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Penalty cards in JOB-any recommended reading???

Can anybody please recommend a place that explains the penalty card situations for JOB in understandable terms.

I am using Winpoker and see my mistakes, make adjustments in my play and still mess up some hands. My hard hand error factor is set to .01, and just when I think I got it, I make the same mistakes. I could learn it by rote and memorize the return numbers (that is what is happening slowly), but I am trying to learn why they are coming up that way.

There are so many books out there, I'm looking for a recommendation(s) on the advanced play re the penalty cards. I have the Bob Dancer strategy cards, and when I have them in from of me I'm fine (I think) but the theory is still escaping me on some hands. I am wondering if his "Winning Guides" will do the trick or someone has other recommendations.

One example of what is whacking me::

:1) Jh, 10h, 7h, Ks, 8s. I keep holding the J, 10, 7 (proper play is Ks, Jh) and realize the 8s is a straight penalty, so that's my error I think, and then I get

2) Qh, 10h, 6h, 9d, 8s, and the proper play is Q,10, but the 9 and the 8 are straight penalties and the 6 is a flush penalty as well.....and I can't get my head around what is happening.....and in my mind get the rule for why the difference in play. Why keep the 10 is what I am asking myself in english, I can see why by looking at the numbers??
Guess the numbers rule I understand that but I would love to understand why better...

Something that explains these situations is what I am looking for...

Thanks,

···

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have the Bob Dancer strategy cards, and when I have them in from
of me I'm fine (I think) but the theory is still escaping me on some
hands. I am wondering if his "Winning Guides" will do the trick or
someone has other recommendations.
  
IMHO, the Winning Guides are the most comprehensive and accurate
books on the market. They are not easy reading; they are more like
study guides. But if you are looking for solid analysis and an
explanation of the reasoning behind the obscure penalty card
situations, you will not be disappointed.

Slowpoke

Pid Stu wrote:

Can anybody please recommend a place that explains the penalty card
situations for JOB in understandable terms.

I don't have a source to recommend. However, based upon your post
content I think I can offer up some general guidance, and a little
specific info too, that will prove useful.

Just to cover the bases, let me start with a basic discussion of
penalty cards:

···

------

A penalty card is any discard which, were it instead present in the
balance of the deck for a draw, could potentially form a winning hand
with the held cards.

For example, if you're dealt (5h 10s 8c Jc Kc) and you hold the Jc,Kc
to take a shot at a RF, the 10s discard is a straight penalty to this
hold. It's unavailability for the draw means that there's are fewer
straight possibilities on the draw. (And you'll note the 8c is a flush
penalty also)

The significance of penalty cards is that they weaken the value of the
held cards for the very reason of fewer chances to form a winning hand
on the draw. That means that if you have two alternate feasible holds
for a hand, the weakening of one hold due to penalty cards might be
sufficient to reverse which hold is the stronger one.

------

However, there's no way to evaluate the affect of penalty cards on the
fly during play short of using a tool such as winpoker. That means
that the only way to take them into account in your play is to
memorize the penalty card situations that matter.

There are published strategy cards that incorporate penalty cards in
their hold rules. The software tool, VP Strategy Master, also
determines game strategies with and without penalty card considerations.

But, above all, there's one thing to be stressed: Playing under a
"penalty card" strategy vs. a non-penalty card one only improves your
ER by about .01% in most cases. In my book, that makes the topic the
very last that someone should address in their play. Until the
accuracy of your basic strategy is reasonably refined you're far
better off concentrating on nailing basic strategy. (In my book,
that accuracy hurdle means that the ER hit of basic strategy errors in
your play is less than .05% -- or, as measured in WinPoker, a "Return
%" of at least 99.95% in the Play Analysis "Error Effect" statistics).

It's simply frequenty the case that you're better off eliminating one
basic strategy error in your play rather than handling a dozen or more
strategy error situations correctly.

------

That said, there are some games where there are very common penalty
card situations. In these cases it doesn't hurt to address these
limited cases earlier in your play. I don't find Jacks or Better to
be one of these games. However Double Bonus is another matter.

Take the above example hand, (5h 10s 8c Jc Kc). In double bonus there
are two viable holds: the 3F hold, (8c Jc Kc), and the 2RF hold, (Jc
Kc). In absence of any straight penalty cards to the (Jc Kc) hold,
it's the stronger hold, by about .01 coins. Introduce the 10S
straight penalty and it's the weaker by .04 coins.

The much strong advantage to holding the 3 flush cards when a straight
penalty is present is why the non-penalty strategy advises holding the
3 flush cards as the default. (After all, ignoring infrequent
situations where the wrong pick will only cost you .01 coins isn't
that tragic.)

However, this is a penalty card situation (when combined with the
similar Q,K hand) that frequently arises. When that .01 coin hold
difference is aggragated repeated during play each time the penalty
situation presents itself, it becomes valuable enough that it doesn't
hurt to take it into account so long as it doesn't prove to be a
costly distraction in the end. But it's still the case that it's not
going to buy you much in the big picture and most players are entirely
justified in ignoring the topic.

------

So, let me address the balance of your comments. Without being unduly
rude about it, they may suggest that you might want to pass up dealing
with penalty cards until a little further down the road:

I am using Winpoker and see my mistakes, make adjustments in my play
and still mess up some hands. My hard hand error factor is set to
.01, and just when I think I got it, I make the same mistakes. I
could learn it by rote and memorize the return numbers (that is what
is happening slowly), but I am trying to learn why they are coming
up that way.

Well, it's the general penalty card situations that you would want to
memorize and, as noted, you want to tap an appropriate strategy card
set for VPSM software to do that.

But let me point out that you are only talking about .01 coins or less
here. When you attempt to tackle penalty cards through the "Hard
Hand" Advanced Training Mode of WinPoker, you're picking up a number
of practice holds that are seldom seen in play. I think the far more
practical means by which to tackle the most frequent and significant
penalty card situations is just to note, in your general practice,
what more frequent penalties tend to arise and concentrate on nailing
those cold. For example, while there are a number of penalty card
situations in double bonus, I take pains in my play to only address a
very limited number.

I have the Bob Dancer strategy cards, and when I have them in from
of me I'm fine (I think) but the theory is still escaping me on some
hands. I am wondering if his "Winning Guides" will do the trick or
someone has other recommendations.

I'm not personally familar with either of these products other than in
passing. But I have little doubt that if you're determined to nail
the subject of penalty cards, Dancer's guides are likely an excellent
place to start, given his 100% accurate play obsession.

One example of what is whacking me::

:1) Jh, 10h, 7h, Ks, 8s. I keep holding the J, 10, 7 (proper play
is Ks, Jh) and realize the 8s is a straight penalty, so that's my
error I think, and then I get

2) Qh, 10h, 6h, 9d, 8s, and the proper play is Q,10, but the 9 and
the 8 are straight penalties and the 6 is a flush penalty as
well.....and I can't get my head around what is happening.....and in
my mind get the rule for why the difference in play. Why keep the
10 is what I am asking myself in english, I can see why by looking
at the numbers??
Guess the numbers rule I understand that but I would love to

understand why better...

Er, I guess I can see where you might be getting "whacked out" here :):

Entering in the hand from 1) above into the "Analyze Any Hand" feature
of WinPoker, and assuming the game is 9/6 JB, (Jh 10h 7h) is the clear
favorate, by a sizable .1 coins. (did you enter a typo here?)

In the case of 2), it's simply the case that there aren't any penalty
card considerations that need to be taken into account here. (Qh 10h)
is always the stronger hand over (Q). As I've noted, short of
evaluating the value and probability of all the potential winning
draws to each hold it's simply not possible to determine the best hold
without consulting a standard penalty card strategy.

------

"P.S.", I hope you find the above helpful.

- Harry

Harry Porter wrote:

Pid Stu wrote:
> Can anybody please recommend a place that explains the penalty card
> situations for JOB in understandable terms.

snip

So, let me address the balance of your comments. Without being unduly
rude about it, they may suggest that you might want to pass up dealing
with penalty cards until a little further down the road:

snip

Very good explanations in your post, Harry, but in view of your remark, immediately above, and SlowPoke's comment about Dancer's Strategy cards, I feel that I have something a little different but perhaps just as valuable to contribute to this topic.

First, I have never seen Dancer's cards, so I don't know what they look like; second, I've heard it remarked many times that many penalty situations are not worth bothering with because the cost of slowing down play is perhaps more than the slight cost of just ignoring the penalty.

compensate for all strategy card situations, so it isn't necessary to really understand anything about them or to even be aware that they are penalty situations when they occur. By doing so, I don't need to slow down a bit, and I play with 100% accuracy unless I make a mistake from just not paying attention. However, I think it is handy to understand the basics of penalty cards, especially if attempting to develop or modify a strategy, but I can't imagine sitting there trying to make computations while in the middle of a game. If that's why you're asking, then I think your to penalty cards probably would be best answered by the common idea of just ignoring them most of the time. I guess you just need to set some parameters as to when they are significant enough to matter and how often they occur so that you can get the major ones down pat. My preference is to just incorporate all of that at the same time that I learn a strategy, and then I don't need to 'undo' anything or 'untrain' myself from any bad habits. It might be _slightly_ more complicated at the beginning, but it isn't too hard and very much worth the trouble when you first start.

Good luck.

Bill Velek

···

From my point of view, I use my own strategies which _automatically_

Bill Velek wrote:

From my point of view, I use my own strategies which
automatically compensate for all strategy card situations, so it
isn't necessary to really understand anything about them or to even
be aware that they are penalty situations when they occur.

Now, I'm assuming you intended to write "penalty card" rather than
"strategy card". You seem to be suggesting that your strategies
accurately select the proper hold when they're influenced by the
presence of penalty cards without the need to make reference to them
specifically as such in your strategies, or for you to identify the
penalties in your play.

I'm having a bit of trouble making sense of that and I get the feeling
that you indeed are ignoring the affect of penalties altogether
despite the suggestion that your strategies are 100% accurate.

You might clear things up a bit by indicating how your strategy would
differentiate the holds in the following two 10/7 double bonus hands:

1) 6h Qh Kh 8s 5c
2) 6h Qh Kh 9s 5c

- Harry

So, let me address the balance of your comments. Without being unduly
rude about it, they may suggest that you might want to pass up dealing
with penalty cards until a little further down the road:

Mr. Potter, rest assured I in no way consider your good advice (or anyone else's) rude in any way. I welcome it and appreciate all the detail you included. If someone asks a question he/she should be greatful he gets an answer, and not get their feelings hurt in any shape, way or form...and you certainly did not even come close to anything that I would even consider approaches rude....it's helpful and true.. Alas, I need to walk before I can run....

I will heed your advice and move along not getting obsessed with the penalty cards. I will remember what I can where I can.

Thank you.

Pid

···

Harry Porter <harry.porter@verizon.net> wrote:

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

:1) Jh, 10h, 7h, Ks, 8s. I keep holding the J, 10, 7 (proper play

is Ks, Jh) and realize the 8s is a straight penalty, so that's my
error I think, and then I get

JT7 suited is the correct play
the high card gives it about the same value as a one gap 3SF

2) Qh, 10h, 6h, 9d, 8s, and the proper play is Q,10, but the 9 and

the 8 are straight penalties and the 6 is a flush penalty as
well.....and I can't get my head around what is happening.....and in
my mind get the rule for why the difference in play. Why keep the 10
is what I am asking myself in english, I can see why by looking at
the numbers??

always hold QTs (s=suited) over Q alone (no matter the penalty cards)

here are the primary penalty card plays in 9/6 JOB:

hold QJs over AKQJ if the extra card is not a flush penalty or 9
hold JTs over KJ if there is no flush penalty
hold QTs over AQ if there is no flush penalty

more info:
http://wizardofodds.com/games/jacksorbetter/jacksorbetter.html

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Pid Stu <pid0001@y...> wrote:

HI Stu;
I hope you don't mind my jumping into this discussion a later late. This is
a subject that I have written about quite a lot. It also is near to my heart
because I am of the belief that penalty card considerations are not only
inconsequential for 99.9% of the players, but they may actually be counter
productive.

I will get back to that in a moment, but let's check the actual numbers.
First of all as to 9/6 JB, the difference in return between using penalty
cards and not using penalty cards in your strategy is exactly .00001
(.001%). The raw numbers are .995439 versus .995429 (I'll stick to
percentages from now on).

How many people would walk across the street to a different casino because
it offered .251% cashback compared to .250%? Probably none. Not stopping to
scratch one's butt once an hour will make more difference in return.<g>
Almost anything you do will make more difference.

A very fast quarter player, counting all the stops - for that scratch, or
to order or receive a drink and tip (or just ogle) the cocktail waitress,
visit the restroom, etc. - can average maybe 800 hands per hour. Most
players will average about 5-600 hands per hour or even less when you add in
all those interruptions.

  Using the 800 figure, one will be playing about $1000 an hour. The
additional earnings from using penalty cards amounts to one cent an hour!
One would do much better checking the floor for change on the way out.

True for some other games, there is more difference. I have listed 8 games
below with the difference for each. These are the eight most popular games,
I believe. They are the ones there are or will be Frugal Strategy Cards for
(the last three are not yet in production). The differences range from no
difference at all (PE does not require pen cards) to .013% (KBJW). The
average difference is just .004%. So on average, playing all 8 games, that
very fast quarter JB player could save almost a nickel an hour.

In the interest of full disclosure, I should note that the Frugal Strategy
Cards may use other simplification techniques that also reduce the
theoretical return by another insignificant amount (that return is labeled
FSC). My belief is that the simpler strategy actually results in a HIGHER
return for most people, due to the greater ease in learning the strategies
and remembering them.

  Learning video poker strategies is not an easy task, especially for those
folks who wish to learn more than one game. The more complicated you make
it, the more likely that errors will be introduced. Those who have practiced
with software such as BDPW or FVP know just how much EV just one little
minor mistake can cost you. If playing a more complicated strategy would
cause you to make just one of those mistakes per day, it would easily
outweigh the microscopic difference in return.

JB
w/pen 99.5439
no/pen 99.5429 - .001%
FSC 99.5429 - .001%

DB (10/7)
Pen 100.1725
No pen 100.1674 - .0051%
FSC 100.1673 - .0052%

DW
Pen 100.7620
No Pen 100.7576 - .0044%
FSC 100.7575 - .0045%

KJW
Pen 100.6463
No Pen 100.6332 - .0131%
FSC 100.6327 - .0136%

PE
(Penalty cards are not required for PE.)
No Pen 99.9531
FSC 99.9491 - 99.9531 (the difference is basically a "player's choice")

A/A
100.7221
100.7176 - .0045%

DDB (10/6)
100.0670
100.0653 - .0017%

NSU
99.7283
99.7252 - .0031%

Thanks!
Skip

http://www.vphomepage.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Pid Stu [mailto:pid0…@…com]

Can anybody please recommend a place that explains the penalty card
situations for JOB in understandable terms.

HI Stu;
I hope you don't mind my jumping into this discussion a later late. This is
a subject that I have written about quite a lot. It also is near to my heart
because I am of the belief that penalty card considerations are not only
inconsequential for 99.9% of the players, but they may actually be counter
productive.

Skip, it is funny that you say that cause with all the intelligent responses I got, I came to that conclusion this AM.

I will get Dancer's books for JOB and NSUD and Paymars book and do the best I can with those and the strategy cards.

Where I live in Canada, there are no FPDW or 9/6 JOB so the games are Ugly Deuces or 8/5. I'm learning the 8/5 differs from the 9/6 play. so I think I will burn my brain cells looking at those and forget about the penalty cards, and when I get all of that into my head, maybe the penalty cards will come easily.

There is a little better edge for the DW games up here, but I find JOB is easier but deuces wild more fum, so I am trying to really learn both.

I thank you and all the others who made me realize I am really trying to do something that at this point is probably a bit premature and not really worth it for the amount I am loosing.

Think the key is have the strategy cards close by for those tweener hands and just know how to refer to them when I am stuck, and forget about the extra penny..

Thanks.

···

Skip Hughes <skip-hughes@earthlink.net> wrote:

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

HI Stu;
I hope you don't mind my jumping into this discussion a later

late. This is

a subject that I have written about quite a lot. It also is near to

my heart

because I am of the belief that penalty card considerations are not

only

inconsequential for 99.9% of the players, but they may actually be

counter

productive.

SNIP<

A very fast quarter player, counting all the stops - for that

scratch, or

to order or receive a drink and tip (or just ogle) the cocktail

waitress,

visit the restroom, etc. - can average maybe 800 hands per hour.

Most

players will average about 5-600 hands per hour or even less when

you add in

all those interruptions.

  Using the 800 figure, one will be playing about $1000 an hour. The
additional earnings from using penalty cards amounts to one cent an

hour!

One would do much better checking the floor for change on the way

out.

True for some other games, there is more difference. I have listed

8 games

below with the difference for each.

SNIP

Those who have practiced

with software such as BDPW or FVP know just how much EV just one

little

minor mistake can cost you. If playing a more complicated strategy

would

cause you to make just one of those mistakes per day, it would

easily

outweigh the microscopic difference in return.

JB
w/pen 99.5439
no/pen 99.5429 - .001%
FSC 99.5429 - .001%

DB (10/7)
Pen 100.1725
No pen 100.1674 - .0051%
FSC 100.1673 - .0052%

DW
Pen 100.7620
No Pen 100.7576 - .0044%
FSC 100.7575 - .0045%

KJW
Pen 100.6463
No Pen 100.6332 - .0131%
FSC 100.6327 - .0136%

PE
(Penalty cards are not required for PE.)
No Pen 99.9531
FSC 99.9491 - 99.9531 (the difference is basically a "player's

choice")

A/A
100.7221
100.7176 - .0045%

DDB (10/6)
100.0670
100.0653 - .0017%

NSU
99.7283
99.7252 - .0031%

Thanks!
Skip

http://www.vphomepage.com

> From: Pid Stu [mailto:pid0001@y…]
>
> Can anybody please recommend a place that explains the penalty

card

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Skip Hughes" <skip-hughes@e...> wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> situations for JOB in understandable terms.
>
>

******

Skip,

I think I am about in the 66th percentile of the 99.9%. I play too
many different games, shoot the bull at bartops, but still strive for
100% basic strategy. I think your line of thought is correct.

I own one BD card, the Double Bonus, but only play to the third
level. My other aids are strategies published on various sites,
without penalties.

My one exception is FPDW, where two penalties just jump out at you,
the 2 royal/king high and deuce/2 royal Ace high. Frankly, I can't
remember the others for FPDW.

My speed is slowed down by location (best games are old clunkers),
companions and having fun. Best guess 400 hands/hr while in playing
mode.

I think time spent examining and optimizing drawings/promos/indirect
perks is more important than raw max EV.

BS

Absolutely! I believe this is a much better use of one's (allotted video
poker time than studying esoteric pen CD situations trying to squeeze the
last .001% drop of EV out of a game.
Thanks,
Skip
http://www.vphomepage.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: bluestreak86001 [mailto:GRAYTLEEG…@…com]

I think time spent examining and optimizing drawings/promos/indirect
perks is more important than raw max EV.

I haven't weighed in on this subject before, but what the heck...

I'm split between the two camps (Learn the Game Perfectly vs. Some Errors
Aren't Worth Worrying About). I think if you're going to practice anyway,
you may as well get better and better on at least one "core game" (whatever
your favorite is or the game most plentiful in your area). For all the
other games you play, "pretty good" probably IS good enough.

I practice AA with the error settings at 0.00 (no tolerance). NO, I don't
play AA perfectly. But I DO improve slowly over a long period of time.
After a while, even obscure situations come up enough they start to stick.
And as a few others have pointed out, if you can eek that last little EV out
of a game, why not? What's the worst that can happen? Oh yeah, your head
could explode, and who's gonna clean THAT up?

Just kidding.

ANYWAY, for all other JOB-based games I use some easy-to-remember variation
of "pretty good JOB 9/6 strategy". Someday, when I can play AA absolutely
perfectly (don't hold your breath), OR, when they remove the full pay AA
from KC casinos, I'll start mastering something else.

thanks

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Skip Hughes [mailto:skip-hug…@…net]
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 10:21 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Penalty cards in JOB-any…no all VP games

-----Original Message-----
From: bluestreak86001 [mailto:GRAYTLEEG…@…com]

I think time spent examining and optimizing drawings/promos/indirect
perks is more important than raw max EV.

Absolutely! I believe this is a much better use of one's (allotted video
poker time than studying esoteric pen CD situations trying to squeeze the
last .001% drop of EV out of a game.
Thanks,
Skip
http://www.vphomepage.com

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Skip Hughes" <skip-hughes@e...>
wrote:

HI Stu;
I hope you don't mind my jumping into this discussion a later

late. This is

a subject that I have written about quite a lot. It also is near

to my heart

because I am of the belief that penalty card considerations are

not only

inconsequential for 99.9% of the players, but they may actually be

counter

productive...

Hi Skip,

While I agree with your analysis, count me in the 0.1% group at
least for JoB. Your approach seems similar to Dan Paymar's that
of "optimum play" rather than the Bob Dancer's approach of perfect
play. JoB is basically a boring game; one friend described it as
almost like work. Most penalty card situations involve basically
lousy hands [except perhaps AH KH 10H 5H QD, where you would keep
the 4 Hs because of the penalty card rather than the normal 3 to a
royal]. However when I am dealt Kh 10h 9s 5d 2h, (where you keep
only the K becaue of the 9 (sp) and 2h (fp)), I view the hand with
interest rather than as a routine lousy hand and my enjoyment of the
game is increased. As an amateur I am playing not to optimize my
return counting comps and promotions (because the positive return is
still a small amount per hour) but for enjoyment and considering
penalty cards avoids boredom.

I would speculate that a considerable number of the members of this
forum are in this .01% group, because it is not ecomically rational
for one to devote time discussing vp as opposed to almost
exclusively playing it, if ones objective is to optomize ones
bankroll and comps. Of course, each individual has to make his own
decisions, but I suggest knowledge of penalty cards may increse ones
enjoyment of playing.

David

d_richheimer wrote:

Of course, each individual has to make his own
decisions, but I suggest knowledge of penalty cards may increse ones
enjoyment of playing.

  David; I agree that for those people who play perfectly and are bored,
relieving boredom is a good reason to think about penalty cards. As a matter
of fact it's an excellent reason, since daydreaming can be a problem. I
doubt however, that applies to more than a very small percent of even a
specialized group like this. And that's for people specializing in one
particular game. I really doubt anyone here knows more than three or four
games perfectly. Even Bob Dancer says he only knows three.<g>
For most people, learning and remembering multiple strategies are much more
of a problem than boredom.

The problem I'm trying to deal with is the misinformation that penalty cards
are of consequence return-wise. Here's an illustrative story. A couple of
weeks ago I was at the Gambling Book Shop to present the new Frugal Strategy
cards. I discussed terms with Howard Schwartz for a bit then he left me to
one of his people (I didn't really catch his name, I'm afraid) who was a
video poker expert. He looked at the cards and said that the return I show on
them couldn't be right (Note: they only show two decimal places). I asked why
not and he told me that they didn't have penalty cards included and therefore
couldn't return that high a percentage.
Of course, I explained to him that that the percentage had been calculated
using the FVP software and that pens just don't add up to enough to show up
in two decimal places, but he still looked skeptical. I credit Bob with doing
a great job in this regard. In his columns over the years, he has frequently
dealt with penalty situations, commenting on how much it will cost each time
you play one of them "incorrectly". The problem is, one needs to know how
often that situation will come up in order to know how much it will actually
cost you. Most people., I think, believed that when you add ALL those penalty
situations together they would make a really insignifcant difference.

Dan Paymar disagreed and created cards that had few if any penalty
situations, and so did Jazbo Burns, who had software that could calculate a
return for a strategy (as did another gentleman I corresponded with a few
years ago), but those programs were not available to the general public. I
turned out that Dan, (who generally indicated that the return for his
stragies was about .02% less than perfect), was actually very conservative in
his estimates, as Jazbo pointed out a couple of years ago. Dan underestimated
the return of his strategies and I think this also added to the belief than
non pen-cd strategies were noticeably inferior ev-wise.

The development of FVP has helped change all that but there are still some
skeptics.

···

--
Thanks!
Skip

Skip Hughes
http://www.vphomepage.com/

Oops.

Skip Hughes wrote:

The problem is, one needs to know how
often that situation will come up in order to know how much it will actually
cost you. Most people, I think, believed that when you add ALL those penalty
situations together they would make a really insignifcant difference.

That should have read "Most people, I think, believed that when you add ALL those
penalty
situations together they would make a really significant difference."

···

--
Thanks!
Skip

Skip Hughes
http://www.vphomepage.com/

ok, i'll confess to knowing more than three perfectly:

pick'em, does that count?

all the games with two pair returns 2 are pretty straight forward:
jacks, bonus, aces & eights, ...

3-2-2-1 deuces (full pay type)

10/7 and 10/7/80 double bonus and all american (though in all of
these games it's easy to make a mistake when trying to play fast)

9-6 bonus deluxe

kings or better joker and 4-3-2-1 deuces (nsu type) get pretty ugly,
not sure if anyone has actually even derived the perfect strategy let
alone play it - i play these with simplified strategy

i haven't played enough of 20-10-6-5 two pair or better joker to
remember where that one stands, ditto for double joker poker

that's all that comes to mind at the moment

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Skip Hughes <skip-hughes@e...> wrote:

I really doubt anyone here knows more than three or four
games perfectly. Even Bob Dancer says he only knows three.<g>

You may "know" those games perfectly, but are they played perfectly?

.....bl

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Skip Hughes <skip-hughes@e...>

wrote:

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "pal16r8" <pal16r8@y...> wrote:

> I really doubt anyone here knows more than three or four
> games perfectly. Even Bob Dancer says he only knows three.<g>

ok, i'll confess to knowing more than three perfectly: