vpFREE2 Forums

pissed at Palms

#1

Despite the fact that last week I had a great run at the Palms - 3 royals on
1 machine, then a dealt royal on 5-play for $20,000 - now I'm pissed at the
Palms and walked out today - essentially boycotting them unless their
marketing strategies change.

As some of you may know, I normally have been playing triple or five play
quarter and $1 VP at the Palms, mostly DDB, and a little NSU, with some reel
slots thrown in.

Though my husband received a mailer for Nov., I did not. When I asked about
it - I was told I didn't "qualify" for a mailer - because though I'd played
probably at least $60,000 through during the qualifying months of July, Aug.,
and Sept., I'd collected my free play and not played (and in fact had pulled
out my card). They said something about having had 19 visits without play -
I don't know why 19 divided into $60,000 = zero mailings - it didn't make a
lot of sense. The woman I spoke to seemed upset that I'd pulled my card
after getting free play - something I've been doing for about 2 years -
apparently their new system now notices this.

Apparently my husband got the mailer because though he played less, he'd
thus qualified for fewer free play mailers, so he'd had fewer "zero play visits"
and thus still got a mailer.

I didn't even qualify for a Free Megabucks pull mailer!

I'm pissed - since for play similar to what we've been doing at the Palms we
are getting stuff like $500 cash plus comps plus regular cashback from
Ballys; $1000 Saks 5th Ave. shopping spree plus regular cashback, plus full or
almost full RFB from LV Hilton, etc.

We've probably played more at the Palms than anywhere else, since it is the
closest casino to us, yet they are giving us the least. And ZERO mailing -
that just doesn't make sense - why not $10 or $20 or $30 or $40 free play per
time instead of the $50 I'd been getting - but ZERO - nada??? For the same
play I've been playing??

I'm not talking about play on 100% machines - I have hardly had any. And
the big wins came after they sent the Nov. mailings out, so that didn't matter.

Final upshot - just sent a long letter to Mr. Maloof re his bad marketing
program - and walked out of Palms in midplay when they phoned me to tell me why
I didn't get mailings - I was playing $1/$2 Triple Play DDB and planning to
play 3-4 hours. Guess what - I could have easily lost far more than any free
play they were going to send me for Nov. But it is the principle of the
thing. I headed over and in fact did lose $1000 at Orleans - this would have
more than "paid" for the measily $200 in Free Play they didn't send me.

Anyone who is equally fed up is encouraged to write George Maloof - and be
sure to mention where you are now playing instead! (One of my friends just
sent him a letter this week!).

Anyone playing at the Palms is warned to play when they pick up free play or
their "daily average" will be lowered.

Anyone thinking of playing $1 NSU at Palms should look into playing $1 NSU
or 9/6 JB at Caesars instead for better treatment. 9/6 DDB players might want
to check out Ballys/Paris.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Despite the fact that last week I had a great run at the Palms - 3

royals on

1 machine, then a dealt royal on 5-play for $20,000 - now I'm

pissed at the

Palms and walked out today - essentially boycotting them unless

their

marketing strategies change.

As some of you may know, I normally have been playing triple or

five play

quarter and $1 VP at the Palms, mostly DDB, and a little NSU, with

some reel

slots thrown in.

Though my husband received a mailer for Nov., I did not. When I

asked about

it - I was told I didn't "qualify" for a mailer - because though

I'd played

probably at least $60,000 through during the qualifying months of

July, Aug.,

and Sept., I'd collected my free play and not played (and in fact

had pulled

out my card). They said something about having had 19 visits

without play -

I don't know why 19 divided into $60,000 = zero mailings - it

didn't make a

lot of sense. The woman I spoke to seemed upset that I'd pulled

my card

after getting free play - something I've been doing for about 2

years -

apparently their new system now notices this.

Apparently my husband got the mailer because though he played

less, he'd

thus qualified for fewer free play mailers, so he'd had

fewer "zero play visits"

and thus still got a mailer.

I didn't even qualify for a Free Megabucks pull mailer!

I'm pissed - since for play similar to what we've been doing at

the Palms we

are getting stuff like $500 cash plus comps plus regular cashback

from

Ballys; $1000 Saks 5th Ave. shopping spree plus regular cashback,

plus full or

almost full RFB from LV Hilton, etc.

We've probably played more at the Palms than anywhere else, since

it is the

closest casino to us, yet they are giving us the least. And ZERO

mailing -

that just doesn't make sense - why not $10 or $20 or $30 or $40

free play per

time instead of the $50 I'd been getting - but ZERO - nada??? For

the same

play I've been playing??

I'm not talking about play on 100% machines - I have hardly had

any. And

the big wins came after they sent the Nov. mailings out, so that

didn't matter.

Final upshot - just sent a long letter to Mr. Maloof re his bad

marketing

program - and walked out of Palms in midplay when they phoned me

to tell me why

I didn't get mailings - I was playing $1/$2 Triple Play DDB and

planning to

play 3-4 hours. Guess what - I could have easily lost far more

than any free

play they were going to send me for Nov. But it is the principle

of the

thing. I headed over and in fact did lose $1000 at Orleans - this

would have

more than "paid" for the measily $200 in Free Play they didn't

send me.

Anyone who is equally fed up is encouraged to write George Maloof -

and be

sure to mention where you are now playing instead! (One of my

friends just

sent him a letter this week!).

Anyone playing at the Palms is warned to play when they pick up

free play or

their "daily average" will be lowered.

Anyone thinking of playing $1 NSU at Palms should look into

playing $1 NSU

or 9/6 JB at Caesars instead for better treatment. 9/6 DDB

players might want

to check out Ballys/Paris.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

All you "Bob Dancer card puller disciples" better change your ways.
The game is over in trying to deceive casinos about losses. The
Palms has every right to determine trip averages any way they want
to. Dancer stated this is what he does in a printed publication so
I am not saying anything he hasn't already said publicly.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, misscraps@a... wrote:

#3

The Palms clearly stated in one of their mailers at the beginning of the
year they would "punish" card pullers. The only thing that surprises me is
how long it took to catch up to you.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: misscraps@aol.com [mailto:misscr…@…com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 11:42 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Cc: vpmail2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] pissed at Palms

Despite the fact that last week I had a great run at the Palms - 3 royals
on
1 machine, then a dealt royal on 5-play for $20,000 - now I'm pissed at the

Palms and walked out today - essentially boycotting them unless their
marketing strategies change.

As some of you may know, I normally have been playing triple or five play
quarter and $1 VP at the Palms, mostly DDB, and a little NSU, with some reel

slots thrown in.

Though my husband received a mailer for Nov., I did not. When I asked
about
it - I was told I didn't "qualify" for a mailer - because though I'd played

probably at least $60,000 through during the qualifying months of July,
Aug.,
and Sept., I'd collected my free play and not played (and in fact had
pulled
out my card). They said something about having had 19 visits without play
-
I don't know why 19 divided into $60,000 = zero mailings - it didn't make a

lot of sense. The woman I spoke to seemed upset that I'd pulled my card
after getting free play - something I've been doing for about 2 years -
apparently their new system now notices this.

Apparently my husband got the mailer because though he played less, he'd
thus qualified for fewer free play mailers, so he'd had fewer "zero play
visits"
and thus still got a mailer.

I didn't even qualify for a Free Megabucks pull mailer!

I'm pissed - since for play similar to what we've been doing at the Palms
we
are getting stuff like $500 cash plus comps plus regular cashback from
Ballys; $1000 Saks 5th Ave. shopping spree plus regular cashback, plus full
or
almost full RFB from LV Hilton, etc.

We've probably played more at the Palms than anywhere else, since it is the

closest casino to us, yet they are giving us the least. And ZERO mailing -

that just doesn't make sense - why not $10 or $20 or $30 or $40 free play
per
time instead of the $50 I'd been getting - but ZERO - nada??? For the same

play I've been playing??

I'm not talking about play on 100% machines - I have hardly had any. And
the big wins came after they sent the Nov. mailings out, so that didn't
matter.

Final upshot - just sent a long letter to Mr. Maloof re his bad marketing
program - and walked out of Palms in midplay when they phoned me to tell me
why
I didn't get mailings - I was playing $1/$2 Triple Play DDB and planning to
play 3-4 hours. Guess what - I could have easily lost far more than any
free
play they were going to send me for Nov. But it is the principle of the
thing. I headed over and in fact did lose $1000 at Orleans - this would
have
more than "paid" for the measily $200 in Free Play they didn't send me.

Anyone who is equally fed up is encouraged to write George Maloof - and be
sure to mention where you are now playing instead! (One of my friends just

sent him a letter this week!).

Anyone playing at the Palms is warned to play when they pick up free play
or
their "daily average" will be lowered.

Anyone thinking of playing $1 NSU at Palms should look into playing $1 NSU
or 9/6 JB at Caesars instead for better treatment. 9/6 DDB players might
want
to check out Ballys/Paris.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#4

A couple of the replies to your post missed the point completely,
focusing instead on your practice of "card pulling". As an aside, I
happen to know that that practice is worse than useless, so I don't
do it, but the basic thrust of your complaint was that you were
getting clobbered because your "trip average" was down due to
collecting free play on some days and then just cashing out.

Well, I've been in and out of the same boat. I'm now at the 8x$50
free play level. If I want to pick this up I have to visit the
casino eight separate times. I may only drop in to eat and pick up
my free play; I may stay for several hours and put in $20K worth of
action. It depends on what sort of time I have that day. So I'm left
with a choice: let the free play go (and I usually only have a day
or two to use it), or pick it up and risk being "downgraded". Now,
when you're getting $400 in free play it seems almost criminal to
NOT use it (it will pay for groceries and gas for the whole family
for the entire month, after all). But here's the Catch-22; either I
commit myself to throwing in $150-200K/month (on negative or
breakeven EV games!) or I have some "no-action visits" and brace
myself to be "downgraded". I've been COMPLETELY wiped off the
mailing list twice for doing this.

After having dumped $2K yesterday at the Palms ($1 DB), I'm in kind
of a foul mood at the place anyway. There's no value in the dollar
games, and if I drop down and start playing quarters, I know from
talking to other people that they won't send me so much as a
postcard (assuming I stick to +EV games). I have enough points
accumulated to feed a small village, so that's not a consideration
(would that they had cashback!). (As an aside, the meal coupons are
almost useless, since they are restricted to only a few days, and
the restaurants are always PACKED on those days.)

I'm forced to conclude that for $1 action, it's best to go to
Orleans or Caesar's or Bally's/Paris, take the EV hit, and let the
mailed offers + slot club bennies compensate.

For what it's worth, I put in some heavy play at Paris a couple of
times and have gotten all SORTS of offers; $500 gift certs, $400
free play, room offers, etc. etc. which have MORE than balanced my
negative EV playing $1 JOB or DDB.

Coast has cashback at .3%, which is strong if you play on a double
points day. No positive $1 games, but NSUD and JOB are playable.
Best thing to do seems to be to play to exactly their top threshold
($10K coin-in for the $25 coupons).

BTW. did you mention to Maloof in your letter, how stupid it is to
use a VISITOR evaluation method (trip average) to evaluate the play
of LOCALS???

#5

Actually you missed the point. She pulls her card so her trip average will
NOT go down. Her trip average is fine because she pulls her card. But the
palms has stopped her email BECAUSE they have implemented a policy to
penalize those who do pull their card.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: rockofjello333 [mailto:rockofjello…@…com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 6:45 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: pissed at Palms; me too

A couple of the replies to your post missed the point completely,
focusing instead on your practice of "card pulling". As an aside, I
happen to know that that practice is worse than useless, so I don't
do it, but the basic thrust of your complaint was that you were
getting clobbered because your "trip average" was down due to
collecting free play on some days and then just cashing out.

Well, I've been in and out of the same boat. I'm now at the 8x$50
free play level. If I want to pick this up I have to visit the
casino eight separate times. I may only drop in to eat and pick up
my free play; I may stay for several hours and put in $20K worth of
action. It depends on what sort of time I have that day. So I'm left
with a choice: let the free play go (and I usually only have a day
or two to use it), or pick it up and risk being "downgraded". Now,
when you're getting $400 in free play it seems almost criminal to
NOT use it (it will pay for groceries and gas for the whole family
for the entire month, after all). But here's the Catch-22; either I
commit myself to throwing in $150-200K/month (on negative or
breakeven EV games!) or I have some "no-action visits" and brace
myself to be "downgraded". I've been COMPLETELY wiped off the
mailing list twice for doing this.

After having dumped $2K yesterday at the Palms ($1 DB), I'm in kind
of a foul mood at the place anyway. There's no value in the dollar
games, and if I drop down and start playing quarters, I know from
talking to other people that they won't send me so much as a
postcard (assuming I stick to +EV games). I have enough points
accumulated to feed a small village, so that's not a consideration
(would that they had cashback!). (As an aside, the meal coupons are
almost useless, since they are restricted to only a few days, and
the restaurants are always PACKED on those days.)

I'm forced to conclude that for $1 action, it's best to go to
Orleans or Caesar's or Bally's/Paris, take the EV hit, and let the
mailed offers + slot club bennies compensate.

For what it's worth, I put in some heavy play at Paris a couple of
times and have gotten all SORTS of offers; $500 gift certs, $400
free play, room offers, etc. etc. which have MORE than balanced my
negative EV playing $1 JOB or DDB.

Coast has cashback at .3%, which is strong if you play on a double
points day. No positive $1 games, but NSUD and JOB are playable.
Best thing to do seems to be to play to exactly their top threshold
($10K coin-in for the $25 coupons).

BTW. did you mention to Maloof in your letter, how stupid it is to
use a VISITOR evaluation method (trip average) to evaluate the play
of LOCALS???

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#6

Sorry, that should read her "mailings" (not email) were stopped. My eyes
aren't working too well this morning.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Randy C [mailto:ran…@…net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 6:56 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: pissed at Palms; me too

Actually you missed the point. She pulls her card so her trip average will
NOT go down. Her trip average is fine because she pulls her card. But the
palms has stopped her email BECAUSE they have implemented a policy to
penalize those who do pull their card.

-----Original Message-----
From: rockofjello333 [mailto:rockofjello…@…com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 6:45 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: pissed at Palms; me too

A couple of the replies to your post missed the point completely,
focusing instead on your practice of "card pulling". As an aside, I
happen to know that that practice is worse than useless, so I don't
do it, but the basic thrust of your complaint was that you were
getting clobbered because your "trip average" was down due to
collecting free play on some days and then just cashing out.

Well, I've been in and out of the same boat. I'm now at the 8x$50
free play level. If I want to pick this up I have to visit the
casino eight separate times. I may only drop in to eat and pick up
my free play; I may stay for several hours and put in $20K worth of
action. It depends on what sort of time I have that day. So I'm left
with a choice: let the free play go (and I usually only have a day
or two to use it), or pick it up and risk being "downgraded". Now,
when you're getting $400 in free play it seems almost criminal to
NOT use it (it will pay for groceries and gas for the whole family
for the entire month, after all). But here's the Catch-22; either I
commit myself to throwing in $150-200K/month (on negative or
breakeven EV games!) or I have some "no-action visits" and brace
myself to be "downgraded". I've been COMPLETELY wiped off the
mailing list twice for doing this.

After having dumped $2K yesterday at the Palms ($1 DB), I'm in kind
of a foul mood at the place anyway. There's no value in the dollar
games, and if I drop down and start playing quarters, I know from
talking to other people that they won't send me so much as a
postcard (assuming I stick to +EV games). I have enough points
accumulated to feed a small village, so that's not a consideration
(would that they had cashback!). (As an aside, the meal coupons are
almost useless, since they are restricted to only a few days, and
the restaurants are always PACKED on those days.)

I'm forced to conclude that for $1 action, it's best to go to
Orleans or Caesar's or Bally's/Paris, take the EV hit, and let the
mailed offers + slot club bennies compensate.

For what it's worth, I put in some heavy play at Paris a couple of
times and have gotten all SORTS of offers; $500 gift certs, $400
free play, room offers, etc. etc. which have MORE than balanced my
negative EV playing $1 JOB or DDB.

Coast has cashback at .3%, which is strong if you play on a double
points day. No positive $1 games, but NSUD and JOB are playable.
Best thing to do seems to be to play to exactly their top threshold
($10K coin-in for the $25 coupons).

BTW. did you mention to Maloof in your letter, how stupid it is to
use a VISITOR evaluation method (trip average) to evaluate the play
of LOCALS???

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#7

The Palms clearly stated in one of their mailers at the beginning

of the

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Randy C" <randyc@U...> wrote:

year they would "punish" card pullers.

=========================

It's a no brainer when casino X sends me $50 in free play and my
wife (who's card is linked to my account) gets 4x points. It's only
smart to play the free slot play and then switch to her card to get
4x points.
I would imagine that eventually, the casino management will have the
software and rules massaged well enough to suit their needs. I am
the first to admit that the casinos don't owe anyone a living. But,
to exploit the loop holes is just plain human nature.

#8

Hey there

I have to disagree with you. To put it in a better perspective, the
great casino mogul, Donald Trump, might call it the "art of the
deal". It's the deal the casino offers. They set the rules. We work
the best "deal" for us players using their rules. It's not
exploitation; it's just good business. Casino man Donald would be
proud of us. It's kind of like an Apprentice challenge; our
corporations go to the casino. The corp that makes the most $$ wins
this week and up to the suite. The corp that makes the least $$ goes
to the board room. Unfortunately, one gets fired and he's down to the
street. Playing vp for profit makes more sense to me than washing
dogs in Central Park. Maybe Donald could use a live poker challenge.
It's a well known theory, good live poker players make good business
people.

Just a few thoughts. I don't ever think players exploit casinos. It's
more like casinos exploit players.

Have a good one......Jeep.
.
.
..>>casinos don't owe anyone a living. But,

···

to exploit the loop holes is just plain human nature.