vpFREE2 Forums

Penalty Cards

#1

At the outset, I'll acknowledge that I'm apparently a different breed
of video poker player than many of you. To me, part of the challenge,
(and fun), of this hobby, is learning the computer correct strategy of
the various games I expect to encounter in the various casinos I visit.

That said, I simply cannot fathom the perverse delight some posters
seem to take in acknowledging that penalty card situations do exist,
and ignoring them because of their relatively small impact. Why give
up anything to the casino, no matter how small?

To me, the argument that we all make significantly larger errors while
playing, and we can therefore ignore these smaller ones is fatuous.
Yes, not being superhuman, nor robots, we do make errors. Why plan for
more?

For a game as relatively easy to learn as 9/6 JOB, I just don't buy the
argument that learning and applying the half dozen penalty card
situations somehow cripples one's ability to play the rest of the hands
quickly and accurately.

I mean, how hard is it, really, to look at a suited queen-ten, with an
off-suit ace, determine, whether or not there is a third, lower card of
the same suit as the queen-ten in the hand, and hold ace-queen rather
than queen-ten if there is? The situation for jack-ten suited with an
off-suit king is exactly the same. None of the other penalty card
situations are particularly complicated, either.

There are a lot of other games with significantly more,(and more
complicated) penalty card situations than 9/6 JOB. Perhaps in some of
those, ignoring penalty cards at some small cost, versus making the
effort to learn and properly apply the penalty card rules makes some
sense. But 9/6 JOB? Not in my opinion.

Neil

#2

Actually, there are quite a few more than half a dozen penalty card
situations for 9/6 JOB. If taken to an extreme (as you seem to want
to do) there are 1292 distinct situations that can arise in this game.
To completely account for every penalty situation, no matter how
small, would require a strategy that is much more complicated than
the one generated by existing VP software.

···

On Wednesday 03 August 2005 09:14 am, neilemb wrote:

At the outset, I'll acknowledge that I'm apparently a different breed
of video poker player than many of you. To me, part of the challenge,
(and fun), of this hobby, is learning the computer correct strategy of
the various games I expect to encounter in the various casinos I visit.

That said, I simply cannot fathom the perverse delight some posters
seem to take in acknowledging that penalty card situations do exist,
and ignoring them because of their relatively small impact. Why give
up anything to the casino, no matter how small?

To me, the argument that we all make significantly larger errors while
playing, and we can therefore ignore these smaller ones is fatuous.
Yes, not being superhuman, nor robots, we do make errors. Why plan for
more?

For a game as relatively easy to learn as 9/6 JOB, I just don't buy the
argument that learning and applying the half dozen penalty card
situations somehow cripples one's ability to play the rest of the hands
quickly and accurately.

#3

That said, I simply cannot fathom the perverse delight some posters
seem to take in acknowledging that penalty card situations do exist,
and ignoring them because of their relatively small impact. Why give
up anything to the casino, no matter how small?

Because, frankly, some of us prefer playing the game called "video poker" over the game called "Excel Spreadsheet." :wink:

#4

Well, the question to you is, how accurately do you personally
actually play 9/6 JoB?

I know that personally I don't play well enough to justify spending
more time than necessary learning all penalty card situations. In JoB
penalty cards probably cost around 0.01%, and that cost isn't
spread evenly between all the situations.

0.01% over 5000 hands (one day of play) is 2.5 coins. For a
recreational player like myself, that's irrelevant for all practical purposes.

Let me put it in perspective from my point of view. Playing a low pair
instead of a 4-card flush costs 2 coins; I used to do that mistake quite
often until recently. Missing an ace-low 3-card SF costs 0.3 coins, and
playing KQJ rainbow instead of KQJ9 costs 0.15 coins; those are mistakes
that I'm still doing sometimes. Worse, a brain fart like I've had not long ago
(playing 4SF instead of a pat flush, doh) cost me a whopping 13 coins,
enough to ruin an entire week worth of playing perfect penalty cards.

Heck, I actually know some of the penalty card situations, because for
a while I practiced with software that would correct me right away on
any mistake I made. I've quickly learnt the case of suited T, which seemed
to be the most frequent. The cases of 4F over 3RF and AKQJ over JQs
are more rare, and I've yet to see the last case during practice (I know
where it is in the strategy chart, but I have no clue what it is about). I've
found that I played more accurately if I played with no immediate feedback
and then got my statistics out at the end of the sessions, so that the
penalty cards I miss won't strike me and will only show up as a blip at
the end, which I'll ignore until they are a significant part of my cost for
not playing perfectly.

So, until I play within 0.05%, I won't bother learning the situations that
involve penalty cards. And then my time would be much better spent
learning enough FPDW or DB. After all, FPDW with 1% errors or DB with
0.5% is better than perfect 9/6 JoB. And I already know that I will not
even attempt to learn all the penalty card situations in FPDW or DB.

Of course, YMMV. And if you enjoy learning absolutely perfect JoB,
by all means go for it and enjoy the game, I won't be the one stopping
you.

JBQ

···

On 8/3/05, neilemb <nembree@aol.com> wrote:

But 9/6 JOB? Not in my opinion.

#5

Some of us also prefer "winning" which is the bottom line. No wonder
you need not worry about back rooming :slight_smile:

> That said, I simply cannot fathom the perverse delight some posters
> seem to take in acknowledging that penalty card situations do exist,
> and ignoring them because of their relatively small impact. Why

give

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Thomas <jfthomas3@c...> wrote:

> up anything to the casino, no matter how small?

Because, frankly, some of us prefer playing the game called "video
poker" over the game called "Excel Spreadsheet." :wink:

#6

Wow, some people just can't let losing an argument go, can they?

···

On Aug 3, 2005, at 2:14 PM, Michael Boutot wrote:

Some of us also prefer "winning" which is the bottom line. No wonder
you need not worry about back rooming :slight_smile:

#7

The casinos don't tell you how many mistakes you make, so all I have to
go on is the results of my practice at home. Unfortunately, my JOB
results don't really reflect how I play, since, at various times, I
have been goofing around on the game.

As a test, I just played two 500 hand sessions. I'm embarrassed to say
that I played like crap. To be honest, I would not have been surprised
at all to have zero errors. Instead, I made four in each 500 hand
segment, all of the "bonehead" variety. My accuracy was 99.84%. I was
playing at around 1230 hands per hour. I do not play anywhere close to
that speed in a casino, with my money on the line.

In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have bothered to express my views on
the penalty card issue. I held back for some considerable time,
because I knew I would likely offend some people. But the notion that
learning and applying penalty card rules in 9/6 JOB requires a
herculean effort finally got to me.

Your approach of learning to walk before you run is correct. I hope
that once you're comfortable with your non-penalty card play, you'll
not discard the idea of incorporating them in your game, because it's
not really very hard.

Neil

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Jean-Baptiste Queru <jbqueru@g...> wrote:

Well, the question to you is, how accurately do you personally
actually play 9/6 JoB?

#8

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Jean-Baptiste Queru <jbqueru@g...>

wrote:

> Well, the question to you is, how accurately do you personally
> actually play 9/6 JoB?
>

> As a test, I just played two 500 hand sessions. I'm embarrassed

to say

that I played like crap. To be honest, I would not have been

surprised

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "neilemb" <nembree@a...> wrote:

at all to have zero errors. Instead, I made four in each 500 hand
segment, all of the "bonehead" variety. My accuracy was 99.84%.

**********************************************************
99.84% of 99.54% is about 99.28?? practice with a stratergy card
next time as it helps.

I was

playing at around 1230 hands per hour. I do not play anywhere

close to

that speed in a casino, with my money on the line.

*****************************************************

you might be surprised how fast you play in a casino!

In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have bothered to express my

views on

the penalty card issue. I held back for some considerable time,
because I knew I would likely offend some people. But the notion

that

learning and applying penalty card rules in 9/6 JOB requires a
herculean effort finally got to me.

************************************************************
Since you have not yet master it,maybe it does??

Your approach of learning to walk before you run is correct. I

hope

that once you're comfortable with your non-penalty card play,

you'll

not discard the idea of incorporating them in your game, because

it's

not really very hard.

Neil

***************************************************************
except you have not yet mastered the game , so maybe it is a little
harder than you think? & maybe if you took the approach of walking
before running you could??

I use the 99.44% chart when i play JOB for the same reason i used
simple hi/lo count when i played bj, rather be simple & perfect than
complicated & mistake prone.
M J

#9

In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have bothered to express my views on
the penalty card issue.

It's an interesting discussion, and it allows to show how different
members of the list approach the issue.

But the notion that learning and applying penalty card rules in
9/6 JOB requires a herculean effort finally got to me.

I agree that it's not herculean in 9/6 JoB. It's 6 simple rules. I just say that
they might not be the most costly mistake that a player makes. That
being said I could probably write down all 6 rules and not get them
totally wrong.

I hope that once you're comfortable with your non-penalty card play,
you'll not discard the idea of incorporating them in your game,
because it's not really very hard.

Like I said, they're getting "naturally" integrated in my game, especially
when I set the training software to notify me immediately of my mistakes.
I believe that most of the time I play those situations correctly anyway.
Those days I mostly focus my learning effort on the mistakes which
statistically cost me the most, and making sure that I know the penalty
card situations will naturally become my top priority when it becomes my
top mistake. I guess that my professional obsession of focusing my
efforts on the biggest problems and knowing that I can't fix them all
is bleeding onto my entertainment life. Those days my JoB focus is
on "don't screw up on a pat straight or a pat flush" and "don't forget to
play single high cards".

Hopefully some day I'll manage to play JoB well enough to be proud of
my results, and FPDW well enough to consistently get better results
than with JoB.

JBQ

···

On 8/3/05, neilemb <nembree@aol.com> wrote:
[...]

#10

neilemb wrote:

In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have bothered to express my views
on the penalty card issue. I held back for some considerable time,
because I knew I would likely offend some people. But the notion
that learning and applying penalty card rules in 9/6 JOB requires a
herculean effort finally got to me.

I may be replaying the discussion incorrectly, but even if it was
expressed, I don't think anyone seriously would argue a "herculean"
effort is required.

I see just one key variable that applies to this discussion. If
someone's of a mind to learn how to handle penalty situations, that's
their business. It's just that there's only so much effort one can
expend at any given time. If someone is giving up .1%-.2% in ER on
mistakes, it doesn't seem sensible to distract their practice in
targeting something that can recover no more than .005%-.01% in most
cases. One has to sensibly pick and choose one's battles.

Of course, I'm sensitive to "either/or" arguements since they're often
made from an unnecessarily restricted mindset. But if someone doesn't
have a game nailed COLD, then there's no way anyone is going to
suggest to me that looking for penalty considerations in that case
isn't a distraction that threatens accuracy.

- Harry

#11

Oh well, I couldn't resist playing with some numbers.

I checked the case of AKQJ against QJ are of the same suit and
the other cards are of a different suit.

If the 5th card is a 9, or if it's of the same suit as QJ, the "penalty card"
rules instructs to play AKQJ instead of QJ.

There are 108 hands with a 9, 216 with a suited card.

Ignoring the case with a suited card costs 0.0601 coins per mistake,
and the situation occurs once every 12032 hands, i.e. costs about
0.0001%.

Ignoring the case with a 9 costs 0.0114 coins per mistake, and the
situation occurs once every 24064 hands, i.e. costs about 0.00001%.

Neither of those is going to keep me awake at night.

JBQ

#12

Thank you for your post. My replies follow....

That said, I simply cannot fathom the perverse delight some

posters

seem to take in acknowledging that penalty card situations do

exist,

and ignoring them because of their relatively small impact. Why

give

up anything to the casino, no matter how small?

Part of the reason that players may ignore penalty card situations
is not just because of accuract, but TIME as well. A player who is
betting $1,000/hr (200 hands/hr @ $5/hand) with a .5% player edge is
the equivalent of a player betting $500/hr (100 hands/hr) with a 1%
player edge. Sometimes a lower player edge (or higher house edge)
may be justified if speed can be increased to compensate.

For a game as relatively easy to learn as 9/6 JOB, I just don't

buy the

argument that learning and applying the half dozen penalty card
situations somehow cripples one's ability to play the rest of the

hands

quickly and accurately.

9/6 Jacks or Better has relatively simple penalty card situations,
but Full Pay Deuces Wild, Double Bonus, and NSU Deuces Wild have
very complex penalty card situations. Also, penalty card situations
can change faster than the "basic" strategy on progressive machines
as the royal flush increases. By ignoring some penalty card
situations, a player can increase his speed and likelihood of
hitting the royal flush progressive in a positive situation.

I mean, how hard is it, really, to look at a suited queen-ten,

with an

off-suit ace, determine, whether or not there is a third, lower

card of

the same suit as the queen-ten in the hand, and hold ace-queen

rather

than queen-ten if there is?

Not everyone is that smart. Some people find it very difficult to
know the correct strategy in certain hands in VP without consulting
a strategy chart. For example, in Spanish 21 (a table game), I know
that the proper strategy for 68 vs. 6 is Hit, but the proper
strategy for K4 vs. 6 is Stand. Most S21 players don't know this and
with often make the wrong play even when carrying a strategy chart!
Perhaps they don't want to "upset" other players at the table who
act like they know what they're doing. In video poker: the player
pressing 2 buttons at once, and playing hands quickly often is less
skilled than the player who takes a few seconds to evaluate a hand
and consult a strategy chart. I know this from personal experience.
I will play 9/6 JOB slowly, and sit next to a guy playing a short-
pay "bonus" machine as fast as possible!

A player who is betting $1.25/hand (5 coins, 25c denomination) in a
negative-expectation situation won't be impacted significantly by
ignoring penalty card situations. A player who is betting $25/hand
(5 coins, $5 denomination) in a positive-expectation situation
should probably incorporate penalty cards into his strategy. I
suspect your situation is the latter. But keep in mind that most VP
players aren't THAT skilled. Once again, thank you for your post.

Replies appreciated.

#13

Neil ........ Learning "perfect" strategy and playing only one type of VP game is feasible. However, it is a lot harder (my experience) to try to learn and play perfect strategy on 3 or more type VP games. I have an easier time using simple/optimum strategies (such as Dan Paymar's) on a number of games because I get bored playing the same game for a long period.

Well, the question to you is, how accurately do you personally
actually play 9/6 JoB?

The casinos don't tell you how many mistakes you make, ...
Your approach of learning to walk before you run is correct. I hope
that once you're comfortable with your non-penalty card play, you'll
not discard the idea of incorporating them in your game, because it's
not really very hard.

Neil

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

···

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#14

99.84% of 99.54% is about 99.28?? practice with a stratergy card
next time as it helps.

I guess you missed the part where I mentioned that all the errors
were of the "bonehead" variety. I define a bonehead error is one
where the correct strategy is known, but not applied due to
oversight, clumsy fingers, or the like. The types of errors were
missing a low pair and drawing to a single high card, hitting the
wrong key and keeping jack-ten unsuited instead of the intended jack-
queen, etc. I don't really think a strategy card would have helped,
(although, I do have one).

>you might be surprised how fast you play in a casino!

I've kept track of my point accumulation often enough to have a
pretty good idea of how fast I play.

Neil

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mklpryy24" <mklpryy24@y...> wrote:

#15

I guess it all depends what you consider to be part of the strategy and
what you consider to be penalty cards, and how you count them.

E.g. for the case "AKQJ beats QJs when the discard is a 9 or is
suited with QJ", you can consider that you have 2 rules (separating
the cases of 9 and suited), or 7 rules (calling out the different possibe
suited cards), or more (calling out the cases where AK are suited or
not), or all the way to 324 (if you call out explicitly every case), or
38880 if you want to call out all the possible orderings of the hands.

Or zero if you integrate the rules in the main strategy and you allow
some flexibility around the notion of a "main rule".
AKQJx where QJx is suited: play AKQJ
AKQJ9 where QJ is suited: play AKQJ
suited QJ
AKQJ

I guess that everyone is free to re-write the strategy any way they
want as long as the result is unchanged.

I'm personally not aware of "penalty card" situations in 9/6 JoB
beyond 3RF w/ AT vs 4F, JQs vs AKQJ, 4S w/ 3hi vs 4SF w/ 2 gaps & 1 hi,
JTs vs KJ, QTs vs AQ, KTs vs K. For me, that's 6 rules. And like I
discussed earlier, none of those makes any kind of significant
contribution to my overall error rate. But it certainly depends on the
way you write your strategy, and there's certainly not a unique way.

JBQ

Oh, and 4-to-a-straight-flush gets beaten by 5-to-a-flush if the discard
is of the same suit. :wink:

···

On 8/3/05, Steve Jacobs <jacobs@xmission.com> wrote:

Actually, there are quite a few more than half a dozen penalty card
situations for 9/6 JOB. If taken to an extreme (as you seem to want
to do) there are 1292 distinct situations that can arise in this game.
To completely account for every penalty situation, no matter how
small, would require a strategy that is much more complicated than
the one generated by existing VP software.

#16

Simple response. For many people the value of VP is calculated in dollars per hour. If I can play faster sometimes it is financially better to play slightly less perfect. For many games I know the penalties and follow them (10/7, JOB, NSUD) for others I actually have a simplified strategy because I do not play the game often enough to spend the time to learn it well enough without having to severely slow down my play to consider all the penalties. However this is only applicable IF the shortened/modified strategy is still sufficiently positive as to not affect the overall play. Basically the game I don't worry about perfect strategy right now is All American. If if appers that the game is going to be available longer than I anticipate OR if it becomes one of my regular plays then perhaps I will invest the time to learn it so my speed si not affected. Right now it does not appear worth it to me.

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "neilemb" <nembree@aol.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:14 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Penalty Cards

At the outset, I'll acknowledge that I'm apparently a different breed
of video poker player than many of you. To me, part of the challenge,
(and fun), of this hobby, is learning the computer correct strategy of
the various games I expect to encounter in the various casinos I visit.

That said, I simply cannot fathom the perverse delight some posters
seem to take in acknowledging that penalty card situations do exist,
and ignoring them because of their relatively small impact. Why give
up anything to the casino, no matter how small?

To me, the argument that we all make significantly larger errors while
playing, and we can therefore ignore these smaller ones is fatuous.
Yes, not being superhuman, nor robots, we do make errors. Why plan for
more?

For a game as relatively easy to learn as 9/6 JOB, I just don't buy the
argument that learning and applying the half dozen penalty card
situations somehow cripples one's ability to play the rest of the hands
quickly and accurately.

I mean, how hard is it, really, to look at a suited queen-ten, with an
off-suit ace, determine, whether or not there is a third, lower card of
the same suit as the queen-ten in the hand, and hold ace-queen rather
than queen-ten if there is? The situation for jack-ten suited with an
off-suit king is exactly the same. None of the other penalty card
situations are particularly complicated, either.

There are a lot of other games with significantly more,(and more
complicated) penalty card situations than 9/6 JOB. Perhaps in some of
those, ignoring penalty cards at some small cost, versus making the
effort to learn and properly apply the penalty card rules makes some
sense. But 9/6 JOB? Not in my opinion.

Neil

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#17

> 99.84% of 99.54% is about 99.28?? practice with a stratergy card
> next time as it helps.

I guess you missed the part where I mentioned that all the errors
were of the "bonehead" variety.

ALL errors are of the bonehead variety , & they would be reduced IF
you practice with a card.

I define a bonehead error is one

where the correct strategy is known, but not applied due to
oversight, clumsy fingers, or the like. The types of errors were
missing a low pair and drawing to a single high card, hitting the
wrong key and keeping jack-ten unsuited instead of the intended

jack-

queen, etc. I don't really think a strategy card would have helped,
(although, I do have one).

If you make mistakes practicing, you WILL make the same mistakes in a
casino , use the card.

> >you might be surprised how fast you play in a casino!

I've kept track of my point accumulation often enough to have a
pretty good idea of how fast I play.

Neil

but you dont always know. you would make fewer mistakes if you START
with a simple statergy, once you got it down THEN move on up to
include penalty cards if you want. But do what you want!!
M J

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "neilemb" <nembree@a...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mklpryy24" <mklpryy24@y...> wrote:

#18

I'm too tired and have had too many beers to deal with this tonight.

Clever (and perhaps sarcastic) reply will follow in a day or so.

neil

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mklpryy24" <mklpryy24@y...> wrote:

ALL errors are of the bonehead variety , & they would be reduced IF
you practice with a card.

#19

Let me simply say that all errors are NOT of the bonehead variety.
Unless of course you define bonehead way to generally. If you are
dealt a pair of nines and are playing fast and one nine does not hold
when you hit the button, you certainly knew the strategy correctly
(and having a strategy card would have made NO difference) but it's
still an error.

I would never call this error "bonehead". In addition, there are many
errors of the bonehead variety (like not seeing the nines), where a
strategy card would, once again, make no difference.

If you're trying to say using a strategy card to slow you down so you
NEVER make an error is a good practice, then say that. However, I
would also disagree with that statement ....

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mklpryy24" <mklpryy24@y...> wrote:

ALL errors are of the bonehead variety , & they would be reduced IF
you practice with a card.
M J

#20

> ALL errors are of the bonehead variety , & they would be reduced

IF

> you practice with a card.
> M J

Let me simply say that all errors are NOT of the bonehead variety.
Unless of course you define bonehead way to generally. If you are
dealt a pair of nines and are playing fast and one nine does not

hold

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mroejacks" <rgmustain@a...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mklpryy24" <mklpryy24@y...> wrote:
when you hit the button, you certainly knew the strategy correctly

(and having a strategy card would have made NO difference) but it's
still an error.

**************************************************************
You mean not checking to make sure the card was held is NOT a
bonehead error???

I would never call this error "bonehead".

**********************************************************8
I think that your example is the definition of a bonehead error

In addition, there are many

errors of the bonehead variety (like not seeing the nines), where a
strategy card would, once again, make no difference.

*******************************************************************
If you dont see the nines how would you know you made an error??

If you're trying to say using a strategy card to slow you down so

you

NEVER make an error is a good practice, then say that. However, I
would also disagree with that statement ....

*********************************************************************
No i am not, but maybe if using a card to practice would mean you are
trying NOT to remember evry situation you would be able to pay
attention to the cards & MAYBE you would see the nines.

My point is ERRORS COST $, using a card WORKS, simple & perfect &
quick is better than complicated & almost & slower.

M J