Great Blue Heron casino in Port Perry has 4 $1 full pay Pick'Em
machines. Towards the back, North end of the slot room.
Fort Erie racetrack/slots has 6 $5 full pay Pick'Em machines. Tucked
off near the cafeteria way to the right as you enter the slot area.
nick
I have a friend who is a tech at Fort Erie. There is no such thing as
a full pay VP machine at any of the state run casinos. Anything above
nickels is set at 87%. It doesn't matter who the manufacturer of the
machine is or what the pay scale is set at. You are playing 87% VP. you
would have the same chances on a slot machine.
Great Blue Heron casino in Port Perry has 4 $1 full pay Pick'Em
machines. Towards the back, North end of the slot room.Fort Erie racetrack/slots has 6 $5 full pay Pick'Em machines.
Tucked
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "nicolasbello" <nbello@...> wrote:
off near the cafeteria way to the right as you enter the slot area.
nick
I hope that any of you folks that believe that the games are fixed no longer play at those casinos.
Not all machines are random. There are different gaming classes of machines manufactured in the US.
There is a class of machines manufactured for US Racinos and Indian Reserves that are not random.
They emulate a bingo game, these are the ones with angels etc.
The other class of machines is for "real" Casinos, these are the machines that you see in Las Vegas and in Ontario.
These machines if manufactured in Nevada must by law deal randomly.
The casinos can change the outcome of the game by changing the paytable.
I have seen so many people playing short coin and just plain badly on awful paytable machines, that I don't believe that cheating
is required by the casinos in order to make lots of money.
Can you imagine what the press would do to a government whose agency was rigging machines to cheat the public ?
You folks can believe whatever you like. I will do likewise.
I will not get into a debate on the issue, and I hope you all won't mind if I don't make any other posts on this subject.
It is too much like arguing religion.
Best of luck to all
Regards
A.P.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Can you imagine what the press would do to a government whose agency was rigging
machines to cheat the public ?
The press in Canada long ago argued and accepted that the government's blessing on
gambling to raise additional taxes IS cheating the public. I tried several times a few years ago
to get the press to do an article on the playing fairness of machines. The response I got was
that it had been covered by the attention VLT's (Video Lottery Terminals) was getting at the
time and were not interested in doing anything further.
You folks can believe whatever you like. I will do likewise.
I will not get into a debate on the issue, and I hope you all won't mind if I don't make any
other posts on this subject.
It is too much like arguing religion.
I agree with you. It is a no win issue (pun intended) and so I will put it to rest.
Cheers,
Tigger
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Pearson" <a-p@...> wrote:
You've got it A.P.
I've been studying, reading and writing about video poker, and
gambling in general and have talked to many gaming experts and
casino personnel for the last twenty years or so and know this to be
true. (It almost exhausts me to write this, yet again one more time,
but here goes...."THE CASINOS DON'T NEED TO CHEAT AND WOULD BE
STUPID TO TRY."
"Terrence "VP Pappy" Murphy, Midwest Casino guide
"People are weak, casinos are strong...enough said."
--VP Pappy
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Pearson" <a-p@...>
wrote:
I have seen so many people playing short coin and just plain badly
on awful paytable machines, that I don't believe that cheating
is required by the casinos in order to make lots of money.
Unless there is a law that states VP machines must be random how is
the casino cheating by offering machines that are not?
I may be wrong but I have never found anything stating the rules for
VP in Canada. If someone has that information I would like to see it.
I have played VP in Las Vegas and Atlantic City for years. I've tried
the 3 Casinos in ontario (Fort Erie, Fallsview, Niagara ). To believe
these machines are anywhere near random is laughable. They actually
play worse than Seneca Niagara and I know New York makes no
distinction between slots and VP machines. Do you think Seneca offers
random VP if not required to by law? I've never seen anything posted
in the casino claiming their VP is random. Are they cheating or
misleading the public?
You are absolutely correct with your statement that casinos don't
need to cheat. Exploiting the ignorance of the patrons keeps the
coffers full.
You've got it A.P.
I've been studying, reading and writing about video poker, and
gambling in general and have talked to many gaming experts and
casino personnel for the last twenty years or so and know this to
be
true. (It almost exhausts me to write this, yet again one more
time,
but here goes...."THE CASINOS DON'T NEED TO CHEAT AND WOULD BE
STUPID TO TRY.""Terrence "VP Pappy" Murphy, Midwest Casino guide
"People are weak, casinos are strong...enough said."
--VP Pappy
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Pearson" <a-p@>
wrote:> I have seen so many people playing short coin and just plain
badly
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "vppappy" <tismurph@...> wrote:
on awful paytable machines, that I don't believe that cheating
> is required by the casinos in order to make lots of money.
There are more than 3 casinos in Ontario, (Windsor, Rama, to name only
two).
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "tghysel" <tghysel@...> wrote:
I have played VP in Las Vegas and Atlantic City for years. I've tried
the 3 Casinos in ontario (Fort Erie, Fallsview, Niagara ).
My responses follow...
I may be wrong but I have never found anything stating the rules for
VP in Canada. If someone has that information I would like to see it.
Generally, the Ontario rules are based on Atlantic City's rules.
I have played VP in Las Vegas and Atlantic City for years. I've tried
the 3 Casinos in ontario (Fort Erie, Fallsview, Niagara ). To believe
these machines are anywhere near random is laughable.
There is a difference between "random" and "fair". If you truly believe
that VP is set to payback 87%, then the machine is in fact RANDOM
(results cannot be influenced by player decisions), but not FAIR (game
is presented fraudulently). Don't forget that casinos do not
manufacture their own machines. Most VP machines are manufactured by
Bally and IGT.
I hope this helps. Replies appreciated.
My responses follow...
> I may be wrong but I have never found anything stating the rules
for
> VP in Canada. If someone has that information I would like to see
it.
>
Generally, the Ontario rules are based on Atlantic City's rules.> I have played VP in Las Vegas and Atlantic City for years. I've
tried
> the 3 Casinos in ontario (Fort Erie, Fallsview, Niagara ). To
believe
> these machines are anywhere near random is laughable.
There is a difference between "random" and "fair". If you truly
believe
that VP is set to payback 87%, then the machine is in fact RANDOM
(results cannot be influenced by player decisions), but not FAIR
(game
is presented fraudulently). Don't forget that casinos do not
manufacture their own machines. Most VP machines are manufactured
by
Bally and IGT.
I hope this helps. Replies appreciated.
Random in a VP machine means that the machine must replicate an
actual dealer as close as possible.
I don't understand how a card game can be "fair".
I have heard others say that Ontario follows New Jersey law but as
yet have not found anyplace that states this. I don't mean to
question you but I find alot of information on these threads are
based on assumptions.
People believe that since the machines are made by a reputable
company that they must all be the same. This is far from the truth.
While certain classes of machines must leave the factory to comply
with Vegas law in no way is a casino bound to leave them that way.
They can alter the machines to comply with local laws.
This is not cheating by a casino unless they falsely advertise a
certain payback percentage. In Vegas you will see machines that state
the payback is 101 percent. I've never seen anything like that when
I played in Ontario. To do this and have a hold percentage on the
machine would be fraud. You are going to get what the paytable tells
you for certain hands. This I guess could be considered fair. Whether
the machines software is set to a hold percentage brings up the
question of random. By this I mean that the players skill is overuled
by the machine. If the machine has a hold the game goes from a game
of skill to a game of luck.
I've only played 3 of the casinos so I can't
comment on all of them.
I will post the actual Vegas law regarding VP. hope it helps
2. Must use a random selection process to determine the game outcome
of each play of a game. The random selection process must meet 95
percent confidence limits using a standard chi-squared test for
goodness of fit.
(a) Each possible permutation or combination of game elements which
produce winning or losing game outcomes must be available for random
selection at the initiation of each play.
(b) For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling
games, the mathematical probability of a symbol or other element
appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the mathematical
probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling
game. For other gaming devices, the mathematical probability of a
symbol appearing in a position in any game outcome must be constant.
(c) The selection process must not produce detectable patterns of
game elements or detectable dependency upon any previous game
outcome, the amount wagered, or upon the style or method of play.
3. Must display an accurate representation of the game outcome.
After selection of the game outcome, the gaming device must not make
a variable secondary decision which affects the result shown to the
player.
4. Must display the rules of play and payoff schedule.
5. Must not automatically alter paytables or any function of the
device based on internal computation of the hold percentage.
Hope this clears up the terms random and fair.
--- In vpFREE_Canada@yahoogroups.com, "djmcosmo" <djmcosmo@...> wrote: