Is Peppermill freeplay on video poker worth approximately 50 or 100% of face value? My last time there freeplay on table games was worth about 50%. The chips were only good for one time, win or lose. Thanks again for your help.
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Is Peppermill freeplay on video poker worth approximately 50 or
100% of face value?
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
PM free play is just that. You enter the amt you wish to play from
what is credited by the passport club and just play. It's there
waiting each period. If playing single dollars the initial poke as a
delt or made RF could be $4K just like your own $5. You may cash out
what you win not the credit given. Instance above I'd grab the W2G
and run. Thus the odds of what you'll win from credit are the same
odds as the game you play. As 2 of us usually splitting the play, and
from out of town, we usually get $300 at our level which hangs about
1/3 of Diamond there or decent high platinum with all the rooms and
meals we can ever use from 6+ visits we take along with room and
really low comps up at the Lake same trip for a few days. We actaul,l
plan to usually eat once at Horizon Joshe's Lobster Special as the
best restaurant in Tahoe for 1/2 Harrah's price. We waste some .25
after dinner and hit a RF really often compared to across US50 in the
swank. You tell me why?
At PM she pulls out about $150 in play and cashes each win as TO and
hands the remains to me still on the meter and I too cash as I play.
Usually one wins more than $150 one less than $150. Sometimes we both
get more often both less. It is a whole bunch like playing VP on
credit as that's exactly what it is but for the TO option.
Mr Money's Challange credits are added in as you get the chance there
during the trip. There's often a PM daily cert print out with a
card of the week for 4K. I usually keep that in wallet playing 100
play. Any 4K pop up on score board lower area I squint at the lil 100
boxes to see and I always get one match eventually. I let her play
Mr Money tho as she's unconscious and I'm a miserable sum builder
upper. EA
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, hedonist144 <hedonist144@...> wrote:
hedonist144 wrote:
Is Peppermill freeplay on video poker worth approximately 50 or 100%
of face value? My last time there freeplay on table games was worth
about 50%. The chips were only good for one time, win or lose.
As EA suggests, value the freeplay at face (minus any negative EV of
the game).
You value a matchplay or promotional "bet once" chip at half value
(again, adjusting for any negative ER) on an even money table prospect
because the chip is pulled back on a win and not left to ride -- as
Jean outlines in her near-encyclopedic "More Frugal Gambling" reference.
She goes on to note that you get the biggest bang for their money if
you can wager on a long odds bet, where your proceeds from a win are a
large proportion of what you'd otherwise have on the table from a
wager comprised entirely of your own bucks.
- Harry
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:
hedonist144 wrote:
> Is Peppermill freeplay on video poker worth approximately 50 or
100%
> of face value? My last time there freeplay on table games was
worth
> about 50%. The chips were only good for one time, win or lose.
As EA suggests, value the freeplay at face (minus any negative EV of
the game).She goes on to note that you get the biggest bang for their money if
you can wager on a long odds bet, where your proceeds from a win
are a
large proportion of what you'd otherwise have on the table from a
wager comprised entirely of your own bucks.- Harry, now she's in MY Game!
While I'd never aspire to win a disagreement with Jean's Royal "WE
should always", I have a different slant on matchplay. Sure wager
leverage works using the free ride with minimum to cover required, a
whole bunch depends on why you play. One Peppermill daily cert gives
BJ free ace with the bet amount matched. There's an odds beater and
no need to even peek it just says hit this. I guess a counter might
await hi card advantage to pull it out but the amount is not that
serious. Just drop the bill and cert and play it.
On Roulette where I tried to make money last nights long years back
to earn comps before VP, I now play to unwind the cramps from hours
long VP. Sometimes the family joins in and we all grab a stack and
go. A decent match play there ranges from pay out 35-1 on numbers and
1-1 on "Even" bets all risking 94.74% odds on a double O wheel half
that single O with some small variations in the play. OK, the worst
bet exists betting the Zero(s) and I,2,3 for worse odds. I usually
wander by late might and place my bet outside with the cert and cover
and go that roll. I'm almost always black as while I play I play the
black numbers around the 0 and 00 greens just because that's what I
always do and get me a mid table 17 black in addition cause that what
players do. If the match bet hits and was at least $25 I buy a stack
of color and play my game which is NOW going at 35-1 on 8 black
numbers, most adjoining,on the spread for betting ease. Drop 2 chips
on line between. Is a lot like poor odds VP in that I have a set of
rules constant in numbers and amounts and cheat a lot early when the
bets are low until a double is needed to win. Half of my play is now
the match play win until I rebuy. So in my game she's wrong as the
lowest odds is the match bet. Highest odds are the follow on. If it
lost? I usually await another opportunity for same reason I never
play lower than full pay VP as a loser game wont make up in comps
which are fierce to earn on tables. I'm neither a couner or golden
touch same reason as the #111 at 4 AM. Gots to be able to read easy.
EA
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@>
wrote:
>
> hedonist144 wrote:
> > Is Peppermill freeplay on video poker worth approximately 50 or
100%
> > of face value? My last time there freeplay on table games was
worth
> > about 50%. The chips were only good for one time, win or
lose.
>
> As EA suggests, value the freeplay at face (minus any negative EV
of
> the game).
>
>
> She goes on to note that you get the biggest bang for their money
if
> you can wager on a long odds bet, where your proceeds from a win
are a
> large proportion of what you'd otherwise have on the table from a
> wager comprised entirely of your own bucks.
>
> - Harry, now she's in MY Game!>While I'd never aspire to win a disagreement with Jean's Royal "WE
should always", I have a different slant on matchplay. Sure wager
leverage works using the free ride with minimum to cover required,
a
whole bunch depends on why you play. One Peppermill daily cert
gives
BJ free ace with the bet amount matched. There's an odds beater
and
no need to even peek it just says hit this. I guess a counter might
await hi card advantage to pull it out but the amount is not that
serious. Just drop the bill and cert and play it.On Roulette where I tried to make money last nights long years
back
to earn comps before VP, I now play to unwind the cramps from hours
long VP. Sometimes the family joins in and we all grab a stack and
go. A decent match play there ranges from pay out 35-1 on numbers
and
1-1 on "Even" bets all risking 94.74% odds on a double O wheel
half
that single O with some small variations in the play. OK, the
worst
bet exists betting the Zero(s) and I,2,3 for worse odds. I usually
wander by late might and place my bet outside with the cert and
cover
and go that roll. I'm almost always black as while I play I play
the
black numbers around the 0 and 00 greens just because that's what
I
always do and get me a mid table 17 black in addition cause that
what
players do. If the match bet hits and was at least $25 I buy a
stack
of color and play my game which is NOW going at 35-1 on 8 black
numbers, most adjoining,on the spread for betting ease. Drop 2
chips
on line between. Is a lot like poor odds VP in that I have a set of
rules constant in numbers and amounts and cheat a lot early when
the
bets are low until a double is needed to win. Half of my play is
now
the match play win until I rebuy. So in my game she's wrong as the
lowest odds is the match bet. Highest odds are the follow on. If it
lost? I usually await another opportunity for same reason I never
play lower than full pay VP as a loser game wont make up in comps
which are fierce to earn on tables. I'm neither a couner or golden
touch same reason as the #111 at 4 AM. Gots to be able to read
easy.
EA
I forgot, the match play is usually for outside bets only! Can't
hardly go a long shot! Perhaps she may reconsider. EA
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "DIP" <crazydonconcepts@...> wrote:
We had 3 overlapping $500 freeplays along with the $25 often in their
booklet (total $1525) at Peppermill last month. This rarely happens.
The best I can remember was 2 overlaps before. I grinded out the
entire $1525 on 10 cent DB for almost 4 hours. I walked away with
$1575. I also earned a whopping $9 from Mr Money due to a 4K coupon
for faces and Aces which I forgot to use until about 5 minutes before
Midnight when it would have expired. Luckily, I hit 4 Kings just
barely in time. The next morning, while grinding out the $9 on the
same machine, some guy sat down and promptly hit the RF for over $600
(resets to $400).
Anyway, I prefer to slowly grind out freeplay on the lowest
denomination with highest EV. My experience supports my theory that
it increases the probability of returning close to and sometimes
higher than the freeplay value. I've sometimes had big hits while
playing freeplay at various casinos, including RFs.
Lisa thinks I'm nuts for this approach. To each their own.
Big Ken
Is Peppermill freeplay on video poker worth approximately 50 or
100%
of face value? My last time there freeplay on table games was worth
about 50%. The chips were only good for one time, win or lose.
Thanks
again for your help.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, hedonist144 <hedonist144@...> wrote:
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bigkensd wrote:
Anyway, I prefer to slowly grind out freeplay on the lowest
denomination with highest EV. My experience supports my theory that
it increases the probability of returning close to and sometimes
higher than the freeplay value. I've sometimes had big hits while
playing freeplay at various casinos, including RFs.Lisa thinks I'm nuts for this approach. To each their own.
Hard to say if she's made the right call without greater info. You
could well be behaving "rationally"; all depends upon your overall
goals for play and whether your target for the free play runs contrary
to them.
------
The theory you assert is dead on: In general, vp results are left
skewed -- that is, more session results fall short of game EV than
exceed ... but the distribution to the right of EV is longer tailed
(you generally can walk away with many more credits than what are at
risk on the losing side).
However, the more hands that are played in a given session, the more
centrally distributed results are around EV (the curve becomes less
skewed and more evenly balanced). Thus, reduce denom and play more
hands (whether single play or counting all hands within multiline,
provided the multiline bet isn't considerably larger than for the
higher denom play) and a greater percentage of session results will
exceed EV -- just as you've observed.
------
So, if coming out better than expected on the Free Play is the key
target, you're making a smart move.
I also get the sense from the greater body of your post that you find
a lot of satisfaction in coming away from Free Play with the better
part of the credit intact. Reduce variance (dropping denom but,
again, don't overstretch any multiline wager bump up) and you can
expect to suffer less risk that you might lose most or all of the play
credit. Smart move again if this is a key goal.
------
However, at heart is the question of where EV rates in your play
goals. The defining characteristic of an advantage player is that
they'll opt for the play returning the greatest EV/hr (not necessary
the greatest ER) that is supported by their bankroll).
When selecting between two plays of equivalent ER (both within their
bankroll ROR tolerance), the AP goes for the one that most efficiently
generates a positive return since the more coin-in they can score
within a given hour, the greater the trip EV.
Give up ER, and likely EV, to move to a lower denom play (more often
the case than not) then the logic becomes questionable assuming an
"eyes on the prize" approach.
While you might satisfy the the initial two goals suggested above,
it's at the expense of EV -- not an AP move. In the greater scheme of
things, those two goals are of no advantage. If you don't stress them
in your standard play choices, there's rarely a reason to adopt them
for free play.
------
It all comes down to goals; your behavior runs counter to advantage
play targets -- but then, most people play to other aims, quite
rationally.
- Harry
(if it seems I blundgeon a topic like this to death, it's not simply
to "hear myself talk" ... I hope the logic within yields sensible
general insight that extends beyond the immediate topic.) Of course,
I type far too fast for the good of others 
hit the RF for over $600
(resets to $400).Anyway, I prefer to slowly grind out freeplay on the lowest
denomination with highest EV. My experience supports my theory that
it increases the probability of returning close to and sometimes
higher than the freeplay value. I've sometimes had big hits while
playing freeplay at various casinos, including RFs.Lisa thinks I'm nuts for this approach. To each their own.
Big Ken
>
> Is Peppermill freeplay on video poker worth approximately 50 or
100%
of face value? My last time there freeplay on table games was
worth
about 50%. The chips were only good for one time, win or lose.
Thanks
again for your help.
>
> ---------------------------------
> > Ken I agree, as while she pulls hers at the hi Limits bar on $1
DB, I take what's left and start on the only .25 100Play box left at
PM. We players got the VIP bunch to get rid of the .01 and .02 games
where folks would play one line for a nickle for hours. Since I never
really ran out of funds and the same $150 credit remained in my
TITO fist full you could say I cashed out the $12,000 next night on
the free play even tho I started with a $3,000 marker. It gave me one
pull and $25 credit left.
BTW, Diane Morales is now back in Reno at El Dorado and can again
contact her players. She's having her first dinner on Thurs at 6PM
at Roxie's. Had a no contact 6 months with PM players when she left
and spent time in Shreveport. It is certain the Carinos are out for
Reno blood in the local's market. We try to balance mid level VIP
Play at all locations which means pretty selective playing. As non
local visitor you get pretty much what you want in all the places you
attend as really can't use things like car wash and weekday golf. EA
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bigkensd" <kmorrissd@...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, hedonist144 <hedonist144@> wrote:
In "More Frugal Gambling" I talk about all these aspects that have been discussed in this thread. There is no one answer that fits all. But here is the exact words in a box called "Non-even-Money Coupons."
"Almost all matchplays can be used only on even-money bets. However, if you get one that can be wagered on non-even-money bets, the optimal use is to bet it on the longest long shot available - like straight-up on a number.
"Example: If you're betting a $25 matchplay (use it once and lose it whether you win or lose) at single-zero roulette, betting on an even-money bet - black/red, odd/even, etc. - yields an expected return of $11.48. But taking a shot straight-up on a number jumps the EV to $22.98. The problem is that you pay for your extra EV with extreme variance. But if you're well-capitalized and you're allowed to bet your matchplays on non-even-money propositions, it makes sense to maximize the EV in this way."
I would add now that this makes more sense if you plan to have the opportunity to do a lot of this kind of betting so you are more likely to achieve this long-term advantage.
________________________________________
Jean $�ott
The new " FRUGAL VIDEO POKER
SCOUTING GUIDE" and other frugal
products are available at my Web site,
http://queenofcomps.com/.
Harry wrote: <<The defining characteristic of an advantage player is that
they'll opt for the play returning the greatest EV/hr (not necessary
the greatest ER) that is supported by their bankroll.>>
Harry, maybe it is semantics, but I think I would have to respectfully disagree with this statement. We have been playing advantage VP for over 18 years now, and we almost never have used EV/hr. Or, maybe we have and I just figure it differently.
I am a nut on highest ER possible at your chosen denomination. The reason is that I think a lot of people use EV/hr as an excuse for playing above their bankroll. You have to be VERY careful in realistically looking at the bankroll needs when you go up in denomination but that means a reduction in EV.
Now that I have written the above, I realize that we do maximize our profit per hour - but I never say, "We are making xxx dollars per hour." We have a ER "floor" that we don't usually go below and we always think in ER terms.
So, Harry, I guess I don't disagree with you - but I do think a warning is in order for people who do think in $$ per hour.
________________________________________
Jean $�ott
The new " FRUGAL VIDEO POKER
SCOUTING GUIDE" and other frugal
products are available at my Web site,
http://queenofcomps.com/.
queenofcomps wrote:
Harry wrote: <<The defining characteristic of an advantage player is
that they'll opt for the play returning the greatest EV/hr (not
necessary the greatest ER) that is supported by their bankroll.>>Harry, maybe it is semantics, but I think I would have to
respectfully disagree with this statement. We have been playing
advantage VP for over 18 years now, and we almost never have used
EV/hr. Or, maybe we have and I just figure it differently.I am a nut on highest ER possible at your chosen denomination. The
reason is that I think a lot of people use EV/hr as an excuse for
playing above their bankroll. You have to be VERY careful in
realistically looking at the bankroll needs when you go up in
denomination but that means a reduction in EV.Now that I have written the above, I realize that we do maximize our
profit per hour - but I never say, "We are making xxx dollars per
hour." We have a ER "floor" that we don't usually go below and we
always think in ER terms.So, Harry, I guess I don't disagree with you - but I do think a
warning is in order for people who do think in $$ per hour.
Well, Jean -- semantics are a real minefield at times. Among other
things, words can carry different meanings depending upon context or
perspective.
I made the EV/ER distinction because while max-ER often defines the
best available play choice, it doesn't always.
Let me put this to you ... assume two play choices:
-- $1 single play, ER 101%, $5000 coin-in/hr.
-- $.50 5-play, ER 100.75%, $8800 coin-in/hr.
Assuming that either play is well within your play tolerance and that
you have reasonably equal prospects of surviving your desired session
length, which play do you choose? I'll go with the 5-play in having
the higher EV (i.e., you expect to walk away with more cash).
There's an anology to this question in economics -- students are
always told not to blind side themselves with ER (internal rate of
return) but to make finance decisions on EV (net present value) instead.
- Harry
<<Let me put this to you ... assume two play choices:
-- $1 single play, ER 101%, $5000 coin-in/hr.
-- $.50 5-play, ER 100.75%, $8800 coin-in/hr.
Assuming that either play is well within your play tolerance and that
you have reasonably equal prospects of surviving your desired session
length, which play do you choose? I'll go with the 5-play in having
the higher EV (i.e., you expect to walk away with more cash).>>
I would do the same, Harry - so I guess you and I aren't at odds on this question after all.
<<There's an analogy to this question in economics -- students are
always told not to blind side themselves with ER (internal rate of
return) but to make finance decisions on EV (net present value) instead.>>
Good comparison!
________________________________________
Jean $�ott
The new " FRUGAL VIDEO POKER
SCOUTING GUIDE" and other frugal
products are available at my Web site,
http://queenofcomps.com/.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "queenofcomps" <queenofcomps@...>
wrote:
<<Let me put this to you ... assume two play choices:
-- $1 single play, ER 101%, $5000 coin-in/hr.
-- $.50 5-play, ER 100.75%, $8800 coin-in/hr.Assuming that either play is well within your play tolerance and
that
you have reasonably equal prospects of surviving your desired
session
length, which play do you choose? I'll go with the 5-play in having
the higher EV (i.e., you expect to walk away with more cash).>>I would do the same, Harry - so I guess you and I aren't at odds
on this
question after all.
Should have mentioned in original response is Suni/Sheia apple
and orange. Free and match are seldom equal. To begin, one is FREE
other costs at least a match $?bill. And that's precise reason a
casino will offer a known good player free. Been watchin since it
all began and I gets to pick the choices based on wishes. Got lots of
them they aint thot of yet. To my interests Free fits in a VP game
and Match is jes fer fun. EA____________________
Jean $¢ott
The new " FRUGAL VIDEO POKER
SCOUTING GUIDE" and other frugal
products are available at my Web site,
http://queenofcomps.com/.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "queenofcomps" <queenofcomps@>
wrote:
>
> <<Let me put this to you ... assume two play choices:
>
> -- $1 single play, ER 101%, $5000 coin-in/hr.
> -- $.50 5-play, ER 100.75%, $8800 coin-in/hr.
>
> Assuming that either play is well within your play tolerance and
that
> you have reasonably equal prospects of surviving your desired
session
> length, which play do you choose? I'll go with the 5-play in
having
> the higher EV (i.e., you expect to walk away with more cash).>>
>
> I would do the same, Harry - so I guess you and I aren't at odds
on this
> question after all.> Should have mentioned in original response is Suni/Sheia apple
and orange. Free and match are seldom equal. To begin, one is
FREE
other costs at least a match $?bill. And that's precise reason a
casino will offer a known good player free. Been watchin since it
all began and I gets to pick the choices based on wishes. Got lots
of
them they aint thot of yet. To my interests Free fits in a VP game
and Match is jes fer fun. EA____________________
> Jean $¢ott
> The new " FRUGAL VIDEO POKER
> SCOUTING GUIDE" and other frugal
> products are available at my Web site,
> http://queenofcomps.com/.
>
Pardon, is one equalibrium. Either pops a $1199+ win? A gifted W2G
miracle appears borne aloft by gift horses begging alms. Look em in
the moufh and toss at most an Alex. What a life! EA
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "DIP" <crazydonconcepts@...> wrote:
Is Peppermill freeplay on video poker worth approximately 50 or 100%
of face value? My last time there freeplay on table games was worth
about 50%. The chips were only good for one time, win or lose. Thanks
again for your help.
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fresh news as of 5PM. Arrived at PM 4:30 and proceeded to Hi LImits to
meet friends. Had exact $300 freeplay on myself alone mining trip. Took
on $5 JoB and in 8 pulls had taken out $520. All small wins $25 $50
$75 $ 125 etc but last no win spent final $25. Guess I best find a
real good deal to spend on a hi odds. Guy out on sidewalk has 3 shells
and a pea. Says I guess right I get $10K. What to do? Help. EA,
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, hedonist144 <hedonist144@...> wrote: