, but my experience with live poker at certain off-
> strip casinos has been negative mainly because of being unable to

see

> the flop clearly, especially when seated at the end of the table.

The

> flop was equally blurry whether I wore reading glasses or without
> them. I am hoping poker machines will alleviate this problem.
>
>
> David
>

"Where have you gone Larry Ringenberg?"

Larry is an old friend and former poker room manager at Win-A-Vegas

in

Iowa, and at Sandia in Albuquerque. He's also a former shift boss

at

Canterbury in Minnesota. Per the last time I ran into him, he's
running a little casino in Spokane, Washington.

Larry was an old "carnival barker." He was a promoter from hell!

At

Sandia, when things would get a bit slow in the poker room, Larry

would

pick up the microphone and within a few minutes half the pit

players

were in the poker room. The pit bosses didn't care for Larry much,

but

us poker players loved him.

The electronic poker machines will not run by themselves like slot
machines. They have to be promoted correctly. It still takes

someone

on the microphone making announcements and starting games or
tournaments.

What if? What if Binion's switched to the electronic tables for
their daily tournaments? Here is how things are now:

Let's say they get 150 players for their 2PM tournament.

The buy-in is $60 plus a $40 rebuy. You get $1500 in chips. $55
goes to the prize pool, $5 goes to the house.

Prize pool: $8250
House take: $750

Now there is the ingenious little invention called the "bonus buy."
For an extra $10 you get another $1000 in chips. Everyone, even the
dimmest wit in the lot, makes this "bonus buy." One would be at too
much of a disadvantage if they didn't. This money, $1500, goes to
the dealers. It is divvied up based on the number of downs each
dealer does in the tournament. A down is 1/2 hour. You would need
about 15 dealers to start the tournament. But you don't need that
many to finish. But by using a rotation you insure that all dealers
do about the same number of downs on a weekly or monthly basis.
Average Dealer would do about 7 downs (3.5 hours) per tournament and
make $100.

Then there is the rebuy. The house takes $5 out of the $40 rebuy.
About 80% of the field makes the rebuy.

Total money taken in: $15,300
Prize pool is now: $12,450
House take is now: $1,350
Dealer take is: $1,500

By dividing $12,450 by $15,300 we come up with a negative equity of
19%.

Then there is the issue of tipping. A highly controverial issue in
today's tournament world. More and more players are no longer
tipping. Back in the old days, the beginning of poker tournaments,
when the issue of dealer compensation came up, the players agreed
that the winners would leave a tip. It worked fairly well back then
when there was a small group of players and everybody knew
everybody. But future players had no say in the issue. Plus,
dealers did get stiffed here and there. But in todays world the
dealers have guarantees. They are being tipped up front by the
entire field. But human nature being what it is, you will still here
dealers complaining about the players that "stiffed them." Figuring
5% of the prize pool getting tipped off means the dealers are making
about $140 per tournament each. With Binion's having a 2PM, 8PM and
2AM tournament everyday, 365 days per year, it is hard for me to
believe that their tournament dealers are starving.

If you are lucky enough to cash in today's event, the person paying
you the money is probably going to be pumping you for a tip with
lines like "It is customary to tip 10% to 15%." This is somewhat
effective on tourist types but doesn't work well on seasoned
players. So a player who never tips would still have negative equity
of 19%, but a player who always tips 5% would have negative equity of
23%, and a player who always tips 10% has negative equity of 27%.

So what if Binion's switched to electronic tables? What would this
scenario look like?

Dealers are no longer needed so the "bonus buy" is eliminated. They
could make it a $70 buyin minus $8 house take, for $2500 in chips.
The rebuy would remain the same. So using the above scenario, with
80% of the field making the rebuy the math would look like this.

Total money taken in: $15,300
Prize pool: $13,500
House take: $1,800

By dividing $13,500 by $15,300 we come up with a negative equity of
only 11.76%. This is livable juice, in my opinion. It is a far
better deal for the player. The extra house take can be used to pay
for the electronic tables.

I agree with George. I don't think electronic tables will take over
the industry. But I do think they can find a niche.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "d_richheimer" <d_richheimer@> wrote:
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "George Lee" <glee4ever@> wrote: